A problem with the analysis of type Ia supernovae

Michael

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I've proposed that Davd might be able to raise his 'Observational evidence favors a static universe' paper in the easier going S&T forum at CQ (which should raise a few CQ moderator eyebrows).

I suspect that idea will go over like a lead balloon. Be careful or they'll ban you too, or at least threaten you like they threatened poor Jerry. :)

(Its a real pity Michael forced them to create the draconian rules in the ATM forum via his ideologically motivated advocation-at-all-costs style back in the olden days) ..

Say what!?!? I think it's completely ridiculous that the moderators created a "burn the heretic at the stake forum" *long before I ever posted* at BA/CQ. It's also downright funny that they had to change their draconian rule system and make it even more draconian by closing threads in 30 days. :)

You're barking up the wrong tree. That draconian rule system was already in place before I ever posted at BA/CQ. It may have devolved further after my tenure (maybe as a result of my tenure), but I had nothing to do with the 'burn the heretic' rule system at BA/CQ. That draconian rule system was already in place when they burned Dr. Manuel (and me) at the stake. They didn't have time limits in place back then, but in every other respect it's exactly the same dump it's always been.
 
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Michael

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JeanTate said:
My questions:
1) in the course of developing/researching your paper, David, what contact did you have with any of these 40+ people?
2) to what extent did you share your initial work/draft paper/etc with any of these 40+ people?
3) how much feedback have you had, from any of these 40+ people, on your paper (including any drafts), either solicited or unsolicited?

More totally irrelevant Spanish Inquisition questions....like David needs their permission, or those other authors are automatically right by default. Sheesh. Can she be anymore transparent?
 
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sjastro

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A problem with the analysis of type Ia supernovae

I highlighted the formula! There is no t sub 0 in a static universe and the maximum distance traveled is related to the likelihood of *scattering*, not time!
You did not highlight the formula previously which is yet another bald face lie.
It is also a nonsensical statement.
t₀ is the age of the Universe which in the case of a static Universe is an infinitely large number.
Since there is a negative exponential function in the equation physicists and mathematicians know how this function behaves as t₀ becomes extremely large.
t₀ just doesn’t disappear from the equation because the Universe is static!!!!!

The mean free path length l or alternatively the mean collision time of a photon τ-bar in the equation relates to distance and time the photons travel between scattering events.
So scattering is fundamental.

The bottom line is that you do not understand either the derivation or the workings of the equation.

The only one lying (to themselves) is you. There is no T sub 0 in a static universe and the distance a photon can travel is limited by the likelihood (limit) of scattering not *time*! You can't just make r->infinity on a whim in a *dusty* environment!
Who said it does. That’s another example of you making up a lie and attributing it to me.
r doesn’t have to be infinite and even applies to photons that are not scattered as I showed in this post.

Your example is not only just plain wrong and dishonest, it’s not even a case of an error in calculation.
You retract this outrageous lie or I will report you.
 
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Michael

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You did not highlight the formula previously which is yet another bald face lie.

A problem with the analysis of type Ia supernovae

I absolutely did select that exact equation as the first equation that I selected from your post! What do you want, egg in your beer?

It is also a nonsensical statement.

No, it's not because you're using that formula in the equation but r does not go to infinity when t₀ goes to infinity. r is limited by scattering in the medium, not by time or by the age of the universe! You therefore cannot just substitute a time/age related formula and set it arbitrarily high.

t₀ is the age of the Universe which in the case of a static Universe is an infinitely large number.

True, but r doesn't go to infinity when t₀ is infinitely large, so you can't just "combine" the formulas the way you did and thereby change the meaning and limits of r as you did.

Since there is a negative exponential function in the equation physicists and mathematicians know how this function behaves as t₀ becomes extremely large.
t₀ just doesn’t disappear from the equation because the Universe is static!!!!!

I never said it disappears. I said it doesn't exist in a static universe and I pointed out that r doesn't go to infinity in a dusty static universe as a function of the age of the universe.

The mean free path length l or alternatively the mean collision time of a photon τ-bar in the equation relates to distance and time the photons travel between scattering events.
So scattering is fundamental.

