A question about sin

[Ailanthus]

Hi all!
I've been talking with a co-worker about God and the Bible. I'm not sure if he is a true believer. I think he does believe, but I'm not sure if he's actually asked Christ into his life.
Anyway, he's read many parts of the Bible and has been asking me many questions. One of the questions he asked was: Is Judas Iscariot in heaven or hell? without even thinking, I said "probably in hell, since he killed himself." He then informed me that the whole belief about suicide being unforgivable is from the Catholic denomination. As he explained, Catholics believe a person cannot enter heaven with unrepented sin. So, a person who commits suicide has taken their own life (murder) without having a chance to ask forgiveness; therefore, that person suffers an eternity in hell.
I am not Catholic, but I am curious to hear from both Catholics and Protestants on this.
This whole conversation got me to thinking about sin and unrepented sin. Here's a scenario for example: I am a Christian as I believe that Christ died for my sins. He is the ultimate savior of my life. Let's say that I told a lie to my wife about money (or whatever). three minutes later, I get in my car and get killed in a fatal crash. am I not allowed into heaven because of that one unrepented sin?

Thanks in advance for your answers!

 

[bunced]

I think this one is most eloquently answered by the words of Brother Cadfael in the series by Ellis Peters:

"He died unshriven" says the main character in the book
Cadfael replies;"Through no fault of his own. So do many. So have saints, martyred without warning. God knows the record without needing word or gesture. It's for the soul facing death that the want of shriving is pain. The soul gone beyond knows that pain for needless vanity. Penitence is in the heart, not in the words spoken"

and also

"And Unshriven!" cried Brother Mark.
"...there's many a man gone through that gate without a safe-conduct, who will reach Heaven ahead of some who were escorted through with absolution and ceremony, and had their affairs in order. Kings and Princes of the Church may find shepherds and serfs preferred before them, and some who claim they have done great good, may have to give place to poor wretches who have done wrong and acknowledge it, and have tried to make amends."

I hope this is useful

 

[jive4005]

God says there is NOTHING that can separate us from His love (even suicide). Too bad that often doesn't work in reverse.

It's our own self-pride that keeps us away from God. How we deal with that false pride can lead us to destruction... or to paradise. It IS our choice.

Wanna write more... but gotta pray on it first!

His,
Rev J

 

[bliz]

It is impossible for us to have repented of every single sin we have committed. Mostly because we are so sinful, we often do not even realize we have sinned, so we see no need to repent.

There is one unforgivable sin - blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Suicide is not the unforgivable sin.

This concept may have begun with Catholics, but you will find that many Protestants erroneously believe it as well.

 

[wayfaring man]

Hi Ailanthus , and greetings all ,

May The Lord be pleased to guide our hearts , minds , and hands .

First of all , I'm led to say - it appears that , with our inherited sinful natures , we tend to pretend + pose as being knowledgeable beyond what is fit .

And this we generally do in order to try and compensate for feelings of insignificance .

But ( aside from the fact that our knowledge is incomplete at best ) , knowledge itself doesn't make us any better , or more of a person in The Eyes of Him Who Matters Most !

In fact pursuing / possessing it often makes us less desirable .

And this is because , thinking we know a lot is vainly proudful ; but understanding How Much We Are Loved , though largely ignorant , is profitably humbling .

For God abases the proud , and exalts the humble .

Because He seeks the company of those who can realistically perceive their place in His Creation . And is incompatible with delusion and deceit .

Case in point : The casting out of Adam and Eve from The Garden of Eden , after they ate of the forbidden fruit of the knowledge of good and evil .

Now concerning Judas Iscariot , what we can see in Scripture is that he was lost / condemned .

But to say , he was lost because he committed suicide , is an extremely narrow , incomplete perspective of his record .

Surely , suicide is ( at least in most cases ) , a serious offense . But Judas Iscariot wasn't lost / condemned because he committed suicide - He committed suicide because he was lost / condemned . And he was lost / condemned because he betrayed The Only One Who Loved Him With A Pure And Upright Heart !

Which is akin to " blasphemy of The Holy Spirit " ; because apparently there is a line , or a point of denying The Lord , which once crossed , is a " place of no return " .

