A Progressive's letter to former Adventists

[JonMiller]

The SDA church does lots of good work outside of the US/etc. We must not ignore that. We do a lot more evangilizing/aid than most groups, who just stick to themselves and do nothing. It is true that we seem to not be focused on the right thing in the US (a lot of people I know in the US and europe ('Christian' places) have very little knowledge about Christianity.. even Christians!), instead focusing on teaching the Sabbath and Prophecy. That doesn't stop our church from doing the right thing in the world.

JM

 

[tall73]

Do you simply write off your family and friends or in some of our cases the whole Adventists culture? I think the real mission of evangelism begins at the local level. See my most recent blog article
http://www.cafesda.blogspot.com/

I get the mission beginning at the local level. I don't get the first part of the question.

 

[tall73]

The SDA church does lots of good work outside of the US/etc. We must not ignore that. We do a lot more evangilizing/aid than most groups, who just stick to themselves and do nothing. It is true that we seem to not be focused on the right thing in the US (a lot of people I know in the US and europe ('Christian' places) have very little knowledge about Christianity.. even Christians!), instead focusing on teaching the Sabbath and Prophecy. That doesn't stop our church from doing the right thing in the world.

JM

Alright.

How does that relate?

 

[tall73]

I am just amazed at the amount of formers who have passed through here over the months I have been at this forum. I counted about 20 including the ones who post regularly. Not to mention the 5 and counting who have bailed out of the church since I have been here.

Unbelievable. :o

I wonder what the present statistics are as far as how many we are losing from the ranks on a yearly basis worldwide?

Maybe I don't want to know. It's like a bleeding hemorrhage that just cannot be stopped.

1.5 million left in a five year period from 2000-2005 , according to church statistics.

http://news.adventist.org/data/2005/06/1120249432/index.html.en

"The bottom line for this quinquennium is that for every 100 accessions, more than 35 others decided to leave," he told delegates. "That total is considerably more than the 24 subtracted for every 100 added as reported at our last session" in 2000.

Despite a fast growth rate during the last five years, when considering the number of those leaving the church compared to how many joined, this is the "lowest growth rate since the 1960 to 1964 period."

Here is one non-Adventist source's take on the numbers:

http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Articles/SDAGrowthSlows/tabid/495/Default.aspx

 

[freeindeed2]

1.5 million left in a five year period from 2000-2005 , according to church statistics.

http://news.adventist.org/data/2005/06/1120249432/index.html.en

This is true. But it doesn't take into account the many who have left and not removed their names from membership.

 

[StormyOne]

1.5 million left in a five year period from 2000-2005 , according to church statistics.

http://news.adventist.org/data/2005/06/1120249432/index.html.en

"The bottom line for this quinquennium is that for every 100 accessions, more than 35 others decided to leave," he told delegates. "That total is considerably more than the 24 subtracted for every 100 added as reported at our last session" in 2000.

Despite a fast growth rate during the last five years, when considering the number of those leaving the church compared to how many joined, this is the "lowest growth rate since the 1960 to 1964 period."

that is what I had read somewhere.... the attrition rate was like 35 to 40%...... baptize 10 and 3 or 4 leave.....

 

[tall73]

This is true. But it doesn't take into account the many who have left and not removed their names from membership.

Yup.

In fact a number of the churches I was familiar with had around 50 percent of book membership in regular attendance.

 

[freeindeed2]

Yup.

In fact a number of the churches I was familiar with had around 50 percent of book membership in regular attendance.

My experience as well. But that fact is not shared readily. That's why when the SDA church claims 14 million members, I know from personal experience that this is not the case. Technically it may be true, but in reality it is FAR less. Not to mention the fact that it is quite a process of letter writing and phone calls to even get your name removed in most cases.

 

[tall73]

For the past five years we have reported to the Executive Committee the
very low retention rate of our membership. I am happy to report that there has
been a remarkable change in this area. While we were reporting a ratio of
accessions to losses around 45.03%, our records this year show a healthy figure
of 24.21%. This means, for every one hundred members added through baptism
and profession of faith, 24 left the church. I must hasten to indicate that those
who leave are not only the newly-baptized members.

This was from the 2007 Annual Council Secretary report.

http://news.adventist.org/specials/2007/annual-council/secretarys-report.pdf

Apparently the rate got worse after the 2005 GC, reaching about 45 percent.

This year it is down. That may be improvement. Or it may be that long process of phone calls etc.

Time will tell.

 

[freeindeed2]

For the past five years we have reported to the Executive Committee the
very low retention rate of our membership. I am happy to report that there has
been a remarkable change in this area. While we were reporting a ratio of
accessions to losses around 45.03%, our records this year show a healthy figure
of 24.21%. This means, for every one hundred members added through baptism
and profession of faith, 24 left the church. I must hasten to indicate that those
who leave are not only the newly-baptized members.

This was from the 2007 Annual Council Secretary report.

http://news.adventist.org/specials/2007/annual-council/secretarys-report.pdf

Apparently the rate got worse after the 2005 GC, reaching about 45 percent.

This year it is down. That may be improvement. Or it may be that long process of phone calls etc.

