A problem I'm having with obligations...

[TexasCatholic]

That's consubstantiation, not transubstantiation.

I think that defining and naming this process is futile and self-serving in the name of the Church, as did many of the Early Church Fathers.... I say, accept that it's a miracle, yes... and move on. It's silly to give it a name and get technical. Doing so gives credit to the science/opinion of mortal men on what really happens with the Eucharist. I refuse to believe any human knows.

-Michael

 

[TexasCatholic]

As is the case with most non-Catholics (and many Catholics), your problem is with the authority of the Church. I'm not putting you down, just pointing it out to you.

Yes, I am still struggling with authority. I have a difficult time submitting to human authority in matters of faith, and it will take time for me to figure out if I truly can or not.

As for Sunday obligations; what can we say to you?

What I'm looking for is a Church-father-era (1, 2 or 3 century) writing that backs up the Dogma, either explicitly or in implication. I am fully understanding of the reality that the church fathers were often silent on points that were not in contention.

Although you state you are a history buff, that does not mean that you are educated in history germaine to the Catholic Church. As such, make a concerted effort to read the writings of the early church fathers. In those writings you will come to find that the doctrines that you may disagree with, in fact, originated from the Church's inception.

That's what I'm looking for. I've read excerps from Clement, Ignatius and a host of other early church fathers, mostly related to Papal authority (reading Upon This Rock by Stephen K. Ray). Although it is established through their writings (as well as Justin Martyr and so on) that it is tradition to meet on Sundays for mass (something I don't dispute and/or have issue with -- I was just pointing out to someone earlier that Sunday is indeed an arbitrarily assigned day, and not in fact a day upon which the resurrection occurred), my question is whether it was obligatory in the sense of being considered a "grave" or "mortal" sin to miss a single mass. I am fully understanding that if someone doesn't go to church for months or years at a time, that this is sin... I am looking for evidence that missing a week was considered this grave. Surely during those early days it had to have been difficult to attend every single week. When did it become dogma that it is a sin to miss a single week?

This brings up another issue with the Catechism, which is that it is not defined what each belief in the Catechism is...e.g. Dogma, Doctrine, Tradition, etc, when it was established and so on. I need all of that. The Catechism in itself is not an authoritative book.... It is simply a complilation of authoritative materials at varying degrees of authority... if you disagree, please elaborate.

But the main issue here is obviously "authority". Good luck with it. Pray hard, pray fervently, and pray often. I'm sure you will do well.

You're right.... that is the main issue. I am struggling and making a very, very earnest attempt. I'm reading, praying and taking it in as fast as I can.

God Bless,

-Michael

 

[Skripper]

It's an hour a week on a specific day, and within a specific timeframe as provided by a local parish/church. My personal opinion is that Sunday is an arbitrary day decided upon for worship (I have a B.A. in History, so I like reading on history, and IMO, the day we know as Easter was not a Sunday... Sunday was an arbitrarily determined day for worship).

This is not true, Michael. Your B.A. in History notwithstanding, this is not “arbitrary.” Jesus really and truly died on the day we call Friday and really and truly rose on the day we call Sunday, according to Sacred Tradition. Though even if this were not the case, and truly was arbitrary, if you think about it, it's not really relevant, IMO.

In other words, the fact that it's in the Catechism isn't good enough. I need the history and doctrinal basis...

You may not get it, not here at CF anyway. Moreover, and with all due respect, I think you are going about this the wrong way. What I mean is, what you are basically saying is, I need “proof,” to my own satisfaction, beyond the say-so of the Church that thus-and-such is true or before I will submit my will to the Church regarding this or that teaching. In this particular case, “thus-and-such” happens to be related to Sunday Mass obligation. This may be an appropriate, even logical approach to making certain types of decisions . . . like which car to buy or something similar. But it is not the proper approach in seeking divine truth, to basically place our self in a position where we sit in judgment of every single Catholic teaching and refuse to submit to the Church until every doctrine can be explained to our own personal satisfaction. This is not the proper way to go about seeking religious and divine truth.