And this is the " double edged " nature of receiving The Revelation of Jesus Christ . For once we receive His Revelation we can no longer live in denial to Him , ( as we once did in our ignorance ) , without being deeply affected by His Guiding Spirit grieving over our denials . And if we persist , and persist , and persist , our denials eventually will take the form of betrayal , wherein the conflict between us and Christ's Spirit becomes so heated , so sharp , that in such a state one can become compelled to " curse away " The Spirit , choosing condemnation over cooperation .

This is what happened to Judas Iscariot , and his testimony serves as a stark warning to all of us !

It would be wrong to assume that all suicides are for the same reason , or think we know what each is destined for ; there's so much we can't see , compared to the little we do perceive . And rather than explore , " how much more God is able to forgive " - we who have received The Revelation of Christ , should be focusing on how much we can show our appreciation for what has already been forgiven .

It is true that repentance is stated as necessary in Scripture . Whether someone in the process of killing themself has the ability , or opportunity to repent , would have to be reckoned on a case by case basis . ( Which at this point is not really our place to undertake .) Surely , taking one's own life is a desperate measure , which dramatically increases the potential that someone was / is condemned . Especially if committed in such a way as to take others with them !

In Judas Iscariot's case however , The Verdict is given in The Holy Bible .


Some relative + supporting Scripture .


And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. <-----> Genesis 3:22-24

Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
But if any man love God, the same is known of him. <-----> 1st Corinthians 8:1-3

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. <-----> 1st Corinthians 13:1+2

Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. <-----> James 4:5-10

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. <-----> John 17:12 ( Words of Jesus )

Psalm 109 , esp. vs. 6,7+8

Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.
And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money. <-----> Luke 22:3-5

And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. <-----> Acts 1:15-20

Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. <-----> Matthew 27:3-5

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? <-----> Hebrews 10:26-29

Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Neither give place to the devil.
Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. <-----> Ephesians 4:26-30

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. <-----> 2nd Corinthians 3:17

For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. <-----> Galatians 5:13

Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. <-----> John 12:4-6

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. <-----> Galatians 6:7+8

He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. <-----> Luke 16:10-13 ( Words of Jesus )

There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. <-----> Luke 13:1-5

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. <-----> Hebrews 12:14-17

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. <-----> Hebrews 6:4-8

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; <-----> 2nd Peter 3:9-15

May The Lord Be Pleased To Bless .

wm

 

[Johnnz]

We have failed to understand just what Jesus accomplished for us. The New Covenant made was between the Father and Jesus. It did not require any input from us. God accepted the total adequacy of Jesus' sacrifice. This is what justification means, a complete righteousness given to us through that covenant.

And it is by grace, a pure gift from God. We can never meet God's standards no matter how hard we try, as God requires total perfection. That is why we need God's gift of salvation through what Jesus achieved with God on our behalf.

So, you are always totally forgiven. Its a matter of living that out in the confidence of that security. All else is religious works and striving and that will never do.

John
NZ

 

[wayfaring man]

" Always totally forgiven " ?

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. <-----> Matthew 12:30-33

That's not what Jesus says in Scripture !

wm

 

[BrBob]

Wayfaring,

don't miss the 'heart condition' referenced above. Being saved is a condition of our hearts, not our mouths. We are commanded to confess Christ after we are saved, but it, like baptism, is a reflection of what is in the heart, not the other way around. So, "always, totally forgiven" is a phrase that means, 'as long as my heart is true to God and I am part of Him, then I am always and totally forgiven." There may be a time when our hearts change and we are not forgiven because our hearts reject that forgiveness. The confession of our mouths have nothing to do with that fact of salvation. If our salvation depended on our confession and forgiveness only came from verbal confession, then we would be relying on our own works, not grace.

