A problem I'm having with obligations...

[TexasCatholic]

Hi guys,

I am having a bit of a psychological and logistical issue with obligatory Sunday Mass attendance. The issue isn't that I don't wish to regulary attend church. I both intend to, and do. Though I am just doing my discovery of the Catholic Church, I have "regularly" attended church (either Catholic or Protestant) for quite sometime. However, "regular attendance" and "obligatory attendance" are two things I find mutually exclusive. I do not always find that it is reasonable to tell me that I have committed a "mortal sin" by not attending church on a particular week...

For instance, if I'm on a vacation. I sometimes attend church on vacation, but sometimes it is not feasible to do so. I do not feel I should have to be "pardoned" by a priest for not attending. The majority percentage of Catholics don't attend any church at all except major holidays. Technically, they are all committing numerous mortal sins according to the Church rules, right??

While I do not agree that they should only attend mass on holidays, I do not feel that I should feel I am in "mortal sin" if I miss a week or two a year for personal reasons that I have no obligation to explain. Sometimes "getting away for a weekend" means getting away from all other people, including the people at church. I pray, I read the Bible, etc. I have no problem substituting that for corporate worship every once in a while... Not habitually, certainly, but every once in a while. I don't like the idea that church attendance on Sunday is encouraged through the use of eternal damnation as the motivator.

By the way, I am an RCIA Candidate (currently attending).... so I'm not a troll, this is a genuine problem/concern I have.

Thank you,

Michael

 

[Dream]

I also find it hard to believe that somebody who attends mass every week but misses a Holy Day of Obligation has commited a mortal sin, but it's clearly defined in the Catechism.

I think that it's dangerous to say "well other people don't attend mass regularly so why is it wrong for me to skip every once in a while?" God does not grade people on a curve.

 

[kimber1]

southcoast believe me, i feel your struggle and at times feel the same way myself (another RCIAer )
if i'm not mistaken i've been told that the obligation doesn't "hold" for us quite yet as we aren't fully "in" the Church. does that make sense?

i mean even when we are though i see your point although we should strive to go always. i mean, iot's an hour a week. Jesus gave His life so what is an hour to us? although don't get me wrong, i struggle with it as well sometimes.

 

[TexasCatholic]

southcoast believe me, i feel your struggle and at times feel the same way myself (another RCIAer )
if i'm not mistaken i've been told that the obligation doesn't "hold" for us quite yet as we aren't fully "in" the Church. does that make sense?

i mean even when we are though i see your point although we should strive to go always. i mean, iot's an hour a week. Jesus gave His life so what is an hour to us? although don't get me wrong, i struggle with it as well sometimes.

It's an hour a week on a specific day, and within a specific timeframe as provided by a local parish/church. My personal opinion is that Sunday is an arbitrary day decided upon for worship (I have a B.A. in History, so I like reading on history, and IMO, the day we know as Easter was not a Sunday... Sunday was an arbitrarily determined day for worship).

In other words, the fact that it's in the Catechism isn't good enough. I need the history and doctrinal basis...

Also, is this Dogma or ?

I also was not suggesting that my actions should be judged comparatively with others. I'm just saying I am/will be a regular attender... but every once in a while, I will miss. I am sorry to say, I don't think that's sinful.

Thanks,

-Michael

 

[kimber1]

honestly, i'm not sure if it's Dogma or what. personally i like attending Sat. evening MAss here. it still falls under the obligation but it's way more convenient for me with kids to do it then and i've noticed the families are more abundant that night than on Sunday morning.
i've missed lately to having the flu aand feel this guilt which i don't feel i should feel because well, God understands we get sick but then i get eat up with still it's a small price to pay compared to what He did for you and then the guilt trip in my mind works overtime.

that's not right.....

 

[Monica02]

My understanding is that missing Mass is only a sin if you do not have a good reason for missing. I miss Mass a few times a year due to ill health.

 

[Carrye]

Hi Michael,

First, missing Mass because you're on vacation and can't get to a parish, or if you're ill, or get stuck in traffic or something, you're not committing a mortal sin. There are extenuating circumstances that would negate your culpability, but simple neglect does not qualify.