Scattering *was* fundamental in your equation (1) until you "combined" the offending equation (2) into your formula in equation (3) and then you inserted a large number in t₀.

CodeCogsEqn%20(1).gif


Where do you see an age of the universe related variable on the right hand side of = sign in equation (1)? It's not there and P(r) is not related to the age of the universe in any way.

The bottom line is that you do not understand either the derivation or the workings of the equation.

I understand that you took a formula that has no relationship to the age of the universe and you *changed* it using an *inappropriate* conversion of r!

You retract this outrageous lie or I will report you.

Do whatever you want, I really don't care if you want to cry wolf again. Your conversion of r in your "combined" equation (4) is still wrong because the age of the universe is irrelevant to equation (1) and it *should be* (but isn't) irrelevant in equation (4).
 
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sjastro

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Hmm .. the way I read it, it seems he's running with two hypotheses simultaneously .. one is tired light, the other is curvature pressure which leads to 'modified Friedmann equations which have a simple solution for a uniform cosmic gas' ... (pages 8 & 9), although, it looks a bit like he's backing both horses to me(?)

His version of tired light is different as the scattering "medium" is spacetime rather than dust, gas and plasma.
The uniform cosmic gas remark typically relates to a hypothetical construct used for analysing a simplified cosmological model. For example the Einstein and De Sitter model of the static Universe analysed the case of evenly distributed matter which was found to collapse under gravity which forced Einstein to introduce an early 20th century version of dark energy.
In Crawford's case uniform cosmic gas is a simple hypothetical case of matter that doesn't collapse and is therefore a solution to the modified Friedmann equations which incidentally in their unmodified state form the backbone of BB theory.

Hmm .. I think he's proposing that the CMB is the end product of both scattering and curvature interactions .. so I'm not sure that, in that model, that the CMB structures could then be viewed as a test of the universe geometry(?)

The actual CMB structures themselves are unimportant it is the angular size and separation of the structures that allow the geometry to be determined.
Cosmologists find they can use flat triangulation rather like surveyors use.
Hence the observable Universe is for all intents and purposes flat.

Hmm .. interesting ..
There are cases of gravitational lensing that literally form a gigantic lens where the background galaxy is magnified and brightened.
This would seem to form a good test for his spherical spacetime redshift.

Well I found that his response of 'unknown' on the age of the universe question actually then conveniently constitutes immediate positive justification for skirting around Olber's p. As Jean Tate mentioned, it may be premature to ask the age question from the perspective of: 'because he hasn't figured out the model for it yet', but it pretty clearly makes all the difference!
The thread admittedly is about the data aspects, the theoretical side perhaps is some off topic but still relevant.

Do you mind if I ask questions at CQ based on our above discussion? I need to be careful as they aren't necessarily directly related to the SN lightcurve topic .. it would be great if they'd agree to discuss the cosmology, perhaps even as a separate 'Science & Technology Forum' thread(?)
No problems.
 
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sjastro

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A problem with the analysis of type Ia supernovae

I absolutely did select that exact equation it as the first equation that I selected from your post! What do you want, egg in your beer?



No, it's not because you're using that formula in the equation but r does not go to infinity when t₀ goes to infinity. r is limited by scattering in the medium, not by time or by the age of the universe! You therefore cannot just substitute a time/age related formula and set it arbitrarily high.



True, but r doesn't go to infinity when t₀ is infinitely large, so you can't just "combine" the formulas the way you did and thereby change the meaning and limits of r as you did.



I never said it disappears. I said it doesn't exist in a static universe and I pointed out that r doesn't go to infinity in a dusty static universe as a function of the age of the universe.



Scattering *was* fundamental in your equation (1) until you "combined" the offending equation (2) into your formula in equation (3) and then you inserted a large number in t₀.

CodeCogsEqn%20(1).gif


Where do you see an age of the universe related variable on the right hand side of = sign in equation (1)? It's not there and P(r) is not related to the age of the universe in any way.



I understand that you took a formula that has no relationship to the age of the universe and you *changed* it using an *inappropriate* conversion of r!