Thanks
Bob
Spearfish, SD

 

[wayfaring man]

Wayfaring,

don't miss the 'heart condition' referenced above. Being saved is a condition of our hearts, not our mouths. We are commanded to confess Christ after we are saved, but it, like baptism, is a reflection of what is in the heart, not the other way around. So, "always, totally forgiven" is a phrase that means, 'as long as my heart is true to God and I am part of Him, then I am always and totally forgiven." There may be a time when our hearts change and we are not forgiven because our hearts reject that forgiveness. The confession of our mouths have nothing to do with that fact of salvation. If our salvation depended on our confession and forgiveness only came from verbal confession, then we would be relying on our own works, not grace.

Thanks
Bob
Spearfish, SD

Hi Bob ,

It seems your assertions are addressing a peripheral debate , and not the crux of my contention .

My contention is that telling people that they are / can be " always totally forgiven " , is the equivalent to saying , " we can sin with impunity " , or there is really no grave danger in resisting / rejecting God's Revealed Will " . And this sounds an awful lot like what satan said to Eve when he urged her to take that which God had forbidden . And as such , it is an overstatement , and an overstatement , ( like an understatement ) is fundamentally unsound , ( to put it mildly ).

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: <-----> Genesis 3:1-4

Also , if we're " always totally forgiven " , what advantage is there to being one who earnestly seeks to walk uprightly before God - if sin has no negative consequence , because we're " always totally forgiven " , why advantage is there in resisting temptation ? Why not just go with " the flow " , seeing we're " always totally forgiven " ?

Let us hear from God's Word on this matter -

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. <-----> John 14:21-24

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. <-----> Matthew 7:18-23

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. <-----> 2nd Corinthians 6:14-18

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. <-----> 1st Corinthians 6:9-11

Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: <-----> Ephesians 5:1-8

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God. <-----> Romans 2:9-11

Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God. <-----> 3rd John 1:11

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. <-----> 1st John 3:4-10

So basically , as it is shown to this servant , the devil is still trying to convince us that we can willfully disobey God's Revealed Will for us , and everything will still be okay . And this Satan does , because he knows that if we begin to see our true need , with the genuine gravity inherent therein , why we might just " call upon The Name of The Lord " with our whole heart , and be altogether delivered from his manipulative control . So he ( the devil ) tries to appeal to our sentimentality and our desire for things to be smooth and easy ; and counsels us not to be alarmed , nor stirred in our spirit , speaking to us smooth and easy things , which are designed to lull us into a false sense of security ; that we remain comfortably under his spell of rebellion to God .

I don't claim to have found the complete liberty for which my soul seeks ; but do declare that my soul refuses to cease seeking , until that Liberty is fully realized . And in this matter others are either for that Liberty or against it ; depending on whose bidding they are primarily responding to , either Christ's or Satan's .

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. <-----> John 8:31-36

In the next post I'll address the peripheral issue , Lord willing .

wm

 

[BrBob]

No, I'm not addressing a peripheral issue. I'm addressing the crux of the matter. It seems to me that you are skirting around the point made above, that we are forgiven, but that in no way gives license to sin.

I'm talking about Romans Chapter 6 here. Check it out:

Rom 6:1
WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2
Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
Rom 6:3
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Rom 6:6
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Rom 6:7
For he who has died has been freed from sin.
Rom 6:8
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Rom 6:9
knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
Rom 6:10
For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Rom 6:11
Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 6:12
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
Rom 6:13
And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
Rom 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
Rom 6:16
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Rom 6:17
But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
Rom 6:18
And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
Rom 6:19
I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
Rom 6:20
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Rom 6:21
What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22
But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
Rom 6:23
[FONT=&quot]For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.[/FONT]

Paul admonishes us to walk in the grace of God, not by works and at the same time he tells us that we are to purpose ourselves to steer clear of sin because that is what those who live in Christ do. It flows from the heart out.

I'm not into debate and argument verse upon verse because that tends to draw people away from the real purpose God has for us, relationship with Him. Knowing the word is excellent but arguing about it is a waste of time. Discussing the word without argument is a good thing - up to a point. When we get to where we are discussing the word more than living it, in other words, trying to 'be right' so to speak, then we are into works, not relationship.

God Bless
Bob
Spearfish, SD

 

[wayfaring man]

Wayfaring,

don't miss the 'heart condition' referenced above. Being saved is a condition of our hearts, not our mouths. We are commanded to confess Christ after we are saved, but it, like baptism, is a reflection of what is in the heart, not the other way around.