Either the Catholic Church is who and what she says she is, or she is not. Either she is divinely instituted, with Jesus Christ as her Founder, or she is not. Either she has the divine protection promised in the Bible against doctrinal error, or she does not. Either she is, in her official teaching capacity, the authentic and duly appointed voice of God on earth . . . or she is not. If she is who and what she claims to be, (or if we believe her to be), then demanding she provide the “proof” for each of her doctrines/dogmas/teachings that we may not fully understand or agree with is, so to speak, majoring in the minors and is also, to put it mildly, extremely inappropriate. On the other hand, if she is not who and what she claims to be, then any “proof” is meaningless. It is not our job to search for/demand “proof” for every single doctrine until we are satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt, as if we are the judge in a courtroom. It is our job to submit to the bona fide teachings of Christ’s Church, if indeed the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church.



Having said that, I will offer the following explanation, which you are free to accept or reject, since I am not an official spokesperson for the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, in the course and capacity of exercising her divinely appointed teaching office here on earth, has determined that Sunday Mass obligation is included in order to at least minimally observe the 3rd commandment.

Also, is this Dogma or?

I would say yes, although I’m not positive. But dogma or not, informed Catholics are bound by it.

I also was not suggesting that my actions should be judged comparatively with others. I'm just saying I am/will be a regular attender... but every once in a while, I will miss. I am sorry to say, I don't think that's sinful.

Thanks,



-Michael

Each person will be judged according to his/her own personal level of spiritual understanding and maturity. To he who has been given much, much will be demanded (Luke 12: 47-48) We will be judged accordingly.

 

[AlinaK]

I usually go to Saturday Mass as well because it is very convienent for my family. We usually get home around 7.30pm so Katya still has plently of time to go join her friends sleepover, or go and meet them for coffee or even just have a relaxing night at home! I get to go watch my 9 & 11 year old nephews soccer games and go to McDonalds with them for their weekly treat as well as get a some time to just lie in bed past 7am on Sunday morning. I find it just works better for us.

 

[DivineFiliation]

Hi guys,

I am having a bit of a psychological and logistical issue with obligatory Sunday Mass attendance. The issue isn't that I don't wish to regulary attend church. I both intend to, and do. Though I am just doing my discovery of the Catholic Church, I have "regularly" attended church (either Catholic or Protestant) for quite sometime. However, "regular attendance" and "obligatory attendance" are two things I find mutually exclusive. I do not always find that it is reasonable to tell me that I have committed a "mortal sin" by not attending church on a particular week...

For instance, if I'm on a vacation. I sometimes attend church on vacation, but sometimes it is not feasible to do so. I do not feel I should have to be "pardoned" by a priest for not attending. The majority percentage of Catholics don't attend any church at all except major holidays. Technically, they are all committing numerous mortal sins according to the Church rules, right??

While I do not agree that they should only attend mass on holidays, I do not feel that I should feel I am in "mortal sin" if I miss a week or two a year for personal reasons that I have no obligation to explain. Sometimes "getting away for a weekend" means getting away from all other people, including the people at church. I pray, I read the Bible, etc. I have no problem substituting that for corporate worship every once in a while... Not habitually, certainly, but every once in a while. I don't like the idea that church attendance on Sunday is encouraged through the use of eternal damnation as the motivator.

By the way, I am an RCIA Candidate (currently attending).... so I'm not a troll, this is a genuine problem/concern I have.

Thank you,

Michael

Michael, one of my faults is that I am not as knowledgable about the catechism as others in here so my posts are usually just drawn from my experience or heart.

The simplist way I can put this is that if you get into the habit of not going to church when you don't feel like it and only going ot church when you do, is that you aren't surrounding yourself with God's love at all times! Think about it this way... what if your wife (or any other loved one) only wanted to be around you at times when they wanted to be around you? ... don't you think that would hurt your feelings? God is our father and one hour a week is really not much to give back.