Time will tell.

I remember the phone calls. All of our elders were making them.

 

[NightEternal]

Well, there is definitely denial on the part of the admin as far as the reasons for the high apostasy rate. At the 2005 GC Session in St. Louis, this was made abundantly clear.

Upon reflection of the preceedings, there many interesting reports that came out. Of all the actions and preceedings that took place, the one on retaining members really captured my interest. I think it is a very pertinent issue. I mean, after all, filling a bucket with water that has holes in the bottom is kind of pointless.

Here is an opening statement from Mark Finley:

"In the past five years, the Seventh-day Adventist Church has exploded in growth, and we can praise God that 5,049,157 accessions theough baptism and profession of faith have taken place. But at the same time we lament the fact that in this same five year period 1,397,608 people have been dropped from church membership . That becomes a serious problem. Is it possible to reverse the church's high apostasy rate? And do we have any examples on a divisionwide basis in which there has been intentional approach on the part of the conferences, unions and divisions to reduce apostasy?"

Here are the top six reasons that church growth thinkers give for people leaving the SDA church:

1.) Conflict with the pastor or another church member.
2.) Discouragement over personal problems.
3.) Lack of friends. Studies indicate that if you do not establish a set of new friends within the first year you are baptized, your likelihood of leaving increases.
4.) A weak Biblical faith. Studies also indicate that when people have a weak Biblical faith, when they do not understand what they are doing in joining a religious community of SDA's, they are likely to leave more quickly.
5.) The perception on the part of some that have joined a church that it is not relevant to thier needs.
6.) Lack of a house of worship.

Please! Could there be more floating taking place down Denial River?

I was greatly disappointed that the one reason (which should have been first on the list) people apostatize was not listed or even addressed: Dispute over theology and doctrine. When was the last time these delegates visited a former Adventist website? By far, the main reason given for leaving by those very ones who have abandoned our faith is conflict over beliefs and doctrine, most notably the issue of Ellen G. White and her prophetic status . You could also list the sanctuary, the Sabbath and the Investigative Judgement doctrines as well. Some members simply do not believe she was inspired, or they question that some of our major doctrines are Biblical, so they leave for a mainline Evangelical church. Why was this not addressed???

I think our chuch has really got its head in the sand on this issue. Do we really honestly believe that the majority of members leave because of a dispute with a pastor and not because of doctrine? We ignore the overhwelming evidence at our own peril. How can we take steps to deal with this issue if we won't even acknowledge it in the top six list?

 

[NightEternal]

Although, there is some hope. Some, like Clifford Goldstein, have forced thier boat to the shore of Denial and faced up to the unattractive facts of the matter. A quote from a good article entitled 'Deductions':

n my early days as a Seventh-day Adventist I heard this mantra: “No one ever leaves the Adventist Church over doctrine, only over personality disputes or the like.”

Keep dreaming, folks. People leave us, all the time, over doctrine. We fool ourselves, consoling ourselves into believing otherwise.

http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=360

Hopefully more Adventist leaders will own up to this and acknowledge what no one at the GC wants to admit.

 

[JonMiller]

Alright.

How does that relate?

The SDA church is worth supporting even if it isn't doing what it shuold be where we live.

JM

 

[JonMiller]

I haven't been to my home church in 6 years, and I haven't been a regular attender there for 11... but that doesn't change the fact that (except for one year), I have attended an SDA church somewhere 10+ times per year every year. The church that I have been attending recently (and maybe my membership has trasnfered here, I asked for it to trasnfer over a month ago) had a large portion of the church that weren't members over a year ago. During the last year+ a lot of baptisms have occured, and these haven't been going out and getting new people. Rather they have been baptizing people who were attending but not members.

Additionally, a number other churchs I have attended have had people who regularly attended but weren't members of that church (most often weren't even mebmers of the SDA church).

JM

 

[Sophia7]

The SDA church does lots of good work outside of the US/etc. We must not ignore that. We do a lot more evangilizing/aid than most groups, who just stick to themselves and do nothing. It is true that we seem to not be focused on the right thing in the US (a lot of people I know in the US and europe ('Christian' places) have very little knowledge about Christianity.. even Christians!), instead focusing on teaching the Sabbath and Prophecy. That doesn't stop our church from doing the right thing in the world.

JM

What good is "evangelizing," though, if what's being spread isn't the real gospel? Many other churches do evangelism and missionary work. They don't all "stick to themselves and do nothing." I couldn't in good conscience give money or be involved in mission projects in the Adventist Church anymore when I don't agree with their mission of "converting" people who are already Christians to the Adventist lifestyle. I also object to their indoctrination campaigns lately. For example, take a look at what the Connecting with Jesus program is doing. Why are they wasting money on this sort of thing instead of reaching out to the unchurched with the true gospel?

 

[JonMiller]

I actually am pretty sure (from what I have heard of people out there), that we preach Jesus in other countries, not the IJ.

We are, in north america/etc, converting people who are already Christians to the adventist lifestyle. In other parts of the world though, we are bringing the true gospel to the unchurched.