Hello again Bob ,

Are the words of our mouth necessarily a true reflection of our heart ?

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. <-----> Matthew 12:24-27

When Jesus asks the opening question above , he's alluding to the fact that the human hearts are often - " deceitful + desperately wicked " ( Jeremiah 17:9 ).

Many feign allegiance and goodness with their tongue , plagiarizing and adulterating the Good Word from above .

And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness. <-----> Ezekiel 33:31

Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. <-----> Isaiah 29:13+14

Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. <-----> Matthew 15:7-9 ( Words of Jesus )

So, "always, totally forgiven" is a phrase that means, 'as long as my heart is true to God and I am part of Him, then I am always and totally forgiven."

Here , I would agree that we are certainly forgiven for all that we have done in the past - those things for which we have found the gift of repentance for - so that we are no longer therein " being untrue to God " .

But if this is meant to say , " as long as my heart is true to God , then no matter what I do , it won't be held against me , or cause any real loss or pain " ?
Then such would only be true , if the nature of our " heart being true to God " was such that it excluded any willful rebellion against His Revealed Will .

Human nature tries to find a way of being rewarded like a winner , even though living as a loser ... and this isn't the Fruit of Salvation , it's a goal of the false gospel , where we're " saved " in concept , but not in practice . And while there is certainly a generous " space " given us by the longsuffering of God for embracing Salvation's concept - that space is specifically given so that the concept of Salvation can become an effectual reality in the here and now , and not so that we can become comfortable with the idea that the concept alone is sufficient .

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. <-----> James 1:22-15

And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
But [ Jesus ] said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. <-----> Luke 11:27+28

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great. <-----> Luke 6:46-49 ( Teaching of Jesus )

There may be a time when our hearts change and we are not forgiven because our hearts reject that forgiveness.

As in -

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. <-----> Matthew 24:12+13

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. <-----> Matthew 6:14+15

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. <-----> Romans 2:1

Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. <-----> Matthew 18:23-35

Continued next post -

 

[wayfaring man]

Continued from last post -

The confession of our mouths have nothing to do with that fact of salvation. If our salvation depended on our confession and forgiveness only came from verbal confession, then we would be relying on our own works, not grace.

Thanks
Bob
Spearfish, SD

Here dear Bob , the above assertions appear to be seriously lacking Word of God Insight .

1. The confession of our mouths does indeed have something to do with the " fact of salvation " !

As it is written -

If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. <-----> Leviticus 26:40-42

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. <-----> 1st John 1:9+10

Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. <-----> Luke 12:8+9

Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. <-----> Mark 8:38

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. <-----> Romans 19:9-11

Of course this requires that our confessions be honest ones - which is really the main point of confession , namely , to speak the truth before God and man . For then does God hear our words and accept our speech !

Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God. <-----> Psalm 50:23

Surely God will not hear vanity, neither will the Almighty regard it. <-----> Job 35:15

LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart. ... <-----> Psalm 15:1+2

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. <-----> Matthew 12:36+37 ( Words of Jesus )

Our ability to speak aright is a confirmation that God's Spirit of Grace has been effectively drawn upon and applied . One can have a measure of grace given unto them , and then fail to treasure and apply the virtue thereof , which would lead to such things as the absence of an honest confession in our life ; which would be condemning to us , because God has made such available to us , and possible for us , through Christ .

So that , now , if we make honest confessions , this demonstrates that we have taken and applied God's Gift appropriately , and that creates a God-given sufficiency which succinctly , " turns to our Salvation " .

True Grace enables us - it does not relieve us of our duties to God & Christ .

Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. <-----> 2nd Timothy 2:1

We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. <-----> 2nd Corinthians 6:1

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee. <-----> Titus 2:11-15

In 1st Peter 5:12 , the apostle declares that he has written - " declaring the true grace of God , wherein [ we ] stand ".

Now he was led to distinguish this " grace " as " the true grace " , because there is also a " false grace " which is wrongly attributed to God , " wherein none of us can stand " . Which is referred to in the passage below .