It is imperative that we continue to go in the "down times" because then we won't go on permanent vacation from the church... I know because I've been there. I'd only go when I wanted to and then I ended up staying away for months and then it took darn near a year to actually feel his grace again.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

 

[AMDG]

The way I UNDERSTAND the reason for the Church's "obligations" (Sunday Mass, at least yearly Communion/Confession, Holy Days of Obligation--all of the Precepts of the Church) and why WILLFULLY disobeying them is a mortal sin, is that the Church is a MOTHER and we are her children. Mothers are VERY concerned about their children's welfare (you know how a secular mother, knowing that her child MUST eat to be well, will INSIST that her children "finish their supper") and so the Church is VERY concerned about our welfare (how will we continue to be well in our Faith if we only partake of Jesus once in a blue moon?) and so.... But there's more, Jesus gave AUTHORITY to the Church. So when we willingly disobey what the Church says, we are breaking one of the Commandments that deal with "honoring rightful AUTHORITY".

 

[Michelina]

I believe that through a mystery that only God understands (not the Church, not a priest, not a layman, not the pope), the elements are both bread & wine and the body & blood of Christ.

That's consubstantiation, not transubstantiation.

I think that defining and naming this process is futile and self-serving in the name of the Church, as did many of the Early Church Fathers.... I say, accept that it's a miracle, yes... and move on. It's silly to give it a name and get technical. Doing so gives credit to the science/opinion of mortal men on what really happens with the Eucharist. I refuse to believe any human knows.

If you are waiting for the day that you understand every doctrine of the Faith, yours is a vain dream which will only be fulfilled in heaven. Transubstantiation is a dogmatically defined doctrine of the Church. Catholics are required to believe it not to understand it. No one on this planet understands it. Your insinuation that a priest or Pope would understand it comes out of the Protestant milieu in which your mind was formed.

Authority is, as you admit, your problem. When Our Lord spoke of His Body and Blood in Jn 6,66 "From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve. Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

We believe as Peter did, not because we understand but because we trust Jesus. We believe that He established A Church and gave Her the authority to teach and pastor in His Name. That is essential to Catholicism. If you are waiting to understand the mysteries of the Faith before you believe, may God be with you.

Your historical studies may prove quite unsatisfactory. The Church begins with simple acts of Faith. Reflection on these truths gradually sheds more light on them. They are dogmatically stated only when they are challenged. E.g., the Protestant Deformation to some extent challenged the Real Presence, so Trent defined it in the very specific terms we call Transubstantion.

When you come to the point that you realize that the Church teaches and pastors in the name of Jesus, you will be able to believe (on His authority) what the feeble human mind cannot understand.

Dominus tecum, Michael!

 

[Michelina]

The way I UNDERSTAND the reason for the Church's "obligations" (Sunday Mass, at least yearly Communion/Confession, Holy Days of Obligation--all of the Precepts of the Church) and why WILLFULLY disobeying them is a mortal sin, is that the Church is a MOTHER and we are her children. Mothers are VERY concerned about their children's welfare (you know how a secular mother, knowing that her child MUST eat to be well, will INSIST that her children "finish their supper") and so the Church is VERY concerned about our welfare (how will we continue to be well in our Faith if we only partake of Jesus once in a blue moon?) and so.... But there's more, Jesus gave AUTHORITY to the Church. So when we willingly disobey what the Church says, we are breaking one of the Commandments that deal with "honoring rightful AUTHORITY".

Beautifully stated, AMDG!

 

[Maggie893]

Hey Southcoast,

Praise God that you are in the program learning about the Catholic Church; and I truly mean that, I praise God for the work He is continuing in you. I completely understand your need for the facts, I was in your shoes not long ago. I may just be adding more words to the fray but as a means of positive reinforcement I would suggest a couple of things.

The reason that assisting at Mass on Sunday or it's vigil and on Holy Days is a mortal sin has to with it's impact on our relationship with God. As Skripper noted the commandments say, "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy." Exodus 10:8. The Christian Church acknowledges Sunday for various reasons noted above by many as that Sabbath day. We as Catholics keep it holy not by just gathering to hear the Word of God, which in itself is important, but to re-present the sacrifice of our Lord as the only atonement for our daily sins.