My personal opinion is that Sunday is an arbitrary day decided upon for worship (I have a B.A. in History, so I like reading on history, and IMO, the day we know as Easter was not a Sunday... Sunday was an arbitrarily determined day for worship).

The Church's opinion is otherwise - it is part of Apostolic Tradition that Sunday was the day of the Resurrection (the first day of the week). And as you probably know, Catholics hold Scripture and Tradition together. And even if I would grant you that Easter was not on a Sunday, that doesn't change the reality - we collectively take one day out of the week to rest, and to gather together and give glory to God. It's not that each person can choose for his/herself which day that is. It's something we do together as the Body of Christ.

In other words, the fact that it's in the Catechism isn't good enough. I need the history and doctrinal basis...

You've already listed the doctrinal basis, and Christians have gathered together on Sundays beginning in the early Church. At the very beginning, as they were Jews, they observed both Saturday (the Sabbath) and Sunday (the Lord's Day). But as time progressed, Saturdays were less important, and Sundays increased.

St. Justin Martyr (c 150AD): "And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these noble things. Then we all stand up together and offer prayers. And, as said before, when we have finished the prayer, bread is brought, and wine and water, and the president similarly sends up prayers and thanksgivings to the best of his ability, and the congregation assents, saying the Amen; the distribution, and reception of the consecrated elements by each one takes place and they are sent to the absent by the deacons. Those who prosper, and who so wish, contribute, each one as much as he chooses to. What is collected is deposited with the president, and he takes care of orphans and widows, and those who are in want on account of sickness or any other cause, and those who are in bonds, and the strangers who are sojourners among us, and, briefly, he is the protector of all those in need. We all hold this common gathering on Sunday, since it is the first day, on which God transforming darkness and matter made the universe, and Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead on the same day. For they crucified him on the day before Saturday, and on the day after Saturday, he appeared to his apostles and disciples and taught them these things which I have passed on to you also for your serious consideration" (Apology I, 67).

Didache: "On every Lord's day—his special day—come together and break bread, and give thanks, first confessing your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure" (Didache, 14:1-2).

Pliny to Emperor Trajan (c. 112 AD): "[Christians] were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day [Sunday], before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, or adultery, never to falsify their work, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food, but food of an ordinary and innocent kind" (Pliny's Epistle, 10:96).

It was Luther who disdainfully disagreed: "If anywhere the day [Sunday] is made holy for the mere day's sake—if anywhere anyone sets up its observance on a Jewish foundation, then I order you to work on it, to ride on it, to dance on it, to feast on it, to do anything that shall remove this encroachment on Christian liberty" (Table Talk).

Also, is this Dogma or ?

Yes.

I'm just saying I am/will be a regular attender... but every once in a while, I will miss. I am sorry to say, I don't think that's sinful.

Here are the conditions for mortal sin:
1) Grave Matter - Missing Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation is gave matter
2) Full Knowledge - Do you know that missing Mass is "grave matter"?
3) Full Consent - Are you choosing to miss Mass even though you know 1 and 2?

If all three conditions are present, it is mortal sin whether or not one would like to believe it.

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

PART 2, SECTION 1 1, CHAPTER 2 2, ARTICLE 1, SUBSECTION 3, HEADING 2



The Lord's day

1166 "By a tradition handed down from the apostles which took its origin from the very day of Christ's Resurrection, the Church celebrates the Paschal mystery every seventh day, which day is appropriately called the Lord's Day or Sunday." 36 The day of Christ's Resurrection is both the first day of the week, the memorial of the first day of creation, and the "eighth day," on which Christ after his "rest" on the great sabbath inaugurates the "day that the Lord has made," the "day that knows no evening." 37 The Lord's Supper is its center, for there the whole community of the faithful encounters the risen Lord who invites them to his banquet: 38

The Lord's day, the day of Resurrection, the day of Christians, is our day. It is called the Lord's day because on it the Lord rose victorious to the Father. If pagans call it the "day of the sun," we willingly agree, for today the light of the world is raised, today is revealed the sun of justice with healing in his rays. 39​

