A Protestant understanding of Mary

[Catholic Christian]

This question was addressed specifically to those who identify neither with Orthodoxy nor Catholicism.

oh. sorry

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Don't worry about it. The thread is going nowhere anyway. I'm almost thinking that the silence concerning beliefs about Mary might be meaningful in itself.*







*Yes, that is meant to get people to say something!

 

[NoDoubt]

Well of course she felt herself blessed to have been chosen to be the mother of Jesus' humanity. She was a virgin at the time He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, but Joseph was her husband. They had children afterwards (Jesus had siblings). She did not remain a virgin.

Matthew 1:24-25

24And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, 25but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Mediatrix?

The cathecism says:

#969 “Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the [Roman Catholic] Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

The BIBLE says:

I Timothy 2:5 There is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

1 John 2:1 And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Hebrews 13:6 The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

The Heavenly Father sent His only Son so that sinners may come to Him directly through “the man Christ Jesus”. To advance the claim that there is another assistant, mediatrix, advocate or helper is a total contradiction of the written Word of God.

Assumption and Queen of Heaven?

The Catechism says:

#966 “Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things…”

#974 “The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son's Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.”

The BIBLE says:

Acts 1:11 This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

I Timothy 6:15 …the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords.

Isaiah 45:22 In heaven the Lord God alone is glorified. Look to Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth:

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

There are other points but those are just a few.

Mary was a good choice also in order to fulfill the OT prophecies/requirements for the Messianic bloodline.

 

[Catholic Christian]

This:

#966 “Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things…”
#974 “The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son's Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.”

Has nothing to do with this:

Acts 1:11 This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
I Timothy 6:15 …the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords.
Isaiah 45:22 In heaven the Lord God alone is glorified. Look to Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth:
Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

One does not exclude the other

 

[NoDoubt]

This:

Has nothing to do with this:

One does not exclude the other

It didn't happen. She died. She isn't sitting on a throne up in Heaven. That is unscriptural and false teaching.

 

[mont974x4]

shhh

we should just leave people to their Mary worship.

 

[NoDoubt]

shhh

we should just leave people to their Mary worship.

Catholics say they do not worship her. Can someone expain this to me? Is this not worship? I'm not being confrontational. I really want to know.

 

[Catholic Christian]

Catholics say they do not worship her. Can someone expain this to me?

Can someone explain THIS to ME?

Is this worshipping a hard-bound book?
See what things can look like when not properly understood?

 

[NoDoubt]

Can someone explain THIS to ME?

Is this worshipping a hard-bound book?
See what things can look like when not properly understood?

These people are not praying to the book. And that middle one is ridiculous. They are praying and the Bible is sitting nearby.

The people in the photos I posted are clearly praying to a statue.

Incidentally, If you want to see what a person's real priorities are, then watch what they do when their life, or the life of a loved one, is in danger. When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over: "Mary, my mother!" Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat. People gathered around the picture. Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary. When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her!

Jesus said, "..where your treasure is there will your heart be also." (Luke 12:34)

The crowns on the original statues at Fatima and Lourdes are real crowns made of real gold.

Vast sums of money are spent on some special statues of Mary. For example, the statue of Our Lady of the Pillar in Saragossa, Spain has a crown made of 25 pounds of gold and diamonds, with so many diamonds that you can hardly see the gold. In addition, it has six other crowns of gold, diamonds and emeralds. It has 365 mantles which are embroidered with gold and covered with roses of diamonds and other precious stones. It has 365 necklaces made of pearls and diamonds, and six chains of gold set with diamonds.

In Sabana Grande, Puerto Rico, preparations are underway to construct a huge statue of Our Lady of the Rosary. Inside the base of the statue there will be chapels, conference rooms, apartments, a food court, and radio and TV stations. There will also be observation decks. This statue will be part of a 500-acre "Mystical City" complex. According to an article in "Caribbean Business," this statue "will top at 1,500 feet". According to an article by the Associated Press, the statue will be 305 feet high. The discrepancy in numbers can be explained by looking at the Statue of Liberty, which is a 151 foot statue on top of a 154 foot base. Some sources say that the Statue of Liberty is 305 feet high (which includes the height of the base) and some say that it is 151 feet high (which is the height of the actual statue). What we probably have in Sabana Grande is a 305 foot statue with a 1,200 foot base.