Do whatever you want, I really don't care if you want to cry wolf again. Your conversion of r in your "combined" equation (3) is still wrong because the age of the universe is irrelevant to equation (1) and it *should be* (but isn't) irrelevant in equation (3).
Will you stop this nonsense and at least refer to the correct post which you had done previously.
Look at the 4th equation.
A problem with the analysis of type Ia supernovae
 
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Michael

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W

Will you stop this nonsense and at least refer to the correct post which you had done previously.
Look at the 4th equation.
A problem with the analysis of type Ia supernovae

I was citing my own first response today to your (oversimplified) math formula.

The forth equation in your post is wrong because P(r) is dependent upon an *age* of the universe which is not the case with your first equation. P(r) is not dependent on the age of the universe in equation 1 and it should *not* be dependent on the age of the universe in equation 4 either. That's your problem in a nutshell.
 
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sjastro

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I was citing my own first response today to your (oversimplified) math formula.

The forth equation in your post is wrong because P(r) is dependent upon an *age* of the universe which is not the case with your first equation. P(r) is not dependent on the age of the universe in equation 1 and it should *not* be dependent on the age of the universe in equation 4 either. That's your problem in a nutshell.
You are wrong.
You seem to think P(r) means a P is function of r.
It is not a function, as r is not a variable but a number defined in the upper integral limit.
P(r) is the value of a definite integral which is a unique number.
When equations (2) and (3) are substituted into (1) to give equation (4), P(r) has the same value.

Also since equations (1) and (4) have the same dimensional unit in the numerator and denominator, the units cancel resulting in P(r) being a dimensionless unit independent of both distance and time which is expected of a probability value.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I've finally finished my write up on the Crawford paper mentioned in the OP. I've checked with my anonymous sources to try to get the best possible analysis. I'll post it shortly.

I see there is still some active discussion, I wonder if it is useful...

... OK, maybe. I see some equations by sjastro (I should find out how to mark those up, it would have helped!), some discussions of Olber's paradox (not interested), and what happens on CosmoQuest (even less interested).

I'll read over the rest of the thread later, while you take the time to digest my next post.
 
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Michael

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You are wrong.

No I'm not. Your third equation is an invalid substitution because your first equation has nothing whatsoever to do with the age of the universe. There is no such thing in a static universe, and photons cannot travel forever in a dusty plasma universe.
 
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Michael

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I've finally finished my write up on the Crawford paper mentioned in the OP. I've checked with my anonymous sources to try to get the best possible analysis. I'll post it shortly.

I see there is still some active discussion, I wonder if it is useful...

... OK, maybe. I see some equations by sjastro (I should find out how to mark those up, it would have helped!), some discussions of Olber's paradox (not interested), and what happens on CosmoQuest (even less interested).

I'll read over the rest of the thread later, while you take the time to digest my next post.

Thank you. I look forward to it.
 
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Hans Blaster

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The paper linked in the OP by David Crawford examines a critical consequence of the standard ( consensus, big bang ) cosmology -- time dilation.

Redshift and time dilation

Time dilation is a natural consequence of expanding universe cosmology in Einstein's general relativity (GR). Time dilation makes events in the distant (early) universe appear to happen slower at Earth than their intrinsic duration in the distant past. For example, an event with an intrinsic duration of 1 day occurring in the distant universe might be observed to last for 1.2 days, or 1.5,days, or 2 days or longer if it occurred further and further away.

In standard cosmologies, time dilation is associated with redshift, which is typically denoted as "z". An event with an intrinsic duration t_0 will have an apparent duration t(z) = t_0 ( 1 + z ).

Redshift, as the name suggests, is related to distant objects appearing "redder" that is there observed wavelengths are shifted to longer values than the intrinsic emitted values. Intrinsically "blue" light might appear green if slightly redshifted, red if shifted more, or even be shifted into the near or far infrared.

Like for time dilation, there are simple mathematical formulations to describe the wavelength. If the intrinsic emitted wavelength is labeled "a" the observed wavelength b = ( 1 + z ) a. Redshift of distant objects can be measured by identifying specific lines from specific elements and comparing the observed values. For example, the most prominent line of the most common element in the universe is Balmer series line at 656 nm (n = 3 -> 2 transition). If this line is observed at 787 nm, the object has a redshift of 0.2. [787 = ( 1 + 0.2 ) * 656 ] The same line from an object at z = 0.5 would be observed at b = 984 nm, etc.

