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A question about fundamentalist stereotypes

hedrick

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Major American values do NOT view homosexuality as positive and normal. It wouldn't matter regardless. The Christian position should be a Bible Position, and the Bible position is bluntly and simply - homosexual acts are WRONG and SIN. The Bible position obviously hasn't changed, nor will it.

Please remember, I am not expressing an opinion on the merits of the case. I'm not a fundamentalist, so that would be inappropriate. I will not reply to your comments about the Bible's position.

I am commenting only on the original topic of the thread, which is attitudes towards fundamentalists. And what is relevant there is not what the Bible says, but what non-fundamentalists think about fundamentalists.

Take a look at this: Americans' Acceptance of Gay Relations Crosses 50% Threshold.

Look particularly at the age distribution and at the distribution by religion. They don't break it down in much detail among different Christian groups, but the little breakdown they give shows quite a high degree of variation there. At any rate, it is quite clear that non-Christians almost all see homosexuality as OK, and that among Christians, more liberal, and younger are more likely to see it that way as well. Furthermore, attitudes are changing fairly rapidly, particularly among Catholics, who I take it are the closest to moderate to liberal Christians in this poll, and among political moderates.

Thus I think there's plenty of reason for people to see opposition to homosexuality as coming from conservative Christians. If most of the folks come to think of it as a civil rights issue (and I believe that's the common rhetoric), then I believe my comparison with being on the wrong side of the civil rights battle is correct. Not as a fair assessment, but as how people will see the situation.

I am *NOT* talking about the Bible or what Christians should think. I am talking about people's perception of Christian attitudes, particularly conservative Christians. Which I thought was the question.
 
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nChrist

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I could care less about the poll you linked to, nor do I care about the numbers or mix of people promoting homosexual acts. In other words, I didn't click the link because I'm not interested. Further, if I take a Biblical stance I could care less what others think of me for taking that stance. I'm a real Christian, so I'll take the Holy Bible and God's Ways. This shouldn't be isolated to the views of fundamentalist or conservative Christians.

Repeated:

Being a real Christian isn't a popularity contest, a polling matter, or a majority rules issue. Being a real Christian is a personal issue and relationship with God with the Holy Bible as the ultimate authority. I'm sure that most have read in the Bible to not be conformed to this world. In other words, having a worldly position on homosexual acts is NOT a positive thing for a real Christian - fundamentalist or not.

Is there are reason why you didn't quote this part?

 
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kql314

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Hello- this depends on who is defining the fundamentals? I could define my own fundamentals and then call myself a fundamentalist.

This topic in come ways is similar to an "evangelical". who or what is an evangelical, and aren't all Christians supposed to be "evangelical"? If so, then there is no need for the term evangelical. But of course, as most Christians don't evangelize- we do have a group that calls themselves evangelicals- because they do "practice what they preach"...

God Bless,

Ken
 
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Please remember, I am not expressing an opinion on the merits of the case. I'm not a fundamentalist, so that would be inappropriate. I will not reply to your comments about the Bible's position.

I am commenting only on the original topic of the thread, which is attitudes towards fundamentalists. And what is relevant there is not what the Bible says, but what non-fundamentalists think about fundamentalists.

Take a look at this: Americans' Acceptance of Gay Relations Crosses 50% Threshold.

Look particularly at the age distribution and at the distribution by religion. They don't break it down in much detail among different Christian groups, but the little breakdown they give shows quite a high degree of variation there. At any rate, it is quite clear that non-Christians almost all see homosexuality as OK, and that among Christians, more liberal, and younger are more likely to see it that way as well. Furthermore, attitudes are changing fairly rapidly, particularly among Catholics, who I take it are the closest to moderate to liberal Christians in this poll, and among political moderates.

Thus I think there's plenty of reason for people to see opposition to homosexuality as coming from conservative Christians. If most of the folks come to think of it as a civil rights issue (and I believe that's the common rhetoric), then I believe my comparison with being on the wrong side of the civil rights battle is correct. Not as a fair assessment, but as how people will see the situation.