1167 Sunday is the pre-eminent day for the liturgical assembly, when the faithful gather "to listen to the word of God and take part in the Eucharist, thus calling to mind the Passion, Resurrection, and glory of the Lord Jesus, and giving thanks to God who 'has begotten them again, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead' unto a living hope": 40

When we ponder, O Christ, the marvels accomplished on this day, the Sunday of your holy resurrection, we say: "Blessed is Sunday, for on it began creation . . . the world's salvation ... the renewal of the human race .... On Sunday heaven and earth rejoiced and the whole universe was filled with light. Blessed is Sunday, for on it were opened the gates of paradise so that Adam and all the exiles might enter it without fear. 41​

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Sacrosanctum concilium 106

By a tradition handed down from the apostles which took its origin from the very day of Christ's resurrection, the Church celebrates the paschal mystery every eighth day; with good reason this, then, bears the name of the Lord's day or Sunday. For on this day Christ's faithful are bound to come together into one place so that; by hearing the word of God and taking part in the eucharist, they may call to mind the passion, the resurrection and the glorification of the Lord Jesus, and may thank God who "has begotten them again, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto a living hope" (1 Pet. 1:3). Hence the Lord's day is the original feast day, and it should be proposed to the piety of the faithful and taught to them so that it may become in fact a day of joy and of freedom from work. Other celebrations, unless they be truly of greatest importance, shall not have precedence over the Sunday which is the foundation and kernel of the whole liturgical year.



----------------
38 Cf. Jn 21:12; Lk 24:30. CITED TEXT:



John 21:12

Jesus said to them, "Come and have breakfast." Now none of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord.

Luke 24:30 When he was at the table with them, he took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them.
------------
Part 2, Section 1, Chapter 2, Article 1, SubSection 3, Heading 5

1174 The mystery of Christ, his Incarnation and Passover, which we celebrate in the Eucharist especially at the Sunday assembly, permeates and transfigures the time of each day, through the celebration of the Liturgy of the Hours, "the divine office." 46 This celebration, faithful to the apostolic exhortations to "pray constantly," is "so devised that the whole course of the day and night is made holy by the praise of God." 47 In this "public prayer of the Church," 48 the faithful (clergy, religious, and lay people) exercise the royal priesthood of the baptized. Celebrated in "the form approved" by the Church, the Liturgy of the Hours "is truly the voice of the Bride herself addressed to her Bridegroom. It is the very prayer which Christ himself together with his Body addresses to the Father. 49

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

PART 2, SECTION 2 2, CHAPTER 1 1, ARTICLE 3, SUBSECTION 6, HEADING 1



"Take this and eat it, all of you": communion

1384 The Lord addresses an invitation to us, urging us to receive him in the sacrament of the Eucharist: "Truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you." 217


1385 To respond to this invitation we must prepare ourselves for so great and so holy a moment. St. Paul urges us to examine our conscience: "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself." 218 Anyone conscious of a grave sin must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion.

1386 Before so great a sacrament, the faithful can only echo humbly and with ardent faith the words of the Centurion: "Domine, non sum dignus ut intres sub tectum meum, sed tantum dic verbo, et sanabitur anima mea" ("Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul will be healed."). 219 And in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom the faithful pray in the same spirit:

O Son of God, bring me into communion today with your mystical supper. I shall not tell your enemies the secret, nor kiss you with Judas' kiss. But like the good thief I cry, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."​

1387 To prepare for worthy reception of this sacrament, the faithful should observe the fast required in their Church. 220 Bodily demeanor (gestures, clothing) ought to convey the respect, solemnity, and joy of this moment when Christ becomes our guest.