(oh but, that's not idolatry... )

 

[Catholic Christian]

These people are not praying to the book... ..They are praying and the Bible is sitting nearby.

Thank you. You just answered your own previous question. Catholics don't pray to hunks of rock... ..and we do not "worship" Mary.

 

[NoDoubt]

..and we do not "worship" Mary.

Salve Regina".

Doesn’t this sound like worship?

"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."

Alfonsus de Liguori (1696-1787) was a principal proponent of the Marianist Movement, which glorifies Mary. He wrote a book entitled "The Glories of Mary" which is famous, influential and widely read. In this book, de Liguori says that Mary was given rulership over one half of the kingdom of God; Mary rules over the kingdom of mercy and Jesus rules over the kingdom of justice. De Liguori said that people should pray to Mary as a mediator and look to her as an object of trust for answered prayer.

The book even says that there is no salvation outside of Mary. Some people suggest that these views are extreme and not representative of Catholic Church teaching. However, instead of silencing de Liguori as a heretic, the Catholic Church canonized him as a saint and declared him to be a "doctor of the Church" (a person whose teachings carry weight and authority). Furthermore, his book is openly and officially promoted by the Catholic Church, and his teachings have influenced popes.

Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that "One can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind."

Pope Pius IX said: "Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her."

 

[Catholic Christian]

Doesn’t this sound like worship? "Hail, holy Queen...

Nope. What then does it mean for Mary to be the Queen of Heaven? Well, in the Old Testament monarchy the Queen of the Davidic Kingdom was the Queen Mother. The Kings, for reasons of state and human weakness, had many wives, none of whom fittingly could be called Queen. That honor was reserved for the mother of the King, whose authority far surpassed the many "queens" married to the king. We see this in the history of Middle Eastern nations of the time. We specifically see this is the role Bathsheba played with respect to King Solomon and the occasions when the Queen Mother acted as regent on behalf of juvenile successors to the throne. Remember, the Jews wanted a king in order to be “like all nations”. Thus, following the models of the neighboring lands, they established a dynasty, a legal system, a royal court – and a queen mother. She was the “Gebirah” – Great Lady.

The role of the Queen Mother, therefore, is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Mary, just as the role of the Davidic King is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Jesus. Jesus inherited the Kingdom promised to David, who was told that one of his descendants would rule forever. The angel Gabriel revealed this fact to Mary at her Annunciation: “Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end." (Luke 1:31-33)


Aside from the prophetic types present in the Kingdom of Judah, there is also the text of Psalm 45, which when speaking of the Kingdom of God also speaks of its Queen.

[6] Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. [7] Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. [8] All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad. [9] Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir. [10] Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; [11] So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him. (Psalm 45:6-11, KJV)

That Kingdom ruled by God is the same as the Kingdom ruled eternally by the Son of David. It is not an earthly kingdom (though it is present on earth in the Church) but rather a heavenly kingdom, the Kingdom of God. The Queen of that Kingdom is the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of the Lord God Jesus Christ. The Jews who knew Jesus would have understood this perfectly. Jesus is “Son of David” who would inherit the throne of David. And who would inherit the throne at his side, the seat of the Queen Mother? His mother, of course.