I am *NOT* talking about the Bible or what Christians should think. I am talking about people's perception of Christian attitudes, particularly conservative Christians. Which I thought was the question.
The question you have to ask yourself is: do I want to be a God-pleaser, or a man-pleaser? One way leads to a heavenly reward, the other ... not so much.

Romans 8:6 - For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
Romans 8:7 - because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
Romans 8:8 - and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. [NASB]
 
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WannaWitness

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The question you have to ask yourself is: do I want to be a God-pleaser, or a man-pleaser?


This just reminded me of a song I like by Petra from their Not of This World album. Great peppy tune with an even greater message.

Incidentally, here it is on Youtube for anyone who is interested.... which brings me to another stereotype which this video is bound to clear up: Yes, some "fundies" do like CCM!

Petra = Godpleaser - YouTube
 
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This just reminded me of a song I like by Petra from their Not of This World album. Great peppy tune with an even greater message.

Incidentally, here it is on Youtube for anyone who is interested.... which brings me to another stereotype which this video is bound to clear up: Yes, some "fundies" do like CCM!

Petra = Godpleaser - YouTube
When I first became a Christian on fire for the Lord, this is one of the albums I listened to over and over again. My wife and I even saw them in concert at Kiel Auditorium in St. Louis. It's not surprising I may have "borrowed" a phrase from one of their song lyrics. I still have the "cassette" of this song/album somewhere. :thumbsup:
 
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WannaWitness

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When I first became a Christian on fire for the Lord, this is one of the albums I listened to over and over again. My wife and I even saw them in concert at Kiel Auditorium in St. Louis. It's not surprising I may have "borrowed" a phrase from one of their song lyrics. I still have the "cassette" of this song/album somewhere. :thumbsup:

I still have loads of cassettes... now, I need to figure out how I can get them to CD, and then onto the computer! Or get one of those little apparatuses which transfers directly from the cassette to the computer. :)

At any rate, it just goes to show that CCM can still have messages that are far from "shallow". Of course, I do realize that CCM isn't for everyone.
 
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I still have loads of cassettes... now, I need to figure out how I can get them to CD, and then onto the computer! Or get one of those little apparatuses which transfers directly from the cassette to the computer. :)

At any rate, it just goes to show that CCM can still have messages that are far from "shallow". Of course, I do realize that CCM isn't for everyone.
Although I have enough gear here at home to make the transfer, I just haven't got around to it yet. The message in the Petra song seems to have held up well over the years.
 
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underheaven

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Hi :)

I'm not here to bash or criticize your fundamentalist tendancies. I'm just genuingely interested in hearing why you think so many people find your "brand" of Christianity so off putting. Stereotypes are used by individuals who lack both the vocabulary and sophistication to make a cogent or coherent argument. Having said that, I just want to put out a couple of common stereotypes, associated with fundamentalists, to see if you believe thay have any credence.

Intolerant of others (especially minority groups)
Struggles with Biblical interpretation and analysis
Has a basic level of education
Politically right-wing
Protests abortion clinics
Despises liberals
Proud gun owners
Loves hunting
Belong to churches that have only one race (white)
Takes every word in the Bible literally
Thinks political correctness has indeed gone mad

Would it be fair to say that if a Christian identified with those traits/labels or stereotypes, it would be fair to label them a fundamentalist?

Do you actually think fundamentalists are off-putting or in someway discredit or embarrass Christendom? (I appreciate I wouldn't expect anyone to say yes to that)

Would love to hear your thoughts :wave:
You have obviously thought about the subject a lot,and are very accurate. I am European,and therefore
not fundamentalist. I think that there is a problem with lack of a wider experience of the world ,
and education,and that any doubts must be pushed out of mind.I became a Christian again after huge
long studies,even having 'proof 'outside the bible,so I am very 'sure' and this makes me more relaxed.
M.Scott Peck deals with this subject of stages of belief. He started with idea of 6 ,but reduced it
to 4 for easy consumption.He became a Christian around 40 yearsof age ,so he isworth reading.
Yes I find the anomally of fundamentalism or conservatism in christians around money and power ,to be contradictory to Christ's message.:idea: There are of course Christians in Europe who are hypocrites about money too.:D
 