1388 It is in keeping with the very meaning of the Eucharist that the faithful, if they have the required dispositions, 221 receive communion when they participate in the Mass. 222 As the Second Vatican Council says: "That more perfect form of participation in the Mass whereby the faithful, after the priest's communion, receive the Lord's Body from the same sacrifice, is warmly recommended." 223

1389 The Church obliges the faithful to take part in the Divine Liturgy on Sundays and feast days and, prepared by the sacrament of Reconciliation, to receive the Eucharist at least once a year, if possible during the Easter season. 224 But the Church strongly encourages the faithful to receive the holy Eucharist on Sundays and feast days, or more often still, even daily. 1390 Since Christ is sacramentally present under each of the species, communion under the species of bread alone makes it possible to receive all the fruit of Eucharistic grace. For pastoral reasons this manner of receiving communion has been legitimately established as the most common form in the Latin rite. But "the sign of communion is more complete when given under both kinds, since in that form the sign of the Eucharistic meal appears more clearly." 225 This is the usual form of receiving communion in the Eastern rites

224 Cf. OE 15; CIC, can. 920.
CITED TEXT:



Orientalium ecclesiarum 15

The faithful are bound to take part on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy or, according to the regulations or custom of their own rite, in the celebration of the Divine Office.(17) That the faithful may be able more easily to fulfill their obligation, it is laid down that the period of time within which the precept should be observed extends from the Vespers of the vigil to the end of the Sunday or the feast day.(18) The faithful are earnestly exhorted to receive Holy Communion on these days, and indeed more frequently-yes, even daily.(19)

NOTES
17) Cfr. Syn. Laodicen., an. 347/381, can. 29; S. Nicephorus CP., cap. 14; Syn. Duinen. Armenorum, an. 719, can. 31; S. Theodorus Studita, sermo 21; S. Nicolaus I, Litt. Ad consulta vestra, 13 nov. 866: In quorum Apostolorum; Nos cupitis; Quod interrogatis; Praeterea consulitis; Si die Dominico; et Synodi particulares.
(18) Novum quid, saltem ubi viget obligatio audiendi S. Liturgiam; ceterum cohaeret diei liturgicae apud Orientales.
(19) Cfr. Canones Apostolorum, 8 et 9; Syn. Antiochena, an. 341, can. 2; Timotheus Alexandrinus, interrogat. 3; Innocentius III, Const. Quia divinae, 4 ian. 1215; et plurimae Synodi particulares Ecclesiarum Orientalium recentiores.

CIC Cation 920 § 1. All the faithful, after they have been initiated into the Most Holy Eucharist, are bound by the obligation of receiving Communion at least once a year.
§ 2. This precept must be fulfilled during the Easter season unless it is fulfilled for a just cause at some other time during the year.

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

So three questions to think about
1: Are then any other laws or rules out there you obey simpley because your requested to?
2: If you had the oppuntity to meet a star for one hour would you drop every thing else? The president or a king? How about our Lord himself?
3: Do you belive in the real presence?

 

[TexasCatholic]

So three questions to think about
1: Are then any other laws or rules out there you obey simpley because your requested to?

Honestly? No. I always want the back-end reason if it is not clearly evident from the request itself. However, I find this to be an irrelevant and inappropraite question. I am not asking to be attacked, I am expressing that I disagree with threat of eternal damnation as a motivator to go to church. If you have kids and/or are a teacher, you understand the concept of Positive Reinforcers. They are the only ones that are effective for real change of behavior.

2: If you had the oppuntity to meet a star for one hour would you drop every thing else? The president or a king? How about our Lord himself?

Also not an appropriate question... There is no analogy that is going to fit here. Since I believe the Lord is with me 24 hours a day, and that the function of Mass is worship, not to "find" his presence, your analog doesn't work for me here. Yes, I wish to worship the Lord... yes, I DO WORSHIP THE LORD... I am not pre-planning missing church. What I am saying is that there might be sometime in the future that I do if I, for instance, am taking a camping trip. I'm in the woods... for a weekend. If I spend half the weekend finding a nearby church (which likely only has ONE mass time if it's a small parish), I am not exactly getting a weekend off.

Some are telling me that traveling is a reasonable "excuse"... Others are saying that's not so.

3: Do you belive in the real presence?