In standard GR, expanding cosmologies redshift corresponds to distance as more distant parts of the universe has expanded more than more nearby parts.

It is this connection between redshift, expansion, and time dilation that Crawford's paper attempts to test. In non-standard cosmologies, such as static, or non-expanding, universes redshifts arise not from expansion, but some other effect ("tired light" is often used term, whatever that means) and there is no time dilation correlated with the redshift. For example, using the previously noted Balmer line of hydrogen and event with 1 day duration. If the same event was observed at redshift of 0.5 (the Balmer line observed at 984 nm) it would seem to last 1.5 days in a standard cosmology and only 1 day in the static, non-expanding cosmology.

So what is needed to test time dilation is a type of event with a well defined duration that can be observed in distant universe so that observed durations can be compared to their intrinsic durations. Crawford proposes that supernovae of type Ia are appropriate test objects. So, what are they?

Type Ia supernovae and cosmology


Type Ia supernovae are a specific sub-class of exploding stars that are all quite similar to each other. The escape of light from the expanding ejecta of the explosion leaves characteristic spectral features (relative brightnesses at different wavelengths in the same object at the same time) and light curves. A light curve is the pattern of brightness of an object with time. Pulsating variable stars have light curves as they expand and contract over and over. Tumbling asteroids have light curves as different faces are pointed to an observer. Quasars have light curves as the engine ingests material.

Supernova light curves rise from faint (usually unseen) to brightnesses similar to an entire galaxy in a few weeks and then fade on similar time scales (or a bit slower) often with a long "tail". In Type Ia supernovae (the only ones I'll write about from here on) the rise and fall of the light curve is almost, but not identical among all objects. The differences in their light curves has be shown to be related to the peak brightness with the brightest objects taking the most time to rise and the most time to fall in brightness. Or, to state otherwise, the duration, or width, of the light curve is related to the brightness. Thus astronomers can use a local sample of supernovae with well established distances to calibrate the relationship between peak brightness and light curve width.

With the brightness/width correlation established the intrinsic brightness of a cosmologically distant supernova can be determined by measuring the light curve width. Once the intrinsic brightness is known, the ratio of the intrinsic brightness to the brightness measured at Earth can be used to determine the geometry of the Universe. The relationship between distance and redshift is a fundamental property of any cosmology.

Now there is a further complication to this story, namely that the width of the light curve depends on the wavelength observed due to properties of the supernova ejecta, such that if you observe the same supernova in a blue filter and a red filter it will evolve slower in the red filter (wider light curve).

To use Type Ia supernovae as a test of cosmological time dilation requires that we be able to separate these effects: intrinsic width due to differences in intrinsic brightness, intrinsic width due to intrinsic wavelength effects, and time dilation. Which brings us to the Crawford paper...

Analysis of the Crawford paper

I'll skip the introduction and go straight to Figure 1 where he shows the dependence of the light curve width on wavelength, but before proceeding we must discuss the two primary ways that astronomers observe objects: spectroscopy and photometry.

A spectrum the brightness of an object at every wavelength. If we took a narrow beam of sunlight through a slit into a dark room and passed it through a prism we would see rainbow-like pattern projected onto the wall (this is what Newton did). This is the spectrum of the Sun. If we were to look closely we could see narrow dark likes where a very narrow color seemed to be mostly or completely gone. These come from absorption lines of specific atoms in the solar atmosphere. One of those lines would be the 656 nm hydrogen Balmer line discussed above. Each element has a specific pattern of lines and if we used a proper spectroscope to scan carefully the solar spectrum we would see thousands of lines where the brightness dipped a little or a lot. The wavelength dependent pattern of emission will be designated as S(a). (The (a) indicating that the spectrum is a function of the intrinsic wavelength a.)

The best observation of the supernova would be a series of spectra [ S(b,t) ] detailing its evolution, but spectra require lots telescope time (or large telescopes) than photometry, so photometry is often used. Photometry is about taking the starlight and measuring the total light detected after it passes through a filter. These filters are not dissimilar to the filters used in color photography to separate visible light into Red, Green, and Blue. Astronomical filters also exist for shorter wavelengths (ultraviolet) and longer wavelengths. The filter brightness, F, is a convolution of the filter response function, g(b), and the observed spectrum , S(b). (In pseudo LaTeX) the measured light curve for the filter would be

F(t) = \int S(b,t) g(b) db

where "\int" is the way an integral is written in the LaTeX typesetting mark-up language.