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You have obviously thought about the subject a lot,and are very accurate. I am European,and therefore
not fundamentalist. I think that there is a problem with lack of a wider experience of the world ,
and education,and that any doubts must be pushed out of mind.I became a Christian again after huge
long studies,even having 'proof 'outside the bible,so I am very 'sure' and this makes me more relaxed.
M.Scott Peck deals with this subject of stages of belief. He started with idea of 6 ,but reduced it
to 4 for easy consumption.He became a Christian around 40 yearsof age ,so he isworth reading.
Yes I find the anomally of fundamentalism or conservatism in christians around money and power ,to be contradictory to Christ's message.:idea: There are of course Christians in Europe who are hypocrites about money too.:D
Are you saying there are no Fundamentalists in Europe, or that there is a misunderstanding of what Fundamentalism means?
 
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underheaven

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Are you saying there are no Fundamentalists in Europe, or that there is a misunderstanding of what Fundamentalism means?
I find people who are not particularly religious quite fundamentalist here .
They have traditional values with out being in church. No ,there is not the same talking about God here in public ie .in France. I don't think we need to read the bible often to know homosexual acts are wrong,for example.:pray:
 
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I find people who are not particularly religious quite fundamentalist here .
They have traditional values with out being in church. No ,there is not the same talking about God here in public ie .in France. I don't think we need to read the bible often to know homosexual acts are wrong,for example.:pray:
I should have said Christian Fundamentalist. But anyway, are you saying some people are politically and socially conservative (fundamentalist) in beliefs, without being ostensibly religious, correct?

If you don't mind, I don't get to talk with anyone from France very often (I work for a company which is headquartered in the UK), how is the USA typically perceived now versus ten years ago or so? My only trip to Europe was to Sweden back in the 1990's so I'm just curious. There are no right or wrong answers, just looking for some first-hand information.

God Bless.
 
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underheaven

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I should have said Christian Fundamentalist. But anyway, are you saying some people are politically and socially conservative (fundamentalist) in beliefs, without being ostensibly religious, correct?

If you don't mind, I don't get to talk with anyone from France very often (I work for a company which is headquartered in the UK), how is the USA typically perceived now versus ten years ago or so? My only trip to Europe was to Sweden back in the 1990's so I'm just curious. There are no right or wrong answers, just looking for some first-hand information.

God Bless.
I think overall very positively. There was a great programmme earlier which showed how enthusiastic,and creative a group of people can be.*France has become rather 'heavy' and uncreative,because of two things .Not enough 'God conversation',and too much dependence on social services makes people leave 'helping neighbours' etc to the state.
Many here love the States,although they see the big divide between rich and poor,which is
greater than in europe in general.
The programme came from Nashville,and involved the local community building a school for one
which had been demolished. Yes 'God's countries' are more creative,if less 'equal'.:D
It's after midnight,bonne nuit,que dieu vous benit:wave:
 
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I think overall very positively. There was a great programmme earlier which showed how enthusiastic,and creative a group of people can be.*France has become rather 'heavy' and uncreative,because of two things .Not enough 'God conversation',and too much dependence on social services makes people leave it 'helping neighbours' etc to the state.
Many here love the States,although they see the big divide between rich and poor,which is greater than in europe in general.
The programme came from Nashville,and involved the local community building a school for one which had been demolished. Yes 'God's countries' are more creative,if less 'equal'.:D
It's after midnight,bonne nuit,que dieu vous benis.:wave:
Thanks,
God bless.:)
 
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non-religious

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[hedrick]
And what is relevant there is not what the Bible says, but what non-fundamentalists think about fundamentalists.

Exactly...

Take a look at this: Americans' Acceptance of Gay Relations Crosses 50% Threshold.

