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A Pondering of the Peculiar (3)

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Davian

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Same for deities, then.

There is always another option: We don't know.
 
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BrotherRickG

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All you are saying is that you have more faith than I do. You bought into the lie and will go down with the ship. Not my problem.
 
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PsychoSarah

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All you are saying is that you have more faith than I do. You bought into the lie and will go down with the ship. Not my problem.

It isn't a matter of faith. We see the world, and as far as we can tell it doesn't show us a godly influence, especially not that of a benevolent one. We see much of the same stuff, but we interpret them differently. Chances are, no one is completely correct in their views of how the universe came to be, but that doesn't make all we know a lie.
 
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HitchSlap

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As for origins: IMO,

It's always existed.
It had a beginning.

We really don't know, but Dr. Krauss has done quite a bit of work to show that possibly it's always existed. Maybe one day we'll know, and hopefully while I'm alive.
 
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PsychoSarah

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As for origins: IMO,

It's always existed.
It had a beginning.

We really don't know, but Dr. Krauss has done quite a bit of work to show that possibly it's always existed. Maybe one day we'll know, and hopefully while I'm alive.

Maybe we will never know. The universe would be boring if there wasn't any mystery left. It would be like defeating a final boss in a video game: a brief sense of satisfaction, and then the realization that there is nothing left to do with it.
 
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BrotherRickG

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This is a small list but shows the growing number of what you guys would call "Smart People" that have always been or moved to Creation as the answer for the beginning of the universe. Or are they just misguided also?
Dr. E. Theo Agard, Medical Physics
Dr. Kevin Anderson, Microbiology - Biography
Mark Armitage, Biology - Biography
Alexander Arndt (analytical chemist, etc.)
Dr. Steve Austin, Geologist
Francis Bacon (developed the Scientific Method)
Dr. Geoff Barnard, Immunologist
Thomas G. Barnes (physicist)
Dr. John Baumgardner,
Electrical Engineering, Space Physicist, Geophysicist, expert in supercomputer modeling of plate tectonics​
Dr. Jerry Bergman, Psychologist
Edward A. Boudreaux, Theoretical Chemistry
Prof. Linn E. Carothers, Associate Professor of Statistics
Dr. Eugene F. Chaffin, Professor of Physics
Arthur V. Chadwick (geologist)
Dr. Donald Chittick, Physical Chemist
Dr. John M. Cimbala, Mechanical Engineering
Dr. Bob Compton, DVM
Melvin Alonzo Cook (physical chemist, Nobel Prize nominee)
Dr. Ken Cumming, Biologist
Dr. Jack W. Cuozzo, Dentist
Dr. William M. Curtis III, Th.D., Th.M., M.S., Aeronautics & Nuclear Physics
Dr. Raymond V. Damadian, M.D., Pioneer of magnetic resonance imaging
Dr. Nancy M. Darrall, Botany
Dr. Bryan Dawson, Mathematics
Prof. Stephen W. Deckard, Assistant Professor of Education
Dr. David A. DeWitt, Biology, Biochemistry, Neuroscience
Dr. Don DeYoung, Astronomy, atmospheric physics, M.Div
Dr. Geoff Downes, Creationist Plant Physiologist
Dr. Ted Driggers, Operations research
Robert H. Eckel, Medical Research
Dr. André Eggen, Geneticist
Prof. Dennis L. Englin, Professor of Geophysics
Prof. Danny Faulkner, Astronomy
Prof. Carl B. Fliermans, Professor of Biology
Prof. Dwain L. Ford, Organic Chemistry
Prof. Robert H. Franks, Associate Professor of Biology
Robert V. Gentry (physicist and chemist)
Dr. Paul Giem, Medical Research
Dr. Maciej Giertych, Geneticist
Dr. Duane Gish, Biochemist
Dr. Werner Gitt, Information Scientist
Dr. Warwick Glover, General Surgeon
Dr. D.B. Gower, Biochemistry
John Grebe (chemist)
Dr. George Hawke, Environmental Scientist
Dr. Margaret Helder, Science Editor, Botanist
Dr. Kelly Hollowell, Molecular and Cellular Pharmacologist
Dr. Ed Holroyd, III, Atmospheric Science
Dr. Bob Hosken, Biochemistry
Dr. George F. Howe, Botany
Dr. James A. Huggins, Professor and Chair, Department of Biology
D. Russell Humphreys (award-winning physicist)
Evan Jamieson, Hydrometallurgy
George T. Javor, Biochemistry
Dr. Arthur Jones, Biology
Dr. David Kaufman, Human Anatomy - Biography
John W. Klotz (geneticist and biologist)
Leonid Korochkin (geneticist)
Dr. John K.G. Kramer, Biochemistry
Lane P. Lester (geneticist and biologist)
Dr. Jason Lisle, Astrophysicist
Dr. Ian Macreadie, molecular biologist and microbiologist:
Dr. John Marcus, Molecular Biologist
Frank L. Marsh (biologist)
Dr. George Marshall, Eye Disease Researcher
Dr. Ralph Matthews, Radiation Chemist
Prof. Andy McIntosh, Combustion theory, aerodynamics
Dr. David Menton, Anatomist
Dr. Angela Meyer, Creationist Plant Physiologist
Dr. John Meyer, Physiologist
Colin W. Mitchell, Geography
Dr. Tommy Mitchell, Physician
Dr. John W. Moreland, Mechanical engineer and Dentist
Dr. Henry M. Morris (1918–2006), founder of the Institute for Creation Research.
Dr. Arlton C. Murray, Paleontologist
Dr. John D. Morris, Geologist
Dr. Terry Mortenson, History of Geology
Stanley A. Mumma, Architectural Engineering
Isaac Newton
(helped develop science of dynamics and the discipline of calculus / father of the Law of Gravity / invented the reflecting telescope) - Newton was a creationist by choice not because there was no alternative)​
Dr. Eric Norman, Biomedical researcher
Michael Oard, Atmospheric Science - Biography
Prof. Chris D. Osborne, Assistant Professor of Biology
Gary E. Parker (biologist and paleontologist)
Louis Pasteur
(helped develop science of bacteriology / discovered the Law of Biogenesis / invented fermentation control / developed vaccinations and immunizations)​
Dr. Georgia Purdom, Molecular Genetics
Dr. John Rankin, Cosmologist
Prof. J. Rendle-Short, Pediatrics
Dr. Ariel A. Roth, Biology
Dr. Joachim Scheven Palaeontologist:
Dr. Andrew Snelling, Geologist
Dr. Timothy G. Standish, Biology
Prof. James Stark, Assistant Professor of Science Education
Prof. Brian Stone, Engineer
Dr. Esther Su, Biochemistry
Dr. Stephen Taylor, Electrical Engineering
Charles B. Thaxton (chemist)
Dr. Ker C. Thomson, Geophysics
William Thompson (Lord Kelvin)
(helped develop sciences of thermodynamics and energetics / invented the Absolute Temperature Scale / developed the Trans-Atlantic Cable)​
Dr. Michael Todhunter, Forest Genetics
Dr. Royal Truman, Organic Chemist:
Leonardo da Vinci (helped develop science of hydraulics)
Dr. Larry Vardiman, Atmospheric Science
Prof. Walter Veith, Zoologist
Dr. Jeremy Walter, Mechanical Engineer
Dr. A.J. Monty White, Chemistry/Gas Kinetics
Dr. John Whitmore, Geologist/Paleontologist
A.E. Wilder-Smith (chemist and pharmacology expert)
Dr. Kurt Wise, Palaeontologist
Dr. Thomas (Tong Y.) Yi, Ph.D., Creationist Aerospace & Mechanical Engineering
Dr. Patrick Young, Chemist and Materials Scientist
Dr. Henry Zuill, Biology
 