Ok, now to figure 1 of Crawford's paper...

Crawford took the template supernova spectra (found here: start [SALT]) and measure the width at every available wavelength. The data in the "salt2_template_0.dat" file used are a series of template spectra at fixed points in the time history of a supernova. At every wavelength the history of the brightness was examine, the peak brightness found, and the width determined by finding the time when the brightness at that wavelength reaches 1/2 the peak before and after peak and measuring the time between those two half-peak points as the width. The width "W" is plotted in figure 1 for all available wavelengths after dividing by a reference width of 22 days. So far so good.

Since the width, W, is a function of wavelength, a, we can ask whether a simple curve can be fit. Crawford fits a power law ( a function in the form W(a) = C * a^e ) and gets C is about 1.9 and e = 1.2 when expressing wavelength in micrometers (or microns). The fit is pretty good for short wavelengths (a = 0.2 to 0.5 micron) passing through the central locus of the points. (Power laws don't have "wiggles" so it shouldn't be expected to match every feature, just the overall trend.) At longer wavelengths (a > 0.5 micron or 500 nm) the fit passes reasonably through the points above the green line, but does a poor job with those below. The green line separates the points Crawford used in his fit (above) from those he excluded. Excluding points from a fit isn't necessarily a bad practice as there are many reasonable causes to do so (large error bars, data collection problems, existing explanations for the deviation that are being set aside to look at something else, etc.), but his choice here represents a significant comprehension error in understanding the data set. We'll get to that shortly.

Leaving out the scaling constants, the width is proportional to a simple power law function of wavelength:

W(a) ~ a^(1.2)

So how is this impacted by redshift (and redshift alone)?

If we call the width of a measured (at Earth) supernova as Q(b), how does this behave?

The first thing we have to remember is that the observed wavelength, b, does not uniquely describe an intrinsic wavelength, a, since b = a (1+z) so the observed width is a function of b and z, Q(b,z). Observing W(a) at Earth from a supernova at redshift z will have a width Q(b,z) = a^(1.2), where we substitute a = b/(1+z) into the expression to get:

Q(b,z) = X(z) * b^1.2/(1+z)^1.2

Wait! What's X(z)?

I've inserted a time dilation factor X(z) into the expression. In a standard, BB/GR, expanding cosmology X(z) = 1+z in a non-expanding static cosmology it might be X(z) = 1. The whole point of this paper is to measure X(z), even if it's not written this specific way in the paper.

In an expanding BB cosmology with X(z) = 1+z, Q(b,z) "simplifies" to

Q(b,z) = b^1.2 * (1+z)^(-0.2)

(note that 1/(x^2) can be written as x^(-2).)

So it has the expected dependence on observed wavelength that comes from the intrinsically slower evolution at longer wavelengths when observing the same supernova with different filters, but only a weak dependence on redshift. (1+z)^(-0.2) is 1 at z = 0 and 0.87 at z = 1.

The two effects "red light curves are intrinsically slower" and "time dilation" roughly cancel for a sequence of supernovae at different redshifts at a specific observed wavelength, b. How does this work?

First we need to remember that redshift is causing the light observed from distant objects to shift in wavelength. For example, the light observed at 500 nm at Earth is 500 nm if observed for a local supernova (z = 1), but was emitted at 400 nm if the supernova has z = 0.25 and was emitted at 250 nm if the supernova was at z = 1. In the latter two cases the measured width, Q, corresponds to intrinsic light curve widths of W(400 nm) and W(250 nm), respectively.

The same applies to filters. If we have a filter that measures all light received between 400 and 500 nm ( b = [400,500] ) the intrinsic range of emitted wavelengths of the supernova light measured in that filter would be a = [400,500] for the local z = 0 supernova (no shift, b=a), a=[320,400] for the z=0.25 supernova, and a=[200,250] for the distant z = 1 supernova. So at higher and higher redshifts, the light observed in a specific filter was emitted at shorter and shorter intrinsic wavelengths, where we have already seen, the light curve changes faster.