Look particularly at the age distribution and at the distribution by religion. They don't break it down in much detail among different Christian groups, but the little breakdown they give shows quite a high degree of variation there. At any rate, it is quite clear that non-Christians almost all see homosexuality as OK, and that among Christians, more liberal, and younger are more likely to see it that way as well. Furthermore, attitudes are changing fairly rapidly, particularly among Catholics, who I take it are the closest to moderate to liberal Christians in this poll, and among political moderates.

Thus I think there's plenty of reason for people to see opposition to homosexuality as coming from conservative Christians. If most of the folks come to think of it as a civil rights issue (and I believe that's the common rhetoric), then I believe my comparison with being on the wrong side of the civil rights battle is correct. Not as a fair assessment, but as how people will see the situation.

Good points..

I am *NOT* talking about the Bible or what Christians should think. I am talking about people's perception of Christian attitudes, particularly conservative Christians. Which I thought was the question.

That is what I am interested in hearing :)
 
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Baqueinfaith

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OP, I won't argue the merits of the Fundamentalist position, but do take a few things into consideration:

1. Much of what you mention really doesn't have anything to do with Christian Fundamentalism, as much as it does certain American subcultures where Christian, and especially Fundamentalist Christian, belief runs deep.

2. A lot of the other things you mention, were standard beliefs among all Christians until, as I understand it, a few decades back. For example, believing abortion is wrong. (Incidentally, even as an atheist I was pro-life, so dishonest did I find the term "pro-choice").

On the abortion point, someone back made what I thought was an excellent point, about the PA governor who was a committed leftist, popular, but was pro-life, and the left hates him. This is absurdity of the left, they've become so committed to this idea that you have the "right" to choose to kill your child. It's become a cultural rallying point for them.

But I digress. Anyway, on to point three.

3. Some people are just angry about Christians. Not too long ago I read an article on Salon.com, that seriously, no exaggeration, was claiming that all of the GOP nominees are actually planning a theocratic fascist revolution (Was any fascist state ever a true theocracy?). They were not exaggerating, they really believed that. And their evidence was things like Rick Perry addressing a church by saying something like "Inside every man's heart is a hole that can only be filled by Jesus". And this, they actually thought, no exaggeration, was a sign he was planning a theocratic revolt. Not sure what people on this board will think of that theology, but it sounds somewhere between "pretty obvious to any believer", "standard belief", and "yawn...quit with the lovey-dovey stuff and start being a hospital for sinners".

Now, Rick Perry is a Methodist. How many people in liberal or atheist America have the foggiest idea what Methodists believe and what makes them different from Fundamentalists or my Church, for example?

I know sooo many people all across the US who were convinced Harold Camping (and no, he's not representative of this board, either) is Catholic. It's like...dude...huh? How do you even get that confused?

4. On minority attendance of Fundamentalist Churches. It's my understanding, and I've heard it several places, that Mexicans in the US, especially the younger generation, are abandoning my Church in droves for Evangelical Churches. I can tell you it's definitely the case where I am that any Christian Church, no matter what the denomination, is mostly Asian, Filipino, and Hispanic. Fundamentalists seem to actually be growing quite healthily.

5. They (Fundamentalist Christians) are in a great situation BECAUSE of their confidence. One poster up here referred to Catholics as liberal or moderate. The sad thing is, that's actually extremely true. Most Catholics have no idea what their faith means. They just go to Catholic parishes because that's what they've been doing since they were kids.

And it's because, in the 60s, a new breed of bishops decided that they were going to modernize, stop talking about hell, stop talking about sin, and just say lovey-dovey things all day long. Oh, and they also started not-so-secretly accepting open homosexuals into the upper echelons. This of course, lead to the homosexual pedophile rapist scandals.

The problem of course, is that everyone who hated us then, pretty much still hates us now. No one cared at all that we destroyed the whole culture and community of our faith in the West. No one cared one bit that we stopped talking about hellfire and started talking about the environment and helping the homeless. It didn't change their opinion in the slightest. Their ranks have only grown. It didn't make us look "reasonable", "intelligent" or "progressive", not to them, because by definition we can never be.

I'll tell you what did happen though. Two or three generations have grown up now not knowing a thing about their faith. They don't even know the basics.