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. <-----> Jude 1:3+4

" turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness "
If one looks up the meaning of " lasciviousness " it means a fleshly , lustful , wantonness - particularly the kind which tries to arouse the same in others .

Now when someone says something along the lines of - Oh , sweety , you can lie with me , all will be forgiven . or some such assertion which fails to link God's law of sowing and reaping with our choices at hand - that is an effort towards taking God's grace ( His Willingness to forgive and restore ) and perversely turning it into something which promotes the idea of committing more and more sin , as if , " it's no big deal " .

Well , what about Jesus dying on The Cross - was that a " big deal " ? And if it was - how can we continue in the things for which He suffered so , on our behalf , as though it's not a " matter of major importance " !

Oh , now I remember how , by listening to smooth and easy things which prophesy peace where there is no peace !

That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us. <-----> Isaiah 30:9-11

For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken. <-----> Jeremiah 6:13-17

[ Note above , how it says " They have healed the hurt slightly - such smooth deceits can makes us " feel better " , for a little while ; but they cannot rouse our spirit unto merging with The Holy One , where we not only " feel better " - we think and do better ! It takes the unadulterated truth in Christ-like love to do that .

This is how The Lord talks to me , concerning the things that were written .

Hope you are well in Christ's Care !

wm

 

[wayfaring man]

No, I'm not addressing a peripheral issue. I'm addressing the crux of the matter. It seems to me that you are skirting around the point made above, that we are forgiven, but that in no way gives license to sin.

I'm talking about Romans Chapter 6 here. Check it out:


Paul admonishes us to walk in the grace of God, not by works and at the same time he tells us that we are to purpose ourselves to steer clear of sin because that is what those who live in Christ do. It flows from the heart out.

I'm not into debate and argument verse upon verse because that tends to draw people away from the real purpose God has for us, relationship with Him. Knowing the word is excellent but arguing about it is a waste of time. Discussing the word without argument is a good thing - up to a point. When we get to where we are discussing the word more than living it, in other words, trying to 'be right' so to speak, then we are into works, not relationship.

God Bless
Bob
Spearfish, SD

Hi again Bob ,

I agree with the emphasis supported by Romans Chapter 6 .

The truth is we do walk in grace with works - the difference between " dead " and " living works " , is that dead ones are assertions of the flesh , and living ones are movement / actions of The Spirit .

So grace and works do certainly go together , when those works are wrought by God !

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. <-----> Philippians 2:12+13

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. <-----> Ephesians 2:8-10

I'm not trying to be argumentative , but to contend for the faith , as I have been able to receive it , without going beyond what is meet .

But if you'd rather keep things " short and sweet " that's your prerogative .

Peace and Joy In Christ's Righteousness !

wm

 

[Johnnz]

Hi Bob ,

It seems your assertions are addressing a peripheral debate , and not the crux of my contention .

My contention is that telling people that they are / can be " always totally forgiven " , is the equivalent to saying , " we can sin with impunity " , or there is really no grave danger in resisting / rejecting God's Revealed Will " .

Also , if we're " always totally forgiven " , what advantage is there to being one who earnestly seeks to walk uprightly before God - if sin has no negative consequence , because we're " always totally forgiven " , why advantage is there in resisting temptation ? Why not just go with " the flow " , seeing we're " always totally forgiven " ?

Let us hear from God's Word on this matter -

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. <-----> John 14:21-24

In the next post I'll address the peripheral issue , Lord willing .
wm

Hi,

Your first point "we can sin with impunity". Paul addressed this very issue in response to what he had presented as salvation by grace.
Rom 3:5-8 But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" Why not say &#8212; as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say &#8212; "Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved. NIV. That is your argument, but Paul goes on from there with that objection to his message of grace having been raised. he concludes a little later
Rom 3:24-25 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. NIV

You see, if our righteousness requires some effort or contribution on our part then what Jesus achieved when He said "It is finished" was untrue. He had only secured part of our salvation. The rest of it is up to us. The writer of Hebrews unequivocally sets out the utter completeness of what Jesus had done for us.
Heb 10:11-18 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
v 18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
Christ's sacrifice was for all sin, else He would need to die over and over again argues the writer.
V 15-17 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts will remember no more."