As we conform to the Divine will (which by the way requires both obedience and surrender, tough stuff) we desire to be present as fully with Christ as we can. The call to celebrate the Lord's Supper is a call from Christ himself. He reaches out to each of us in a unique way at every Mass we attend. It is also a moment of living Heaven on Earth. Conforming to the will of God means striving to live out His will on earth as it is in Heaven. The more often we experience Heaven on Earth the less of Earth we wish to experience. I think you will find that you will desire the Mass more often once you begin to walk in the light of Eucharist. Your desire to "get away" (into the world) will be less and your desire to "get away"(from the world) will be greater. Let God do this work at His pace. He knows what is right for you.

There will be times when you are unable to attend a Mass and if through no conscience fault of your own you miss Mass you are not in Mortal sin. If you choose to not attend when you could that's a different story. I travel often for business and before I even leave my house I check out www.masstimes.org and find a Mass in the area I am going that fits my schedule. I also love visiting different churches.

I'll be honest I've changed 180 degrees since I first returned to the Church regarding obedience. I am now quite thankful that the Church has written this "rule" down. Many times I feel tired, burned out or just not up for dealing with people and would love to skip Mass but I go, knowing that Christ is present and waiting for me in a unique way. Always I am blessed but sometimes it takes that nudge, "I don't want to have to confess this for no good reason" to push me through the door. Once when I did have to confess it I received such a beautiful direction from the Priest which I have never forgotten. He showed me how attending Mass was a visible fidelity to Our Lord. It's not just about being with others or even wanting it for ourselves and our own growth but it's about pleasing, comforting, and loving Jesus in a special way. We choose fidelity to so many people; spouses, children, friends. We would never let them down. As Jesus waits for us to be present with Him in His sacrifice we have a special opportunity to love Him with our presence.

The Mass is done throughout the world every day at various times during the day. Part of our commitment as Christians is to keep the rememberence of Christ and Him crucified. If everyone said "Well not today, I need a break from that whole church thing", it would be left only to the priests of the Church to commemorate Christ. That is far from the unity of the body of Christ that Jesus himself pleaded to the Father for.

John 17:
I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

Finally I would just add that in your search for knowledge, check out Scott Hann's book, The Lamb's Supper. I think you will really appreciate it.

Blessings to you,
Maggie

 

[Magisterium]

Hi guys,

I am having a bit of a psychological and logistical issue with obligatory Sunday Mass attendance. The issue isn't that I don't wish to regulary attend church. I both intend to, and do. Though I am just doing my discovery of the Catholic Church, I have "regularly" attended church (either Catholic or Protestant) for quite sometime. However, "regular attendance" and "obligatory attendance" are two things I find mutually exclusive. I do not always find that it is reasonable to tell me that I have committed a "mortal sin" by not attending church on a particular week...

For instance, if I'm on a vacation. I sometimes attend church on vacation, but sometimes it is not feasible to do so. I do not feel I should have to be "pardoned" by a priest for not attending. The majority percentage of Catholics don't attend any church at all except major holidays. Technically, they are all committing numerous mortal sins according to the Church rules, right??

While I do not agree that they should only attend mass on holidays, I do not feel that I should feel I am in "mortal sin" if I miss a week or two a year for personal reasons that I have no obligation to explain. Sometimes "getting away for a weekend" means getting away from all other people, including the people at church. I pray, I read the Bible, etc. I have no problem substituting that for corporate worship every once in a while... Not habitually, certainly, but every once in a while. I don't like the idea that church attendance on Sunday is encouraged through the use of eternal damnation as the motivator.

By the way, I am an RCIA Candidate (currently attending).... so I'm not a troll, this is a genuine problem/concern I have.

Thank you,

Michael

Peace be to you,

It seems to me that that the internal conflicts here stem primarily from two sources. The first of which would be submission and adherance to the authority of the church. I think this problem has been thoroughly discussed so far in this thread so I won't reiterate.

However, behind the authority of the church to bind and to unbind, there is an underlying drive and purpose. That is love. In Jn 21:15-17, our Lord asks Peter three times "do you love me?" and three times he instructs Peter "feed my sheep". This exchange demonstrates for us that the foundation of the Church's leadership and guidance is and must always be love.