The ones who didn't end up leaving the Church, now stay in it for reasons that honestly continue to baffle me. It's not even the complete, mind-boggling ignorance of even the most basic, common denominators among Christians (the Nicene Creed, type doctrines--though we recite this every Mass.) that gets me. That, I sorta understand, in a way. I don't excuse, but I understand.

What gets me, are those who are maybe Christian in the most *ahem* generous *ahem* sense of the word, who do hear the Church's teachings, but then completely and utterly reject them. So you get people, probably the majority of the congregation, that thinks abortion is okay, homosexuality and gay "marriage" are fine, women should be priests, the Pope is a corrupt old man, the Eucharist is just symbolic (I'm not arguing this, I'm just listing Catholic beliefs that some people reject, but still call themselves Catholic), the Bible isn't true, word for word, etc.

And what gets me the most, is these people are brimming with hatred for my Church. They want it to change, because they disagree. And it's not just the big things, either. Forget trying to totally redefine morality...no, they will throw a fit because a few scattered parishes, offer the Latin Mass. Apparently this makes us backwards and authoritarian and elitist and repressive and blah blah blah (this is what "Catholics" are saying). Keep in mind it can be hours that you'll have to drive to get to a parish that regularly has a Latin Mass. And every. single. one has plenty of English Mass celebrations every week. But the fact that any of us prefer the old way, the way things were done prior to 1960's, is enough to get their blood boiling.

Again, I'm not talking about atheists or Fundamentalists, or Jews or Muslims or Presbyterians or Pastafarians or Bill Maher. I'm talking about "Catholics".

So where has being "nice" and wishy-washy gotten us, exactly? Those how hated us then, hate us now. Except, there barely is even an "us" anymore. The only thing we did was drive out two generations of people yearning for faith.

We don't even have a community anymore. Forgetting the theology, before we decided to try to appeal to the Masses, there was at least a sense of Catholic identity. You knew who you were, you loved and cherished your background. You knew from the style of cross being displayed who was who and what it meant. It was a part of us in every sense. It made our community.

But we don't even have that. Neighborhood dogs have that. I'd kill for that.

I'm really not exaggerating. We destroyed our (physical, earthly) Church in America. When we started trying to please everyone, well, it turned out, nobody had a clue what we were saying.

What the Fundamentlists do is very good. They are masters at getting everyone up to speed on at least a few basic points, and a few bits of apologetics. Many go considerably further. They talk about hell and salvation and all this during Church, but after service they'll be your best friend. They'll make you feel welcome.

And no wonder they're growing. People confused by this modernist dictatorship of relativism are looking for confident, strong voices to follow. And the Fundamentalists provide just that. And have coffee and donuts afterwards (I mean this as a compliment). The second they start going "oh it doesn't matter just love everyone and help the poor. Be Buddhist one weekend, it's all the same", they will completely collapse.

But everyone will hate them anyway.

I guess this is a warning to Fundamentalists reading this who might agree with the OP. Be careful what you wish for.

I won't further comment on the Catholic situation, because it will veer too much into apologetics or preaching.
 
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lismore

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Hi :)
Intolerant of others (especially minority groups)
Struggles with Biblical interpretation and analysis
Has a basic level of education
Politically right-wing
Protests abortion clinics
Despises liberals
Proud gun owners
Loves hunting
Belong to churches that have only one race (white)
Takes every word in the Bible literally
Thinks political correctness has indeed gone mad

Would it be fair to say that if a Christian identified with those traits/labels or stereotypes, it would be fair to label them a fundamentalist?



Hello:)

I think one or two items on your list refer specifically to Americans. Gun ownership here is illegal. 'Hunting', well no it's not a big thing here^_^.

People very often label things they don't understand as fundamentalist. On the other hand sometimes churches don't explain fully why they believe what they believe.

to answer a couple of your points:

Politically right-wing

The founder of the British Labour Party James Keir Hardie was a Christian Fundamentalist and a 'left winger'.

'Struggles with Biblical interpretation and analysis'.

