A Personal Relationship with Christ: Misconceptions and Problems

[JIMINZ]

This is the end of time not the start of a movement ... "He who is first is last and he who is last is first"

.
Just what are you saying, what does that mean?

 

[JIMINZ]

But how can we know whether we have been born again through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit?

.
A Believer having been Baptized can know of assurety, that he has been Regenerated unto Newness of Life through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Rom6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1Pet. 4:2
That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

All of these verses attest to the Regeneration of the Believer through Baptism, I do not need to question the validity of God's word, I only need to Believe it as Truth.

By the way, I don't proof Text, I post appropriate Verses to back up my beliefs,
I mostly let the Verses speak for themselves, so if you have an argument it isn't with me, but the Verses themselves because they Refute your espoused beliefs.

Paul told a specific grope of people to work out their Salvation with fear and trembling, only because he was not there with them, he told them he sent Timothy, but until then, it was on them to do it, he wouldn't be ther to lead them by the hand.

What you have done is Proof Texting to make your point without posting all of it.

Php 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

There are three parts to that Verse, which you conveniently didn't post, in order for the Verse to say what you wanted it to say.

 

[geetrue]

Actually "this" is:

Acts 2:
4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

Not at all an end times event.

.
Just what are you saying, what does that mean?

The book of Joel is pointing to an end times scenario that has not yet happen. St Peter merely quoted Joel thinking that they were in the end times due to the uniqueness of the gift of the Holy Spirit being upon them. Obviously none of that has come about as yet, but in due season it will. Read it again St Peter thought this was the times that Joel spoke of:

but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:

17‘AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,’ God says,
‘THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALLMANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;

18EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy.

19‘AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE
AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW,
BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.

20‘THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS
AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD,
BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.

21‘AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.’

 

[Wordkeeper]

The book of Joel is pointing to an end times scenario that has not yet happen. St Peter merely quoted Joel thinking that they were in the end times due to the uniqueness of the gift of the Holy Spirit being upon them. Obviously none of that has come about as yet, but in due season it will. Read it again St Peter thought this was the times that Joel spoke of:

but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:

17‘AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,’ God says,
‘THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALLMANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;

18EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy.

19‘AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE
AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW,
BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.

20‘THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS
AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD,
BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.

21‘AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.’

So Peter was wrong?

 

[JIMINZ]

This is the end of time not the start of a movement ... "He who is first is last and he who is last is first"

.
Just what are you saying, what does that mean, who are the last, who are the first?

 

[Wordkeeper]

So far, posters have in my view made at least 6 basic errors in their posting about the Holy Spirit and what it means to enjoy a personal relationship with Christ:

(1) a failure to recognize the significance of texts like Rom 8:9 in the biased selection of salvation prooftexts:

8:9 teaches that if you lack the Spirit, you are not a child of God. This means that no matter how many belief-based biblical texts you claim as grounds for salvation, you are deluded about your salvation, if you lack the Spirit. Faith is not enough "Even the devils believe and tremble (James 2:19)."

Romans 8:1-11
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.


Romans 8 commands us to set our minds on the spiritual, the moral life required by the Law, but not empowered by it, now enabled by the Holy Spirit. Seems like it is an intellectual, informed decision. Romans 8:9 rceognises the readers as those who have chosen moral living, IF the teachings of Christ is present in them.

(2) a failure to recognize the Spirit's sovereignty in the believer's experience of Him:

Reception of the Holy Spirit is not automatic upon profession of faith and cannot be divorced from our experience. Jesus compares the impartation of the Spirit to our experience of the wind: the coming and going of the wind is unpredictable, but its arrival is experiential, not just a belief, because we feel its force and hear its sound (John 3:8). The Spirit can be "grieved (Eph. 4:30) " and "extinguished (1 Thess. 5:19)," so that it is no longer present. The Holy Spirit does not jump just because we crack our whip. I shudder to contemplate how many people falsely infer from mere belief that they are true Christians.

Actually reception of the Holy Spirit is conditional on prayer:

Acts 19:5,6
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they beganspeaking with tongues and prophesying.

Luke 11:3
Give us each day our daily bread.

Well since the Holy Spirit is another advocate, like Christ, feeling force and hearing sound would be the same too, but John is talking about the characteristic of the BELIEVER!