I believe that through a mystery that only God understands (not the Church, not a priest, not a layman, not the pope), the elements are both bread & wine and the body & blood of Christ. Do I believe that Christ is present ONLY in the Eucharist? No. He's present with me right now. According to Holy Scripture, he is present any place that two people gather in his name.... with or without the Eucharistic elements.

-Michael

 

[Benedicta00]

Hi guys,

I am having a bit of a psychological and logistical issue with obligatory Sunday Mass attendance. The issue isn't that I don't wish to regulary attend church. I both intend to, and do. Though I am just doing my discovery of the Catholic Church, I have "regularly" attended church (either Catholic or Protestant) for quite sometime. However, "regular attendance" and "obligatory attendance" are two things I find mutually exclusive. I do not always find that it is reasonable to tell me that I have committed a "mortal sin" by not attending church on a particular week...

For instance, if I'm on a vacation. I sometimes attend church on vacation, but sometimes it is not feasible to do so. I do not feel I should have to be "pardoned" by a priest for not attending. The majority percentage of Catholics don't attend any church at all except major holidays. Technically, they are all committing numerous mortal sins according to the Church rules, right??

While I do not agree that they should only attend mass on holidays, I do not feel that I should feel I am in "mortal sin" if I miss a week or two a year for personal reasons that I have no obligation to explain. Sometimes "getting away for a weekend" means getting away from all other people, including the people at church. I pray, I read the Bible, etc. I have no problem substituting that for corporate worship every once in a while... Not habitually, certainly, but every once in a while. I don't like the idea that church attendance on Sunday is encouraged through the use of eternal damnation as the motivator.

By the way, I am an RCIA Candidate (currently attending).... so I'm not a troll, this is a genuine problem/concern I have.

Thank you,

Michael

God commanding is not a obligation in the way you think, he obligates us not in a legalistic way but for our own good in order that we have the graces we need to be saved. If we are to make it to heaven we have to be perfect as God is perfect and the way of perfection is through divine love as Paul says, “faith, hope, and love. The greatest of these is love” Why? Because “Love covers a multitude of sin.” It perfects us. If we did not have the Mass we couldn’t increases our love of God. That is why God demands we be there- because we can’t be saved with out. Our goal is to love Him with all our hearts minds etc. not just half our heats and face it- if you are not attending Mass you really don’t love him above all things. We are ‘obligated’ to the Mass so we can grow in perfect love. It is not legalism, it is for the good of our souls. If we don’t grow in the love of God we will eventually fall into sin and lose our salvation so God again demands this so we can be saved because he loves us perfectly.

If you have a problem with being commanded by God to do something or to not do something than you will have to take it up with him, not the Church. The Church is just doing what God has commanded her to do and that is teach truth.

 

[Michelina]

Southcoast,

The obligation to worship God communally, publicly and regularly derives from the Natural Law, over which the Church has no authority. It is the function of the Church to stipulate or specify the manner in which this obligation is to be fulfilled by Catholics. The specification of Sundays and a few other days is merely the minimal requirement of this obligation.

 

[Benedicta00]

It's an hour a week on a specific day, and within a specific timeframe as provided by a local parish/church. My personal opinion is that Sunday is an arbitrary day decided upon for worship (I have a B.A. in History, so I like reading on history, and IMO, the day we know as Easter was not a Sunday... Sunday was an arbitrarily determined day for worship).




In other words, the fact that it's in the Catechism isn't good enough. I need the history and doctrinal basis...

Also, is this Dogma or ?

I also was not suggesting that my actions should be judged comparatively with others. I'm just saying I am/will be a regular attender... but every once in a while, I will miss. I am sorry to say, I don't think that's sinful.

Thanks,

-Michael

No, it's not; it is the sacrifice of Calvary made present to us by way of nothing more than a miracle AND IT’S NOT DONE ON A CERTAIN DAY BUT EVERY DAY. You are not obligated to attended daily but once a week and it amazes me how so many still want to complain about that and they are supposed to be growing in perfect love of God.