These verses can be related to the ones you quoted from John. Obedience and love can be linked in two ways. One is to see obedience as proof of love. God loves in proportion to our obedience.

The other is to see obedience as a natural outworking of love. Because I love God I will obey Him. This is what the writer of those verses from Hebrews is saying. The old covenant depended on obedience to laws - something external. The New Covenant puts God's desires within (through the indwelling Holy Spirit) and that engenders our willing obedience born of inner desire. An example is marriage. Do I use a book of rules to follow to prove my love for my wife? Or is showing my love for her very natural, something that just flows from within me?

A gospel of grace plus law is ultimately blasphemous. It denies the completeness of the sacrifice of Jesus. A gospel that uplifts me, through my 'good works' sufficiently enough to warrant God's acceptance and pleasure makes me an idolater, someone who serves a false image of God.

Law produces sin, condemnation and death according to the NT. Little wonder so many Christians struggle with guilt, condemnation, discouragement and lack of motivation. I know of a Gospel that is an inner well, constantly issuing life and vitality. It is the gift of Jesus life to me made possible by the completeness of his sacrifice. Out of that abundance I live and serve in spite of all my shortcomings, of which I have many.

John
NZ

 

[wayfaring man]

Greetings ,

In an effort to be concise -

When God calls the things which are not as though they were - it's prophecy .

When man tries to do the same - it's bearing false witness .

Salvation has two main components : mercy + grace .

1. Mercy - The Atoning Power of Christ's Blood for sins that are past , which gives us a " clean slate ".

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; <-----> Romans 3:24+25

2. Grace - The Regenerating Power of Christ's Resurrection , which enables us to live righteously .

That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. <-----> Romans 5:21

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. <-----> Romans 6:14

Here's where things have gotten confused - By those thinking being under grace , means ongoing sin can no longer affect our relationship with God . Even to the point of claiming that those who bemoan sin's presence and travail in seeking to be set free are committing sacrilege against the truth !

Consider -

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, <-----> Hebrews 12:1

[ beset - means to thwart or trouble ]

[ thwart - means to hinder or prevent ]

For those who are ignorant and out of the way , sin hardly affects their relationship with God ... because they really don't have much of one !

But for us who've received , The Revelation of Christ and are entering into The Father's Holy Presence though Him - " sin does so easily beset us " - for we know better ; we have been given access to all that it takes to resist and overcome ; and we understand that where much is given , much is expected / required ! ( See Luke Chapter 12:41-18 )

So with the gift of grace present , continuing in sin is much more pronounced and troublesome than it ever was !

But Satan tries to makes things seem the reverse , because that way Christ can be claimed to be in possession , even though the fruit thereof is severely lacking . And " grace " can then appear to be minimally sufficient , thus rendering Salvation's witness inept .

Didn't Judas " know the Lord " , isn't that a major part of the reason that he was so condemned within himself that he was compelled to commit suicide ?

Wasn't Peter bitterly affected when he denied knowing The Lord , largely because he really did know Jesus ?!

How about the roman soldiers who cast lots for Jesus' garment ? There's no indication that their sin was besetting to them is there ? Why ? Because they didn't know Jesus !

Once a person receives The Revelation of Jesus , sin becomes very much besetting , and not less so .

If I feel guilty because I've recently done wrong , that's a good sign that I'm not so hardened as to be beyond being convicted with compunction .

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. <-----> 2nd Corinthians 7:10

It doesn't mean I'm lost , it means there's still things which yet have to be strengthened within by Christ's faith & God's grace . One needs not overly obsess over it , nor ought any try to merely , " sweep it under the rug " . We need to confess honestly , and acknowlege ( as God enables ) our true need . Claiming it's already taken care of , because Christ's Work is Complete , denies the reality that , if old sin's are still present in our life , then Christ's Work hasn't been fully realized within , and something has to change ; that's why even after faith in Christ there are many instructions for us to follow , which assist in the effectual receiving of The Gift of Salvation . One could fill a dozen posts with them !