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Loudmouth

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This is a small list but shows the growing number of what you guys would call "Smart People" that have always been or moved to Creation as the answer for the beginning of the universe. Or are they just misguided also?

If we showed you that they make up a tiny, tiny percentage of all scientists, and are dwarfed by the scientists and smart people who disagree with you, would you be convinced?
 
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PsychoSarah

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No one ever said all Christians or creationists were stupid. One person that was mentioned by someone else, gosh, can't remember the name, tried to look at the idea of the existence of a deity objectively and attempted to factor in all the variables about life and the universe that they could, and came up with about a 60% chance that there is at least one deity. Now of course this isn't specific about the nature of said deity, but I thought you might like it, BrotherRickG.
 
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Sayre

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Same for deities, then.

There is always another option: We don't know.

Yes, it seems p(deity|beginnings) is only marginally bigger than p(deity), the information about requiring a beginning adds little. But that isn't the point - the point is that none of those other solutions appear more parsimonious than the other.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Yes, it seems p(deity|beginnings) is only marginally bigger than p(deity), the information about requiring a beginning adds little. But that isn't the point - the point is that none of those other solutions appear more parsimonious than the other.

Is parsimonious a word that works there? It means frugal (mostly referring to money), sparing, or restrained. It doesn't seem to make much sense to put it there... am I missing a definition?
 
