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A question about Numbers 31.

2PhiloVoid

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Then did Israel adopt women and children from the nations they fought in wars? In Deuteronomy it is said that when Israel went to war with nations, they were to take their women and children.

Which nations are you speaking about, Sam? There were two different sets of conditions of warfare regarding two separate sets of nations?
 
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NannaNae

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in a long shot I started to research midianites.. it is suspected that there was an influx of Sea people who overcame a sem-ite population.. and if you know anything about the real hercules you know that he was a piece of work..

Islam and Pedophilia - WikiIslam
this would be hints of some very old stuff ..
I had read that in Islam it was ok for men to bugger baby boys up to a certain age and not allowed to touch little girls.. by the Quran .
Afghanistan's dirty little secret - SFGate

really sea people/ giants and canaanites ie hercules etc.. were horrible baby buggers.
with only the male children... who were not considered to be males until they were a certain age. very twisted ! so by that they wiggle out of quran and God's laws, thus justify it and slither out by their own justifications and by 'traditions" ..

and that article above is maybe remnants from these very old roots that God hates > and God must have wanted to try and end it .
if that was the case, well that might explain why God told them to do what he did especially if the baby boys were not virgins and were diseased.

the boys were probably diseased and just messed up in their head forever.. .
I mean somethings you can't fix , you can only start over. but you can't fix it until Jesus Spirit to indwell us , even then it is nearly impossible to become unbound to what binds us ..
 
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Sammy-San

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in a long shot I started to research midianites.. it is suspected that there was an influx of Sea people who overcame a sem-ite population.. and if you know anything about the real hercules you know that he was a piece of work..

Islam and Pedophilia - WikiIslam
this would be hints of some very old stuff ..
I had read that in Islam it was ok for men to bugger baby boys up to a certain age and not allowed to touch little girls.. by the Quran .
Afghanistan's dirty little secret - SFGate

really sea people/ giants and canaanites ie hercules etc.. were horrible baby buggers.
with only the male children... who were not considered to be males until they were a certain age. very twisted ! so by that they wiggle out of quran and God's laws, thus justify it and slither out by their own justifications and by 'traditions" ..

and that article above is maybe remnants from these very old roots that God hates > and God must have wanted to try and end it .
if that was the case, well that might explain why God told them to do what he did especially if the baby boys were not virgins and were diseased.

the boys were probably diseased and just messed up in their head forever.. .
I mean somethings you can't fix , you can only start over. but you can't fix it until Jesus Spirit to indwell us , even then it is nearly impossible to become unbound to what binds us ..

How does sea people and Islam connecte wo what the Midianites did? I dont quite understand this.
 
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Sammy-San

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Which nations are you speaking about, Sam? There were two different sets of conditions of warfare regarding two separate sets of nations?[/QUOTE]

So why did Israel view the Midianite boys as a threat, but not the boys from other nations? This is confusing.
 
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Sammy-San

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From a practical standpoint, we could deliberate all day as to specifically what a moral and/or ethical perspective might be in relation to Numbers 31. So, as Christians, I think the best approach in explaining this passage is to evaluate it from within a Biblical framework rather than one relying mostly on a secular or philosophical one.

Good summation of the passage, so I won’t elaborate upon it.

From a Biblical standpoint, we can’t really say that the children were innocent. Sure, technically, they were innocent, if by this we view it through the lens of modern, secular human rights. But, since we are instead applying the bible as our conceptual framework, we can’t say that the children were innocent. It seems to me that what we see in this passage is the ramification of a ‘national sin’ on the part of Midian, one which invokes the penalty of God’s wrath upon all of the offending people, as seen in the 1st Commandment, “…for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me” (Exodus 20:5 NASB). Here we see that God may apply His penalty for idolatry upon an inter-generational set of people.

What we also need to see here is that the girls did not receive differential treatment simply because they were girls, or even because they were virgins, but that even though they were ALSO under the death penalty, they could be spared willfully by Israelite men for the purpose of becoming sexually untainted wives. Otherwise, they too were under ‘the ban.’

Actually, you may be thinking of Deuteronomy 24:16, specifically, a verse that reflects the penal code for ‘personal sins’ of parents wherein children are not to be inculcated along with the parents. However, in looking at Midian, we should remember that what Midian did as a nation by pulling Israel into idolatry and sexual sin was not done at merely a personal level, so everyone in Moab was subject to the penalty of the transgression. (We should keep in mind also that men of Israel who consorted with the women of Midian and Moab were also subject to the death penalty.)

Same as above, Sam. I know that from today’s perspective, it seems really harsh and/or inconsistent ethically, but God still today has and expresses a personal trait of Holiness, and as a derivative of that, there also exists a Holiness code over His creation. We don’t see that code applied very often in Christianity because, for the most part, Jesus absorbed those penalties for us, as long as we are walking in the New Covenant faith.