The shifting of the light in the filters is true no matter what the origin of the redshift is as it is merely a property of the shift of the wavelength and not the origin of the shift. But, in a static, non-dilating cosmology the light curves should get significantly faster with redshift in a fixed, ~(1+z)^(-1.2), since the filter measures light from bluer, and therefore faster changing, parts of the supernova emission without the compensating effect of time dilation. [
That's not what happens.
]

Trigger warning: If you think Crawford's paper will demonstrate there is no time dilation, brace yourself, because it's time for...

Crawford's blunder:

Let's go back to the "green line" of exclusion in figure 1. Quoting from the opening paragraph of section 3.2:

"The green line ... shows the lower[sic] limit of where the fitted widths are valid. After all if this variation in widths is of cosmological origin it must be a smooth function of wavelength."

Oh, boy! What can we say here. It isn't of cosmological origin. The source of the data for the sequence of template spectra used to make figure 1 explicitly says that these are models of the sequence intrinsic spectral changes in a standard type Ia supernova.

So what are spectral templates? They are smoothed and idealized versions of carefully calibrated, well observed normal type Ia supernovae from nearby galaxies where the tiny redshifts are not cosmological, but originate from relative motions of galaxies. Observations from several supernovae have been combined and then smoothed fits are made to represent their "average" at several fixed epochs. In essence, what the authors of this paper:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2005A%26A...443..781G

are saying about their templates is that for "normal" supernovae this is what they really look like if you have a perfect instrument placed nearby. (Don't get to close, it will burn you!) Things go downhill from here...

Crawford then stumbles through his assumptions to the statement "the raw light curves would have widths that would be proportional to (1+z)^(-0.199)." where I think by "raw" he means the reported, observed values in standard astronomical filters. But the conclusion of the section seems to betray his deep misunderstanding: "If the standard time dilation is present then the rest frame spectrum must have a dependence of [wavelength]^1.199 which seems rather large should be rather obvious in the widths between different filters for low redshift supernovae." This is a really odd thing to say since he just showed that (at least the blue part) of the spectrum does have an intrinsic wavelength dependence of a^(1.2).

His "counterpoint" in section 3.3 (and Table 2) is in part that the z = 0 starting points of the widths (which he calls V_0 in Table 2) should have a strong a^(1.2) dependence, but the actual list of filters used in the observations include many which are on the red half of range in Figure 1, and whether he wants to exclude them or not, include individual wavelengths with low W(a). I don't know exactly how those would affect the variations in intrinsic width for various filter bands (how supernova light curves are actually observed and reported) but it does not surprise me that the redder filters do not give drastically slower light curves given the low values of W(a) in the red for some wavelengths.

Aside: It occurs to me that the methodology in figure 1 was not the best. If you want to understand how filters respond, why not make some idealized "artificial" filters. A boxcar or Gaussian of some width evaluated at all possible wavelengths on the templates and then compute a fitting function for the central wavelength of a filter. I suspect it would be similar to what he has in the blue, but the red may not have fit the trend.


Figure 2

For his next analysis, Crawford takes a large database of observed supernovae (I didn't track it down) and measures the width of the observed light curves using a simple template (presumably like the one used in the template spectrum analysis of figure 1) and fits a width. After dividing by the V_0 (Table 2) for that filter, which seems reasonable, he plots them in Figure 2 relative to their redshift and then fits a line to the collective set. His line indicates that V(z) (what he uses instead of Q(b,z)) as the wavelength independent (or normalized) light curve width is consistent with being a constant (V(z) = 1). This is also not inconsistent with the Q(F,z) = Q(F) * z^(-0.2) I showed above for an expanding cosmology. Crawford somehow believes that the expanding universe model should have a positive slope for his V(z) (apparently V(z) = 1 + z, which would be the time dilation you'd expect if redshift itself had no impact on observed light curve widths) and so plots his "expanding cosmology" line on the plot to show how bad it "fails".

Wrapping up...