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Mr Clean

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The stars were not on fire immediately after the Big Bang. The hydrogen that formed the first stars had to coalesce together with sufficient mass to start the fusion process.

The stars are not at "rest". In relation to Earth just about everything is moving in a different direction. A lot of it is moving away from us. The Andromeda Galaxy is an example of something moving towards us.

The light we see from any object is the light that was there in the past and traveled here to where you can see it right now. Even the sunlight you see isn't "now", it left the Sun 8 minutes ago.

What you propose has no evidence to back it up.



There is no proof that there has to be a reason why life is on Earth. There is no proof that there has to be a reason the universe exists.
 
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PsychoSarah

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There is no proof that there has to be a reason why life is on Earth. There is no proof that there has to be a reason the universe exists.

I like to think that, if that is the case, then we can make our own reason for our existence, you know, forge our own path, so to speak.
 
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bhsmte

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I like to think that, if that is the case, then we can make our own reason for our existence, you know, forge our own path, so to speak.

When we define our own purpose, it tends to mean a little bit more, don't ya think?
 
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BrotherRickG

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The Creation does show itself, one just has to look. When you look into an electron microscope and watch the tail twisting motor protein found in eukaryotic cells, to the beauty of a redwood tree in its majestic form. Think about the complexity of the electrochemical transponders in the brain and how the body keeps it balanced throughout life. The decay we are seeing is man made like Monsanto, over using anti-biotics, the pushing away from God. The Chem-trails that are being spayed on a daily basis of Nano particles of aluminum, barium and strontium are cause the cancer rate, Alzheimers and other illnesses to skyrocket let alone the crops that cannot grow in the heavy metal soils we now have. The Creation is being destroyed by some science and I think everyone knows it but some are unwilling to speak up.
 
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Davian

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Firstly, I would like to say that I find your modifying of my post, to alter its intent, to be intellectually dishonest. Answer it, or ignore it, or concede the point.
Lets start over friend; First of all I am saying science is manipulating and using its power to corrupt the mind of man.
Why say it if you are unable substantiate it?

That is irrefutable and not my opinion alone. Many highly educated scientist say that.
If it is opinions, it is not irrefutable. Choose your words carefully. All you have is opinion.

Second, Science is and always has been build on unsubstantiated theories that with testing either get validated or proven wrong.
And theories get validated. They are what our world is built on, from modern medicine to the cell phone in your pocket.

I don't even know what you mean by this. Try citing a scientific paper that states the issue with more detail.

So you are not anti-evolution, but more anti-science.

I look to the track record that science has, which is pretty good.

What has religion produced, for the billions that goes into it each year?
As for me speaking to my Atheist and agnostic customer disrespectfully, I do not. We are grown ups and there is not an internet filter between us and life is good.
Do you not feel that courtesy should extend to those you meet on the internet?

I do apologize for lowering myself in the bantering, albeit kinda fun, and not sticking to my point.
It has its place; the mistake is in thinking that insults and the like will carry your arguments.

As for the type of Christian words I use and being preachy, you chose to put your ideas on a Christian forum. Now you want me to not use my belief structure in my argument against evolution and towards Creation.
No, I am saying that you belief structure, by itself, is not evidence for creation or against the theory of evolution. Sure, you beleive it. Others believe otherwise.

You will need to resort to facts, evidence, robust arguments, and the like.
As for blindly accepting man's answers for anything, I am cynical and tread lightly.
In your posts, you come across as dogmatic and evasive.

As we discussed earlier, man is corrupt whether claiming to be Christian or claiming to be a scientist. I am cautious to follow anyone without vetting them as much as possible.
So get on with vetting him. What's the problem with Dr. Collins? Is he not a Christian? Does he lack credentials? Experience?

Also: how many times has this lovely galaxy of ours rotated during its existence?
 
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PsychoSarah

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Hardly science, but the irresponsibility of humanity in using that technology. The damage we cause is not punishment by some deity but the consequence of our own actions directly.

I see all the same things you do, but I see not creation in them, but rather a precarious ecosystem and universe that only needs the slightest shove to fall into unlivable chaos. I see countless errors and inefficiencies in biology; natural flaws of nature rather than some mistake or change in a "perfect" design.

The only miracle I see is in that this wacky world of ours hasn't killed us off yet.
 
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Sayre

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Is parsimonious a word that works there? It means frugal (mostly referring to money), sparing, or restrained. It doesn't seem to make much sense to put it there... am I missing a definition?

Yes - parsimony makes sense in the context. There are simpler and more complicated models to explain beginnings. But you can only appeal to parsimony in the presence of equal explanatory power. Ockhams razor was only ever meant to choose between models of equal power, not between models of inequal power.
 
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