In summary - Grace is a gift of Transforming Virtue which enables us to shine forth God's Love & Christ's Faith , steadfastly in righteousness , after Christ's Own Example , being as " the light of this world " ; it is not a warm and fuzzy blanket to hide our shameful selves under , nor a doctrine for attempting to justify perpetual sin , under the guise of having a " relationship " , with The Lord .

The following future folk claim that - but to no avail , because they did not have / receive the grace which changes them , their ways , + their works , effectually .

Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. <-----> Luke 13:24-27

This is how the matter is being related to me .

Peace & Joy , in Christ's Righteousness !

wm

 

[salida]

Judas - Most likely went to hell. Not just because he killed himself but he betrayed Jesus.

 

[Jocklen]

Yes, I do believe Judas went to hell because he thought he himself committed the unforgivable sin. He believed in Christ but he didn't think he could forgive him.

He pretty much shut out God as his creator and redeemer at the end of his life. Now if someone commits suicide with Christ in their heart then I do believe they could go to heaven. If someone believed in Christ and accepted him as his savior then I don't think God would condemn him for being too ashamed to be in this world and taking his own life. But that is just my opinion.

By the way Bliz, All sins are forgivable now matter what! I don't know where you got that blasphemy is an unforgivable sin. All it is is lying which is something everyone does on a day to day basis. And if anyone says they don't lie then they just lied themselves! We are all forgiven of any sin we truly repent of. None of our sins are greater than Jesus' death on the cross because that is the ultimate payment.

I would have a very hard time believing in a god that didn't give second chances (or infinite chances for that matter--I've used my second chance over a million times).

 

[bunced]

Judas and Peter both betrayed Jesus. Peter was forgiven. Judas didn't feel able to claim that forgiveness. And that is one of the saddest parts of the Bible that he couldn't go and accept love and grace.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Hi all!
I've been talking with a co-worker about God and the Bible. I'm not sure if he is a true believer. I think he does believe, but I'm not sure if he's actually asked Christ into his life.
Anyway, he's read many parts of the Bible and has been asking me many questions. One of the questions he asked was: Is Judas Iscariot in heaven or hell? without even thinking, I said "probably in hell, since he killed himself." He then informed me that the whole belief about suicide being unforgivable is from the Catholic denomination. As he explained, Catholics believe a person cannot enter heaven with unrepented sin. So, a person who commits suicide has taken their own life (murder) without having a chance to ask forgiveness; therefore, that person suffers an eternity in hell.
I am not Catholic, but I am curious to hear from both Catholics and Protestants on this.
This whole conversation got me to thinking about sin and unrepented sin. Here's a scenario for example: I am a Christian as I believe that Christ died for my sins. He is the ultimate savior of my life. Let's say that I told a lie to my wife about money (or whatever). three minutes later, I get in my car and get killed in a fatal crash. am I not allowed into heaven because of that one unrepented sin?

Thanks in advance for your answers!

It says that Judas repented of his sins, but it also says that it would have been better he were never born, so you decide.

 

[Ainustorm]

Yeah i like the thought couple posts up... Peter and Judas did betray Christ, but Peter repented and Judas did not. Peter cried out to Jesus in asking Him to forgive him. Judas from what scripture describes him, comes across someone who has lost hope. I believe he never saw Jesus as God nor as His savior. So he had no hope anymore... he betrayed a friend not a Savior in his eyes. Peter knew Jesus was God, and betrayed out of fear... just like most of us would have done in that position. They were two different betrayals... with to diff motives, and diff heart desires.

Sin is derived from the heart. I feel suicide is a sin, a selfish sin. But in scripture it does not state it is a sin of unforgiveness. All sin was forgiven by Jesus on the Cross. Acceptions, the blspheming the Holy Spirit. For someone to truelly be at that point, they would have to be unsaved, and hardened their heart from the existance of God. To have a complete hatred. Which in my eyes would be something that the Anti-christ and False Prophet would do.

But your friend is right... it was used by the Roman Catholics... to scare their followers. That would keep anyone takening their lives when they would burn ya or kill ya "falsely" for cleansing and forgiveness, lol.