There are a few other things I could write, but this has gone on long enough. I'm not sure why the author made such large errors, but they should have been caught before publication. So, shame on the editors of "Open Astronomy" for not having it properly reviewed. Someone who really knew the topic could do a much more complete job than I did.
 
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SelfSim

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Hans: Thank you kindly for taking the time to provide that analysis. Much appreciated.

I only have a feeling at the moment but I think you have identified the same issues with the paper as the poster: 'UT4Life' at Cosmoquest here? (I'll have to let some dust settle, following your post, in order to see the overlaps more clearly).

Fyi: Crawford is attempting to respond on the matter from here onwards (which you may find interesting).

Cheers & Rgds

PS: UT4Life's final paragraph in post #109 is a little less eloquent than yours but I think it conveys a similar conclusion(?)
 
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sjastro

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No I'm not. Your third equation is an invalid substitution because your first equation has nothing whatsoever to do with the age of the universe. There is no such thing in a static universe, and photons cannot travel forever in a dusty plasma universe.
You are totally clueless.
Equation(1) is expressed in distance coordinates.
Equations (2) and (3) are transformation equations to convert equation(1) into time coordinates which leads to equation(4).

If the transformation equation(3) is invalid then P(r) cannot have the same value in equations(1) and (4).
Here is your glorious opportunity to show equation(3) is an invalid substitution by proving equation(1)≠equation(4).
 
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SelfSim

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sjastro said:
You are wrong.
No I'm not. Your third equation is an invalid substitution because your first equation has nothing whatsoever to do with the age of the universe. There is no such thing in a static universe, and photons cannot travel forever in a dusty plasma universe.
sjastro is correct because his argument is based on the rigorous logic embedded in standard math operations. The truth value is basically undeniable (except for extremists).

This sub-conversation is a classic example of Michael declaring he is right because he says so.

I don't know what it will take for proponents of Michael's method to realise that the 'It is what it is .. because I say so' argument in debating, is totally devoid of meaning, contribution, and any sense of value for the purpose of substantiating one's claims .. whatsoever(?)
 
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Michael

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sjastro is correct because his argument is based on the rigorous logic embedded in standard math operations.

Rigorous logic? Please! What a *riot*!

A problem with the analysis of type Ia supernovae

I listed *many* complicated factors that sjastro's ridiculously oversimplified math formula doesn't begin to address.

Even the basic argument of Obler's paradox is absurd because it talks about shells and going out to twice the distance and finding more stars in that larger shell, but that is not even *close* to how it actually works in the real universe in the first place.

If I take a shell that's 1 AU (Sun to Earth distance), and I expand that shell by a factor of 2, there aren't four stars in that expanded shell but brightness decreases by a factor of four and anything *beyond* that second shell cannot be nearly as bright as the sun in the first shell. The moment that we include *any* amount of scattering taking place, the whole argument falls completely apart too as evidenced by the fact that sjastro didn't include *any* of the complicating factors that I listed in my first response.

This sub-conversation is a classic example of Michael declaring he is right because he says so.

No, it's a classic example of you two hijacking the thread again (unlike Hans), and declaring yourself right because you say so based on some obscure and ridiculous claim, and tossing in a little bit of oversimplified math.

The whole Obler's paradox claim is utter nonsense, and it's pure nonsense that sjastro demonstrated anything *close* to what I asked him for to begin with.

I give Hans a great deal of credit (and appreciation) for *not* hijacking the thread like you two, and for sticking to the *topic of the paper*. *By far* his post is the best one of this entire thread and it's far better than anything posted at CQ in almost three weeks of debate. He obviously spent real time on *the topic* of this thread (the paper listed in the OP). Hans is a class act. Neither of you two have that kind of skill therefore you hijack every thread.
 
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sjastro

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I've finally finished my write up on the Crawford paper mentioned in the OP. I've checked with my anonymous sources to try to get the best possible analysis. I'll post it shortly.

I see there is still some active discussion, I wonder if it is useful...

... OK, maybe. I see some equations by sjastro (I should find out how to mark those up, it would have helped!), some discussions of Olber's paradox (not interested), and what happens on CosmoQuest (even less interested).