In the old testament, the people of Isreal never had to perform ritual sacrifices until they left Egypt. The rules of ritual sacrifice came about because of the idolatry taken on in Egypt. The reason that sacrifices became ritual was because God knew that if His people had to burn an ox every few weeks, they would be less likely to worship one.

Likewise, the church is aware of the negative influences in modern society and prescribes certain bare minimum acts which help to protect us in our faith. The primary purpose of attending mass is to receive our Lord substantially in the eucharist. The graces recieved from the blessed sacrament are indispensible in the life of a Christian. The obligation of weekly mass attendance as well as the other obligations of a catholic are the bare minimum we should aspire to. The church prescribes these things for our spiritual benefit. Often, the dangers and injuries to our spiritual life from day to day go unnoticed because of our own spiritual infancy. The church knows all to well these daily injuries and dangers and thus prescribes for us, certain acts which should help us to overcome these detriments.

That said, as our faith grows and we come to recognize the church as the Body of Christ, we learn what our lord meant in Mt 11:30 when He said "... my yoke is easy, and my burden light."

God love you.

 

[TexasCatholic]

Thanks for all of the excellent input.

I most definitely realize that the "rules" are created in the spirit of love. If it were worded as such, it probably wouldn't bother me as it is right now. It goes back to the positive vs. negative reinforcement model. If the Church is analagous to a mother and child, then this is particularly appropriate. It is more effective to emphasize to your child the benefit of obeying the rule than to emphasize the punishment for not... Any successful parent will tell you as such. I think our Church leaders are sometimes misguided in the way they express these things, even if the end result is exactly what we need. Perhaps the negative reinforcement model (or the emphasis of the consequence rather than the grace one receives by attending mass regularly) is the reason why so many Catholics are holiday-only Catholics... Or worse, completely fallen away Catholics. This seems to represent the majority (and is part of the reason for society's negative image of Catholicism).

You have to understand that 1 year ago I was not even a church attender -- protestant OR Catholic. I had a good 8 year lapse in church attendance due to an overall disdain for (as I referred to it) "organized religion"... I was not fond of the Baptist/Fundamentalist literal interpretation of every piece of Scripture (obviously except for "this is my body"). I remember arguments in Sunday School with my teacher about how I felt there was no conflict between Genesis 1 (Creationism) and Evolution. The only thing lacking was the mention in Evolution Theory of the Divine Influence of God over exactly how things evolved. I thought I was going to be lynched out of church, heh. Someone I was dating, a protestant, brought me into an excellent, amazing, awesome non-denominational (quasi-Baptist, conservative, but with amazing music, sermons and presentation) church. I began attending regularly and growing by leaps and bounds spiritually... Realizing how much I had missed in those 8+ years since I had set foot in a church. I later began (or went back to, I should say) dating a Catholic girl... And, well, she also had recently grown by leaps and bounds in her faith since our last "dating encounter" (we've dated off and on over the course of 2 years)...and her newfound devoutness and dedication to the Catholic Church rammed directly into my newfound dedication to my own faith....

That story is in and of itself a novel, so I will leave it at that... it is only part of what brings me here. The Lord works in mysterious ways

Thanks for the thoughts/prayers... Keep them coming. I am working hard on this. Very hard.... I've got to make peace with this, because I'm at a point that I do not consider Protestantism complete any longer... If I can't reconcile with Catholic beliefs, I have a very serious problem to face, and I have to believe that real, objective Truth is out there.

-Michael

 

[Dark_Lite]

honestly, i'm not sure if it's Dogma or what. personally i like attending Sat. evening MAss here. it still falls under the obligation but it's way more convenient for me with kids to do it then and i've noticed the families are more abundant that night than on Sunday morning.
i've missed lately to having the flu aand feel this guilt which i don't feel i should feel because well, God understands we get sick but then i get eat up with still it's a small price to pay compared to what He did for you and then the guilt trip in my mind works overtime.

that's not right.....

Ah... Saturday evening Mass counts...

Kareconciled! (With one thing)