A Pondering of the Peculiar

[juvenissun]

Lol. you want to change the meaning of words again. Too funny. You define God in such a way that you have to change the definitions of words IN THE DEFINITION of God. Hate to break it to you, but this is most CERTAINLY not logical.

But there's a problem, see, changing the meaning of the word omnipotent doesn't work, because God of the Bible didn't actually SAY omnipotent. He said he can do ALL things, is ALL powerful, things like that.

And funny enough, THAT definition of ALL is the same definition you argued for in the ALL/EVERY debate.

What are you talking about? Where do I want to change the meaning of any word?

And, you should talk to me with a little respect. It is I who am teaching you. Not the other way around. If you don't like it, we can simply quit.

 

[46AND2]

What are you talking about? Where do I want to change the meaning of any word?

And, you should talk to me with a little respect. It is I who am teaching you. Not the other way around. If you don't like it, we can simply quit.

Respect is earned, juve. Treat others with respect, and you'll get it in return. You hand out insults like candy. If you can't take it, don't give it.

I assumed you wanted to change the definition of omnipotent, since you didn't want to change the definition of God. In fact, I still suspect that is where you are headed...but by all means, please continue.

 

[46AND2]

What are you talking about? Where do I want to change the meaning of any word?

And, you should talk to me with a little respect. It is I who am teaching you. Not the other way around. If you don't like it, we can simply quit.

But that's ok, juve. I don't care if you treat me with respect or not, so I'll let you off the hook...

You want to add qualifiers (which aren't in the Bible)...something along the lines of God is omnipotent, except where it causes a logical contradiction...

But that makes him less than omnipotent. He is omnipotent (A) minus logical contradictions (B).

A-B=<A where B is a non-negative, non-zero entity

Whereas, a more parsimonious explanation is that God is lying in that it requires no imagined qualifiers, since no logical contradiction is created when a lying God says "I can do all things."

 

[PsychoSarah]

But that's ok, juve. I don't care if you treat me with respect or not, so I'll let you off the hook...

You want to add qualifiers (which aren't in the Bible)...something along the lines of God is omnipotent, except where it causes a logical contradiction...

But that makes him less than omnipotent. He is omnipotent (A) minus logical contradictions (B).

A-B=<A where B is a non-negative, non-zero entity

Whereas, a more parsimonious explanation is that God is lying in that it requires no imagined qualifiers, since no logical contradiction is created when a lying God says "I can do all things."

Which means, basically, that god cannot be both omnipotent and completely benevolent at the same time, because an omnipotent god is capable of evil, while a completely benevolent god is not.

 

[ExistenceUnknown]

But that's ok, juve. I don't care if you treat me with respect or not, so I'll let you off the hook...

You want to add qualifiers (which aren't in the Bible)...something along the lines of God is omnipotent, except where it causes a logical contradiction...

But that makes him less than omnipotent. He is omnipotent (A) minus logical contradictions (B).

A-B=<A where B is a non-negative, non-zero entity

Whereas, a more parsimonious explanation is that God is lying in that it requires no imagined qualifiers, since no logical contradiction is created when a lying God says "I can do all things."

For the sake of argument I'm going to say God doesn't lie. He left the evidence of creation all around us. My point in starting this thread wasn't about people committing atrocities in the bibles name or whether they were justified.

My point was that if the devil corrupted your bible how would you know? Maybe God doesn't agree with the worship of this book.

 

[PsychoSarah]

For the sake of argument I'm going to say God doesn't lie. He left the evidence of creation all around us. My point in starting this thread wasn't about people committing atrocities in the bibles name or whether they were justified.

My point was that if the devil corrupted your bible how would you know? Maybe God doesn't agree with the worship of this book.

How egotistical and pathetic would god have to be, to create an entire race that exists solely to worship him? That seems like something the prideful devil would want, not god.

 

[46AND2]

For the sake of argument I'm going to say God doesn't lie. He left the evidence of creation all around us. My point in starting this thread wasn't about people committing atrocities in the bibles name or whether they were justified.

My point was that if the devil corrupted your bible how would you know? Maybe God doesn't agree with the worship of this book.

I don't see that there is much difference who does the lying, God or Satan...the Bible also says it won't be corrupted. Does it really matter if Satan planted that comment, or God lied when he said it, or both?

 

[PsychoSarah]

I don't see that there is much difference who does the lying, God or Satan...the Bible also says it won't be corrupted. Does it really matter if Satan planted that comment, or God lied when he said it, or both?

If satan did it, then it ruins the credibility, even the holiness, of the bible. That would be a lot more damage than if it was god lying.

 

[46AND2]

If satan did it, then it ruins the credibility, even the holiness, of the bible. That would be a lot more damage than if it was god lying.

With respect to how we know if it's true or not? I don't think so.

Maybe for the consequences for humans that would do more damage, but strictly trying to determine truth would be just as difficult either way.

 

[PsychoSarah]

With respect to how we know if it's true or not? I don't think so.

Maybe for the consequences for humans that would do more damage, but strictly trying to determine truth would be just as difficult either way.

If it were god lying, one would have to wonder why. If it is the devil lying, then it is pretty obvious that the devil just generally like messing with people, so an explanation for it really isn't necessary.

 

[46AND2]

If it were god lying, one would have to wonder why.