'Interpretation'. A good way to get around doing what the bible says to do. 'Did God really say?..................'

Has a basic level of education

Sounds like an insulting remark used by those who disagree but cannot win in a debate.

Thinks political correctness has indeed gone mad

Take your partner for the Happy Gordons!


Takes every word in the Bible literally

That means you've found someone who's living like a Christian should while you're not.

God Bless:)
 
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earagun

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Hi :)

I'm not here to bash or criticize your fundamentalist tendancies. I'm just genuingely interested in hearing why you think so many people find your "brand" of Christianity so off putting. Stereotypes are used by individuals who lack both the vocabulary and sophistication to make a cogent or coherent argument. Having said that, I just want to put out a couple of common stereotypes, associated with fundamentalists, to see if you believe thay have any credence.

Intolerant of others (especially minority groups)
Struggles with Biblical interpretation and analysis
Has a basic level of education
Politically right-wing
Protests abortion clinics
Despises liberals
Proud gun owners
Loves hunting
Belong to churches that have only one race (white)
Takes every word in the Bible literally
Thinks political correctness has indeed gone mad

Would it be fair to say that if a Christian identified with those traits/labels or stereotypes, it would be fair to label them a fundamentalist?

Do you actually think fundamentalists are off-putting or in someway discredit or embarrass Christendom? (I appreciate I wouldn't expect anyone to say yes to that)

Would love to hear your thoughts :wave:
we will see what Jesus's thinks when He returns, most of your list is unfairly written, such as the white only churches or "dispises liberals", I think the fundy's as you like to call them dispise what they see happening to the Word of God in liberal churches where they have left simple plainly written biblical truths, and have rewritten whole blocks of scripture to be reinterpreted in such a way, as to make what once was considered sin by all to not be sin but simply a life choice, personally I think everyone should be against abortion nomatter what they believe, as it is unfeasable to comprehend killing a baby nomatter what age it is, can only be morally wrong.........the bible is a book to be taken literally where it is written in literal form, certainly it has symbolisms and spiritual language that must be addressed, but this is easily handled with basic hermeneutics, and the bible actually interprets itself in most cases
 
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Wendy Cherrett

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A lot of "Christian Fundamental" topics are, no matter how you look at it, are always going to be hard topics for people to swallow. When you become weaned off of the milk of the word, and start eating meat, it's a common sight to see milk drinkers choking on the meat of the word.

No matter when the Lord comes back, we're in the end times, and the days are evil. My husband and I spent years trying to convince people to do what was right, but no amount of begging, pleading, and showing facts and evidence from the Bible would convert the hard-to-convert souls.

The best way that I've found to reach the most stubborn of hearts is through music. Pure music is hard to find, so I resorted to making my own. I can gently sing things to people that I might get stoned for if I said it to their face, but something about it opens their hearts up to receive, that no amount of talking would accomplish.

If you aren't the musical type, or have trouble finding music that's straight from scripture, feel free to use mine. This is NOT a sales pitch. I give my music away for free on my website because I care for the cause of Christ, not because I want to get famous.

Just as Saul was changed when David played for him, I've watched rock-stubborn Christians, and even death-metal-listening-heathens ponder their life and change when God's word is given to them through music.

"We wrestle not against flesh and blood". Once the Word of God has the chance to saturate into someone's heart, He does the conviction Himself. Issues like "Once saved always saved?, the tribulation debates, bible version arguments, and all of the things that we fight to convince people of... all these things sort themselves out automatically. If they make the decision to truly turn to God, then the Word of God washes their minds out of all the crud they once believed ("That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word").

I'm not saying not to preach the truth or share with people, I still do this outside of music, but I found a way that is easier on both the messenger and the receiver to hear about hard topics that people usually resist.

One of my songs, "Return to Rest" deals with Christians who left their first love and fell to the pleasures of this world. It's a way to call them back with a warning from Revelation, while easing how offended they would normally be if you just said it to them.

Anyways, I know music is just one piece of the puzzle, but thought I'd share it in case any of you are frustrated and out of words.

Wendy Cherrett
 
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