The fact that Easter was/is not the same day in history means nothing because the Church ordained it this day and has the power to do so. So it is the day we celebrate because the Church says so. We actually celebrate Jesus resurrection everyday, not just once a year- so I don’t get your point, really, that you are making.

If you believe the Church belongs to Jesus and when she speaks- it's with his voice. Then if the Church says Mass celebrated on this day is a obligation then it is Christ saying this, not men.

Yes it is a doctrine of faith that Mass in a holy obligation for the good of our soul, not to just fulfil a obligation for it’s own sake. Plainly put, if you don't go to Mass, you may not be saved. I say many not be , not absolutly not be.

With that said- it is all about love, If you love God you should want to love him more and grow in love which increase our holiness. This is the purpose of Mass.

 

[Michelina]

Southcoast,

The Church has the authority to teach in God's name and to pastor in His name. Her authority comes from Him. God did not die on the cross to establish a family which He would then leave an orphan. The "Lone Ranger" approach to being a follower of Christ doesn't fit in with the Church He established. We are family.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Um South Coast-- the bread and the wine become Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ-- only the appearance of bread and wine are maintained. The Eucharist is no longer bread and wine AT ALL after the consecration.

Jesus is physically present at Mass- and in the Eucharist- in a substantial way. He actually resides within your body after you receive Him in Holy Communion. Yes Jesus is always with us-- but not in the same way that He is with us in the EUcharist.

When we take John 3:16 and we see how God so loved us-- we must see that at every Mass Jesus comes again to reside in limited humanity-under the distressing disguise of bread and wine-- in some ways this ongoing humility to reside within my broken human-ness is an even more profound gift of Supreme Love than the Incarnation. Love Itself unites with our souls and our bodies in a physical and substantial way for precious minutes at each Mass-- Love Itself waits for us to come to the tabernacle and fall on our faces and ask to be engulfed with His fire.

Yesterday I posted a story about the Holy FAther and his visit to Baltimore- where search dogs trained to seek out living beings in earthquake rubble-- began to howl and bark pointing at the tabernacle when they were securing a location the Pope wanted to visit unexpectedly-- they were barking at a Person-- not just a residing Spirit....

Just as God has always been with humanity- but not in the same way as He became present through the Incarnation.

 

[Michelina]

I believe that through a mystery that only God understands (not the Church, not a priest, not a layman, not the pope), the elements are both bread & wine and the body & blood of Christ.

That's consubstantiation, not transubstantiation.

Do I believe that Christ is present ONLY in the Eucharist? No. He's present with me right now. According to Holy Scripture, he is present any place that two people gather in his name.... with or without the Eucharistic elements.

There are different types of Presence, Southcoast. The Real Presence is unique to the Most Blesssed Sacrament.

 

[Benedicta00]

Michael,

Do you believe Jesus is sacramentally present, is that your concept of the Lord’s Supper?

 

[bigsierra]

Sunday isn't the only day that you can go on to fulfill "Sunday Obligation". You can also attend Saturday afternoon, which is the technically Sunday on the old calendar. Anyway, since I havn't had to work weekends, I've been doing some Sat. afternoons. Also, when I'm out of town, there is nothing more fun than going to Mass at a parish I know nothing about. It can be very different.

There have been Sundays that I've attended that I really didn't want to, but knew the obligation was there and those were the days I needed it most. I walked away thinking that I was happy the obligation was there. I think submission is all part of it also.

 

[artnalex]

South Coast,

As is the case with most non-Catholics (and many Catholics), your problem is with the authority of the Church. I'm not putting you down, just pointing it out to you. Once you have come to a better understanding of authority, it will allow you to better understand, believe and obey the doctrines/teachings of the Church.

As for Sunday obligations; what can we say to you? Although you state you are a history buff, that does not mean that you are educated in history germaine to the Catholic Church. As such, make a concerted effort to read the writings of the early church fathers. In those writings you will come to find that the doctrines that you may disagree with, in fact, originated from the Church's inception.

But the main issue here is obviously "authority". Good luck with it. Pray hard, pray fervently, and pray often. I'm sure you will do well.