Why do you think that? I think you just haven't contemplated the possibility before. But really, why is it out of the question? Why couldn't god be devious?

If it is the devil lying, then it is pretty obvious that the devil just generally like messing with people, so an explanation for it really isn't necessary.

Maybe satan doesn't exist, and god likes messing with people...

 

[PsychoSarah]

Why do you think that? I think you just haven't contemplated the possibility before. But really, why is it out of the question? Why couldn't god be devious?



Maybe satan doesn't exist, and god likes messing with people...

Possibly, but the theists will have a conniption fit over that.

 

[AV1611VET]

How egotistical and pathetic would god have to be, to create an entire race that exists solely to worship him?

History is full of atrocities of those who have demanded worship -- including those who worship themselves.

I'm thankful that God wants our worship, not Jim Jones, not alcohol, not ourselves, not an abductor -- but God.

In short, if we don't worship God, we'll worship something -- and the outcome won't be good.

 

[46AND2]

Possibly, but the theists will have a conniption fit over that.

It's the consequence of not having any evidence of his existence. We can't know if he is benevolent or devious. The Bible, if he wrote it, would read the same, either way.

 

[CabVet]

In short, if we don't worship God, we'll worship something

Speak for yourself.

 

[ExistenceUnknown]

I don't see that there is much difference who does the lying, God or Satan...the Bible also says it won't be corrupted. Does it really matter if Satan planted that comment, or God lied when he said it, or both?

This isn't a question meant for the non-believer. We can poke holes in the thought process all day long. But for someone who believes in a literal interpretation of the Bible, this can be more thought provoking.

AV and most will dismiss it without ever really giving the thought any merit. However, AV is an honest man and he will not shy away from saying that the only real answer is Faith.

The Bible has no defense when authorship is questioned. It can only use itself as justification.

“Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him” (Proverbs 30:5).

And if the word was not of God?... Well then the answer is simple. "I have Faith that it is." Belief without proof or evidence. The Blind leading the Blind.

You're all in the same boat as us - grasping at straws and waiting for death to reveal the truth.

 

[PsychoSarah]

This isn't a question meant for the non-believer. We can poke holes in the thought process all day long. But for someone who believes in a literal interpretation of the Bible, this can be more thought provoking.

AV and most will dismiss it without ever really giving the thought any merit. However, AV is an honest man and he will not shy away from saying that the only real answer is Faith.

The Bible has no defense when authorship is questioned. It can only use itself as justification.

“Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him” (Proverbs 30:5).

And if the word was not of God?... Well then the answer is simple. "I have Faith that it is." Belief without proof or evidence. The Blind leading the Blind.

You're all in the same boat as us - grasping at straws and waiting for death to reveal the truth.

Sure we are, we just are more depressed about it, because we don't feel that there is any guarantee of an afterlife at all. We all will die, we all will find out the truth. I hope for our sakes that when we get to our final destination, it doesn't turn out to be nonexistence. Listen to my words: I would rather burn for an eternity in the deepest pits if hell than not exist, but as far as I can tell, something vs nothing is a 50/50 chance. I don't know about you, but I don't like my own existence riding on the same chances as a coin flip, but not liking something won't make it go away.

 

[ExistenceUnknown]

Sure we are, we just are more depressed about it, because we don't feel that there is any guarantee of an afterlife at all. We all will die, we all will find out the truth. I hope for our sakes that when we get to our final destination, it doesn't turn out to be nonexistence. Listen to my words: I would rather burn for an eternity in the deepest pits if hell than not exist, but as far as I can tell, something vs nothing is a 50/50 chance. I don't know about you, but I don't like my own existence riding on the same chances as a coin flip, but not liking something won't make it go away.

Sarah, where were you before you were born?

I say that if death is the abyss then we won't even know it. The only thing you can do is fear the thought of it.

 

[juvenissun]

Respect is earned, juve. Treat others with respect, and you'll get it in return. You hand out insults like candy. If you can't take it, don't give it.

I assumed you wanted to change the definition of omnipotent, since you didn't want to change the definition of God. In fact, I still suspect that is where you are headed...but by all means, please continue.

If God is defined as being omnipotent, but we find something God can not do. If we do not want to change the definition of God, then what can be done?

Of course, we can review the nature of that thing which God can not do. If the thing violates the definition, then it is not the fault of God, Who is defined. But is the fault of that thing, which is "illegally" requested.

God(1) is omnipotent -- A definition. (1)
God(2) can not lie -- This is another definition. (2)

If god lied, then it violates the definition 2. Then this god is not God(2) any more.
But this does not violate the definition 1. So God(1) is still omnipotent.

In another case:

God is (defined as) omnipotent AND does not lie.

(God) lied. -- a discovery
So, this god is not the one defined, but is someone not defined. Otherwise, your discovery violates the definition. Also, the discovery of lying has nothing to do with the omnipotence in the definition.

As a result, "God can not lie, so God is not omnipotent" is an illegal statement.

--------

I did not criticize you wrongly. This IS lesson 1 in logic 101.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Sarah, where were you before you were born?

I say that if death is the abyss then we won't even know it. The only thing you can do is fear the thought of it.

Again, I didn't exist, or I was in my mom, depending on whether you me pre or post conception. Then again, who knows, people do not form reliable permanent memories until age 4, so maybe we had past lives or were in some kind of state and forgot the experience.