I would like to recommend two great resources to you:

1) An mp3 link of Dr. Scott Hahn discussing Mariology, and his book "Hail Holy Queen" on an episode of "Catholic Answers Live":
http://www.catholic.com/audio/2000/mp3/ca001129.mp3


2) The actual book, "Hail Holy Queen" by Dr. Scott Hahn

​

 

[NoDoubt]

Nope. What then does it mean for Mary to be the Queen of Heaven? Well, in the Old Testament monarchy the Queen of the Davidic Kingdom was the Queen Mother. The Kings, for reasons of state and human weakness, had many wives, none of whom fittingly could be called Queen. That honor was reserved for the mother of the King, whose authority far surpassed the many "queens" married to the king. We see this in the history of Middle Eastern nations of the time. We specifically see this is the role Bathsheba played with respect to King Solomon and the occasions when the Queen Mother acted as regent on behalf of juvenile successors to the throne. Remember, the Jews wanted a king in order to be “like all nations”. Thus, following the models of the neighboring lands, they established a dynasty, a legal system, a royal court – and a queen mother. She was the “Gebirah” – Great Lady.

The role of the Queen Mother, therefore, is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Mary, just as the role of the Davidic King is a prophetic type of the Kingdom role of Jesus. Jesus inherited the Kingdom promised to David, who was told that one of his descendants would rule forever. The angel Gabriel revealed this fact to Mary at her Annunciation: “Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end." (Luke 1:31-33)


Aside from the prophetic types present in the Kingdom of Judah, there is also the text of Psalm 45, which when speaking of the Kingdom of God also speaks of its Queen.

[6] Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. [7] Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. [8] All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad. [9] Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir. [10] Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; [11] So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him. (Psalm 45:6-11, KJV)

That Kingdom ruled by God is the same as the Kingdom ruled eternally by the Son of David. It is not an earthly kingdom (though it is present on earth in the Church) but rather a heavenly kingdom, the Kingdom of God. The Queen of that Kingdom is the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of the Lord God Jesus Christ. The Jews who knew Jesus would have understood this perfectly. Jesus is “Son of David” who would inherit the throne of David. And who would inherit the throne at his side, the seat of the Queen Mother? His mother, of course.

I would like to recommend two great resources to you:

1) An mp3 link of Dr. Scott Hahn discussing Mariology, and his book "Hail Holy Queen" on an episode of "Catholic Answers Live":
http://www.catholic.com/audio/2000/mp3/ca001129.mp3


2) The actual book, "Hail Holy Queen" by Dr. Scott Hahn

​

The only occurrences of the phrase "Queen of Heaven" in the Bible are in reference to a false pagan goddess (see Jeremiah 7:18; 44:17-25). Jesus' mother Mary is never described as having any kind of exalted position in Heaven. The Bible does not record Mary's death. In fact, Mary is never even mentioned after Acts chapter 1, verse 14. Mary was a godly women through whom God chose to bring forth His beloved Son (Luke 1:26-38). The Bible gives us no reason to believe, though, that Mary was sinless or is now exalted as the "Queen of Heaven."

Mary is to be respected as the earthly mother of Jesus, but she is not worthy of our worship and she cannot hear our prayers. The Bible nowhere indicates that anyone other than God is to be worshipped or revered. The Bible nowhere indicates that anyone other than God can hear or answer our prayers. Jesus is our only advocate in Heaven (1 Timothy 2:5). If Mary were to speak to us today from heaven, she would say the same as the angels do when people try to worship them -- "Worship God!" (Revelation 19:10; 22:9).

 

[NoDoubt]

...

Edit

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Mods (if this forsaken forum has any) -- please close this thread.

 

[NoDoubt]

I should also add that Roman Catholics and Orthodox should not argue with anything said in this thread, however inaccurate you may find a given statement to be.

I'm sorry Seraphim. I did not mean for this to turn into an arguement. I gave my views and I was argued with.

I'm sorry.

I deleted my previous post.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

It's okay. Thanks for trying to contribute.

 

[mont974x4]

They claim to not worship Mary, but many clearly do. One needs to only look at what is posted about Mary and what the rcc official stance is and it clearly is an issue.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Once again... please close this thread, as its original aims have been completely ignored.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

The people in the photos I posted are clearly praying to a statue.

Can I just say that..they're praying to the person that's represented by the statue, not to the statue itself? I go to an Orthodox church and we use icons to worship, but we don't actually worship the icons..we worship Christ and venerate the Saints that are represented in them. It's the same with the Catholics

peace

monica