It is one explanation, but I think the ongoing presence of God’s Holy Being and His Holy code over creation is what explains the intensity and the extent of this passage the best. The young girls simply got a second chance because they had utility, which sounds crass, but their sexual purity was the *only* thing that made them valuable.


Actually, Deuteronomy 20 refers specifically to warfare limitations which Israel was to abide by when going to war with people of “far off” nations, and not the peoples belonging to one of the SEVEN nations nearby which God had specifically delineated for complete elimination (see Deut. 20:14-18).


Again, I agree that all of this is tragic and sad, particularly since in our modern times we’ve been able to articulate what seem to be “superior” ethics. But we should be aware that today’s ethical systems are ‘founded’ on principles that are either not self-evident to all, or on highly contested ideologies.


Peace
2PhiloVoid

If God wanted the Midianites wiped out, how do you explain them reappearing in Judges and attacking Israel? Moses orders didnt wipe out their nation.
 
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NannaNae

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How does sea people and Islam connecte wo what the Midianites did? I dont quite understand this.
sam did you read those links I posted.... you should.. I can only lead you to the water. :thumbsup:

mankind likes their "traditions".. throw in some very foundational laws that visit the sins of the fathers on the third generation. and sure you can't wipe it out. no matter how much God would want to ....... men love their traditions.... traditions..
 
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NannaNae

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you would be assuming two things.
that every clan of every Midianites had been captured and that none escaped. not likely in a very Portable NOMADIC society!
you would also be assuming that they were patriarchal societies. when that is most likely not the case.
that idea assumes either they got them all or that there wasn't captured women who went back from Israel to Midian desert. it only takes one. I don't think God was trying to wipe anyone from the map but to punish them for their nasty
traditions.. and maybe he really like those little Girls more :p!

so proof it was at least in part matriarchal

1st because of the sea people influences ( see wikipedia I posted) on trade networks and traditions were matriarchal ... and
by that simple fact that the little girls were virgins. they had not been touched but now in patriarchal societies it is the little girls who are slaves/ raped by the men... because 'it 's traditional' it is even a holy tradition even sometimes... some feast to some god !

the issue in common is the 'sins of the fathers'. get it..

Islam has absorbed every kind of matriarchal and patriarchal tribe around for thousands of miles. so run!! don't stop !! because everyone is now game... and they all still do their old
"traditions" men/ the fathers like their holy traditions. Like holy wars of raping and pillaging.. and drunk orgies to their gods.

let's take a look at modern day slavery .... Modern slavery , current exceptable or tolerated slavery ....and let's remember what countries have tried hardest to get rid of such
"traditional practices of their fathers "!

Findings - Walk Free Foundation - Global Slavery Index 2014
 
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Sammy-San

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sam did you read those links I posted.... you should.. I can only lead you to the water. :thumbsup:

mankind likes their "traditions".. throw in some very foundational laws that visit the sins of the fathers on the third generation. and sure you can't wipe it out. no matter how much God would want to ....... men love their traditions.... traditions..

If children being guilty for the sins of their parents was just human tradition, why was God telling the Israelites to act based on those principles?
 
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Archie the Preacher

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Superhero Sam said:
What makes you think God approved of Moses actions? God told him to go to war with Midian, but he didnt tell him to kill all of the male children.
I see. God did not instruct Moses to issue commands to kill the male children. Moses did that on his own.

If you recall, Moses did not enter the Promised Land as a result of his disobedience to God in the matter of getting water from the rock on the second occasion. God specifically told Moses about the disobedience.

But I don't recall God mentioning this incident to Moses. Can you show me where that dialog between God and Moses is recorded?
 
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NannaNae

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If children being guilty for the sins of their parents was just human tradition, why was God telling the Israelites to act based on those principles?
prove it is just a "human tradition"?
defiled is defiled.. perversion is guilty and little buggers to grow up to be big buggers..
tell us how else you would stop the cycles of abuse to children ?
tell us how you would do that with people who have giving you no right in their presence? No rights to their children? No rights in their societies ?
how would you stop the cycle of abuse ?
because it must stop or no one lives in peace.
hell knows that ... and that is the reason it is traditional for everyone to bugger up someone..
 
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NannaNae

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since Adam
Children are guilty of sin , we are born of sin, we are all born under sin...... now since Jesus it is not held against them eternally when a child dies as a child.. , until the age of accountability but they are still guilty now not eternally .
But until they make their own sins or make the choice to walk right before him .
but we are all guilty and we all deserve to die , we are all dying now, we are all decaying now, we are all de- evolving now , by our choices ... he is just patient as possible and still protect those he can, those he is allowed to .
what all the others do is not under his domain, it is not his to control.. except to wipe out the kings and or to wipe the people from the earth to stop a cycle of mongering.
 