I'll read over the rest of the thread later, while you take the time to digest my next post.
I use an online LaTex editor.
Online LaTeX Equation Editor - create, integrate and download

Save the LaTex images on a server and import them using the image command.
 
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sjastro

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Rigorous logic? Please! What a *riot*!

A problem with the analysis of type Ia supernovae

I listed *many* complicated factors that sjastro's ridiculously oversimplified math formula doesn't begin to address.

Even the basic argument of a Obler's paradox is absurd because it talks about shells and going out to twice the distance and finding more stars in that larger shell, but that is not even *close* to how it actually works in the real universe in the first place.

If it take a shell that's 1 AU (Sun to Earth distance), and I expand that shell by a factor of 2, there aren't four stars in that expanded shell but brightness decreases by a factor of four and anything *beyond* that second shell cannot be nearly as bright as the sun in the first shell. The moment that we include *any* amount of scattering taking place, the whole argument falls completely apart too as evidenced by the fact that sjastro didn't include *any* of the complicating factors that I listed in my first response.

Not only is maths beyond you but evidently simple English.
It has been explained to you that Olber's paradox is the worst case scenario of scattering where no light gets through and what does reach the observer is based on statistical outcomes.

I'm still waiting on your proof that equation(1)≠equation(4).

No, it's a classic example of you two hijacking the thread again (unlike Hans), and declaring yourself right because you say so based on some obscure and ridiculous claim, and tossing in a little bit of oversimplified math.

The whole Obler's paradox claim is utter nonsense, and it's pure nonsense that sjastro demonstrated anything *close* to what I asked him for to begin with.

I give Hans a great deal of credit (and appreciation) for *not* hijacking the thread like you two, and for sticking to the *topic of the paper*. *By far* his post is the best one of this entire thread and it's far better than anything posted at CQ in almost three weeks of debate. He obviously spent real time on *the topic* of this thread (the paper listed in the OP). Hans is a class act. Neither of you two have that kind of skill therefore you hijack every thread.

This is not only childish but probably embarrassing to Hans.
 
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Rigorous logic? Please! What a *riot*!

A problem with the analysis of type Ia supernovae

I listed *many* complicated factors that sjastro's ridiculously oversimplified math formula doesn't begin to address.
Your 'complicated factors' are taken into account in the abstracted model described by sjastro, and in the Wiki description of Olber's paradox.

Michael said:
Even the basic argument of Obler's paradox is absurd because it talks about shells and going out to twice the distance and finding more stars in that larger shell, but that is not even *close* to how it actually works in the real universe in the first place.
Depends on the size and age of one's universe. Please describe how a static universe can have a finite age. Crawford knows this cannot be so also .. so he just dodged the issue without explaining the problem.

Michael said:
... The moment that we include *any* amount of scattering taking place, the whole argument falls completely apart too as evidenced by the fact that sjastro didn't include *any* of the complicating factors that I listed in my first response.
They are taken into account .. so you don't have to worry about that.

Michael said:
No, it's a classic example of you two hijacking the thread again (unlike Hans), and declaring yourself right because you say so based on some obscure and ridiculous claim, and tossing in a little bit of oversimplified math.

The whole Obler's paradox claim is utter nonsense, and it's pure nonsense that sjastro demonstrated anything *close* to what I asked him for to begin with.
No hijack at all. Olber's paradox is a relevant and efficient way to highlight the problems of Crawford's cosmology. Its flawed ... as is also beginning to be revealed by UT4Life's and Han's specific analyses. We'll be hook up shortly with Hans and UT4Life arguments shortly .. and all will be revealed for you .. We are simply coming at it from another angle.

So far your only defence is an errored criticism of standard math operations .. which is obviously a losing argument.

Michael said:
I give Hans a great deal of credit (and appreciation) for *not* hijacking the thread like you two, and for sticking to the *topic of the paper*. *By far* his post is the best one of this entire thread and it's far better than anything posted at CQ in almost three weeks of debate. He obviously spent real time on *the topic* of this thread (the paper listed in the OP). Hans is a class act. Neither of you two have that kind of skill therefore you hijack every thread.
You see it as a hijack because, I think,you just don't understand how and why abstracted models can reveal testable results (and then go on pass those tests spectacularly).

I recommend some formal tuition in Physics.
 
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