And we do it a lot more than many of the other denominations. Most of our evangelizing isn't done in north america. While we spend a lot of money (mostly wasted, I tihnk) on reaching out to other Christians in North America (and similar 'Christian' areas of the world), most of our actual converts are in areas where we are preaching the gospel to non-Christian communities.

This I get from talking to my relatives about their mission experieces (a lot of my relatives have spent time, sometimes their careers, in various mission fields).

JM

 

[JonMiller]

I consider our efforts in north america to be misguided and weak. It is our efforts in other areas that are good. But everywhere, we are more active (by far) than any other church of our size. Most churchs that I know of do very little outside of their own community...

JM

 

[ChristianCandy]

I hope you don't mind if I join this discussion.

I'm SDA, but have not attended in over 1-1/2 yrs. & not regularly in 2 or 3 yrs. My beef?

There are several issues.

1) Although SDA's love theology, they also PRIDE themselves with theology that they are right & everybody else (other denominations) are wrong! I can't stand this attitude. If it says in Ellen G. White's writing (which it does's sometimes) or if it doesn't say in the SDA Sabbath School Bible Study Guide, then it doesn't exist. Period. End of their discussion.

2) Although SDA's are very cliquish & lavish their love on regular members, they are very cold people toward newcomers & toward strangers. This may also be true of other denominations...I'm not really sure, but I really dislike the cliques.

3) I hear too much criticism from long-term members over things like smoking, eating meat & milk, wearing jewelery, violating the Sabbath by buying a coffee, etc.....like where is the love of Jesus in them? One Adventis's wife had just died from lung cancer from smoking but the congregation could not rub the issue in hard enough for the grieving spouse who did not smoke, & rub it in & rub it in, even though his wife had just died & he was grieving! Where is the compassion of SDA's?

4) I hope this is not a statement all SDA's believe, but one elder said to me that He would not believe his eyes if Jesus suddenly appeared to him in the church. We were discussing visions & dreams. Some people have the gift of visions & dreams. Some do not. Obviously this elder didn't but he said that Christians are of sound mind & do not go about "seeing" things. That rally offended me & alerted me that SDA's do not generally believe in visions & dreams other than what Ellen G. White experienced.

5) Although spiritual warfare is real & the enemy abounds at attacking Christians, SDA's do not in whole believe in spiritual warfare prayer. Huh? Why wouldn't you? You believe in the Bible. Why wouldn't you also believe that demons are real, that they exist, and that they need to be dealt with through spiritual warfare prayer?

6) I dislike having a sermon every week for 1 hr. to 1-1/2 hr. What's even worse...when pastors change over & the elders take their shot at sermonizing for that length of time....gets even more strenuous on my nerves. If the pastor was good as sermonizing, I wouldn't mind it a bit! But the pastor's in my church could take some lessons from the pastors on TV who do 1/2 hr or 1 hr. segment. A lot of my pastor's sermons sound more like he has a beef toward one particular person in the congregation & is harping on it for 1 hr. to 1-1/2 hrs.

7) I dislike having only 20 min. to 1/2 hr. praise & worship time. I came from a church before joining SDA's where worship was an hour & an hour really doesn't seem like that much time to me. But to me, isn't it more important to have more praise & worship time than an excessively long sermon time?

Well in general, I find SDA very cold & heartless people. They have their own set of beliefs & others don't measure up to them. They like to argue. They like to debate. They like to win their debates using Ellen G. White quotes, whether she was quoted accurately or not.

But having said all that, I would also like to take a minute to tell you what I do like about SDA's.

1) I like the fact that they study the Bible & that they devote a lot of time to studying it. Very commendable. Very few denominations do such a wonderful job as the SDA's. I think this is what attracted me to the SDA church in the first place.

2) I like keeping the Sat. Sabbath as oppposed to the Sun. Sabbath. That is a precious doctrine that I totally agree with. I wish more denominations also had a Sat. Sabbath church like the 7th Day Baptists do.

Ok...so these seem to be the only 2 really good qualities about SDA's that I treasure. I would add that I also like the fact that SDA's accept a prophet as their leader but I dislike the way they idolize her. And I also dislike their closed minds that there are other prophets out there like her.

 

[StormyOne]

thank you for sharing your observations Candy.....

 

[Sophia7]

I actually am pretty sure (from what I have heard of people out there), that we preach Jesus in other countries, not the IJ.

We are, in north america/etc, converting people who are already Christians to the adventist lifestyle. In other parts of the world though, we are bringing the true gospel to the unchurched.

And we do it a lot more than many of the other denominations. Most of our evangelizing isn't done in north america. While we spend a lot of money (mostly wasted, I tihnk) on reaching out to other Christians in North America (and similar 'Christian' areas of the world), most of our actual converts are in areas where we are preaching the gospel to non-Christian communities.

This I get from talking to my relatives about their mission experieces (a lot of my relatives have spent time, sometimes their careers, in various mission fields).

JM

Yes, they do preach the gospel in other countries, but then they add to it all the lifestyle stuff/EGW/IJ, etc., later. It's a little different because they don't make people believe all 28 FBs in order to be baptized, but they do get to them eventually.