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NannaNae

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Sammy-San

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since Adam
Children are guilty of sin , we are born of sin, we are all born under sin...... now since Jesus it is not held against them eternally when a child dies as a child.. , until the age of accountability but they are still guilty now not eternally .
But until they make their own sins or make the choice to walk right before him .
but we are all guilty and we all deserve to die , we are all dying now, we are all decaying now, we are all de- evolving now , by our choices ... he is just patient as possible and still protect those he can, those he is allowed to .
what all the others do is not under his domain, it is not his to control.. except to wipe out the kings and or to wipe the people from the earth to stop a cycle of mongering.

So youre saying children who died before Jesus's death on the cross, went to hell? What biblical verses support that claim?
 
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Sammy-San

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I already showed you that , it is the promise fulfilled in christ sacrifice that is the GOOD NEWS !! in EZ it will be ! IT is a promise of the new way.. it is not the old way which was in effect during Numbers 31 . if someone is going to try and answer your questions. you should really read the scriptures posted probably understand their roots and their context too.
well I hope that helps. good bye!

Show me in the context of Ezekiel 18, where its speaking of a prophecy of Jesus's sacrifice.
 
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NannaNae

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you really don't understand authority at all do you?

children under the age of accountability are not NOW OR THEN>....held eternally guilty before the age of accountability for anything.
they WERE THEN held physically guilty for the sins of their fathers because they could only become their fathers...and owned by the same curse as that of our fathers that all humanity is, was and will be held to , thus has the same guilt/ same authority all other authorities/ powers which will be judged and thrown into the pit .
but in Christ we are not now held responsible and judged for their sins, only our own sins physically.

we are born guilty= under death , only free'd by a new ownership and a new authority, HIM = LIFE ..
i'm done, bye!
 
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NannaNae

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EZ he is talking to HIS nation Israel, they were under his authority .

not other nations who were not under his authority and had no way to become anything except for what their fathers were.
the fulfillment of this change in authority for everyone else not Israel , is in christ only.
because only in christ do we not become our fathers or do their sins.

truth was promised to and or given to Israel first as a picture , a revealing of authority. then that becomes as a promise to the rest of the world when and if they come under that same authorities/ powers in high place/ laws / Gifts / truth .
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Superhero Sam
Which nations are you speaking about, Sam? There were two different sets of conditions of warfare regarding two separate sets of nations?[/QUOTE]

So why did Israel view the Midianite boys as a threat, but not the boys from other nations? This is confusing.

Ummm....no, Sam. Israel saw both sets of males as a threat, because in both sets, the males all are executed.

Let's clear this up a little. What you need to understand is that Moab and Midian both were originally exempt from all of this warfare and land taking....until they not only opposed Israel, but conspired to pull Israel into idolatry and sexual sin via by using women. Once that occurred, Moab and Midian came under 'the ban' like the other nations. The Midian virgins basically lucked out, because they could have been subject to the death penalty as well.

Yes, by today's so-called ethical 'standards,' (or what should actually be called 'ethical assumptions') what I've described above sucks. But, it also shows us that God is not to be trifled with. God is love; He is also holy, and we just don't have any more understanding today of the significance of holiness. Why? Basically, it is because we no longer care, and we think we know better.

Peace
 
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Archie the Preacher

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2PhiloVoid said:
Yes, by today's so-called ethical 'standards,' (or what should actually be called 'ethical assumptions') what I've described above sucks. But, it also shows us that God is not to be trifled with. God is love; He is also holy, and we just don't have any more understanding today of the significance of holiness. Why? Basically, it is because we no longer care, and we think we know better.
Very well said indeed.
 
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Sammy-San

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Superhero Sam

Ummm....no, Sam. Israel saw both sets of males as a threat, because in both sets, the males all are executed.

Let's clear this up a little. What you need to understand is that Moab and Midian both were originally exempt from all of this warfare and land taking....until they not only opposed Israel, but conspired to pull Israel into idolatry and sexual sin via by using women. Once that occurred, Moab and Midian came under 'the ban' like the other nations. The Midian virgins basically lucked out, because they could have been subject to the death penalty as well.

Yes, by today's so-called ethical 'standards,' (or what should actually be called 'ethical assumptions') what I've described above sucks. But, it also shows us that God is not to be trifled with. God is love; He is also holy, and we just don't have any more understanding today of the significance of holiness. Why? Basically, it is because we no longer care, and we think we know better.

Peace

1-Where does Deuteronomy say that all males of the enemy nation were to be killed in warfare? It doesnt say all males including children-it only says adult males, who were obviously soldiers fighting in war. Youre taking that verse out of context.

2-But why was the entire nation of thousands punished for the actions of a few? Numbers 25 only says that one Midianite woman was with an israelite. It doesnt imply the entire nation was involved in tempting them to sin.
 
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