John 3:8
8“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

As for grieving and extinguishing, disobedience can lead to the teaching of God being no longer intelligible. Faith is loyalty, not belief, although the wrong translation has been perpetuated because Christianity is not relevant to the life we lead everyday.

(3) a failure to grasp the meaning of biblical metaphors that imply the need for experiential or sensory confirmation of the Spirit's presence:

Jesus promise to "dine" with believers who invite Him in is obviously a metaphor for an experience of intimate nurturing fellowship with Christ's Spirit (Rev. 3:20; 1 Peter 2:3). Jesus' sensory metaphor of drinking in the Spirit also presumes sensory experience and not merely a doctrine. (See my elaboration of this point in (4) below.)

Rev 3:20-Context, context, context! Jesus is not talking to individuals here. He is speaking to the Church.

1 Peter 2:3- Actually, doctrine is in view here. See Hebrews 6:4,5 and other parallels. And drinking from the Rock is learning from God.

(4) a failure to distinguish larger context from the more relevant immediate context:

One poster dismisses my allusion to drinking in the Spirit in 1 Cor 12:13 on the grounds that the larger context deals with spiritual gifts. His objection can be refuted on 2 grounds:

(a) What is relevant is the immediate context, not the larger context, and the immediate context deals with spiritual baptism into the Body of Christ, an act that makes us a Christian. So its metaphor of drinking in the Spirit is dealing with the Spirit's role in our salvation, not His role in inspiring spiritual gifts.

All of which are preaching gifts, everything to be done for edification.

(b) More importantly, the poster ignores my supportive text (John 7:37-39, which has nothing to do with spiritual gifts. Here Jesus' drinking metaphor implies an experience of the Spirit in 2 ways: (a) the believers' spiritual thirst is quenched by the Spirit's arrival. (b) The Spirit's presence is confirmed by an inner upwelling of living water, a beautiful metaphor that implies a refreshing experience of the Spirit's flow.

The believer is enlightened. He then enlightens others, becoming a blessing to the world, so that what was promised to Abraham, to be blessings. would be fulfilled through the giving of the Spirit.

(5) a failure to grasp the significance of holy emotions--love, joy, peace-- that are fruit of the Spirit, not the result of human striving:

Paul repeatedly makes it clear that these emotions are richer than their equivalent ordinary emotions (1 Peter 1:7; Phil. 4:7). It may take a long time to grow enough to experience these emotions. But the point is that one's claim to have the Holy Spirit is seriously called into question if these holy emotions, fruit of the Spirit, are not experienced.

The fruits are received through enlightenment. The test is if we are living moral lives, if Jesusś words have remained in us:

2 Corinthians 13:1-9
1This is the third time I am coming to you. EVERY FACT IS TO BE CONFIRMED BY THE TESTIMONY OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES. 2I have previously said when present the second time, and though now absent I say in advance to those who have sinned in the past and to all the rest as well, that if I come again I will not spare anyone, 3since you are seeking for proof of the Christ who speaks in me, and who is not weak toward you, but mighty in you. 4For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you.

5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test? 6But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test. 7Now we pray to God that you do no wrong; not that we ourselves may appear approved, but that you may do what is right, even though we may appear unapproved. 8For we can do nothing against the truth, but only for the truth. 9For we rejoice when we ourselves are weak but you are strong; this we also pray for, that you be made complete. 10For this reason I am writing these things while absent, so that when present I need not use severity, in accordance with the authority which the Lord gave me for building up and not for tearing down.

To have sin is to fail the test.

(6) a failure to grasp the significance of the questions Paul poses to congregations about the Spirit:

"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers (Acts 19:2)?" What posters have overlooked is that Paul has not founded the church at Ephesus and does not know these people. So he is on a fact-finding mission. His question addresses the initial work of the Spirit, not a 2nd work after they have received the Spirit at their conversion. So Paul is asking whether the Ephesians have experienced the initial redemptive work of the Spirit, not whether they have spoken in tongues or prophesied.

In their focus on what I say about Acts 19:2, posters have ducked my reference to Paul's question to Corinthian believers in 2 Corinthians 13:5: "Test yourselves. Do you not recognize that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless, indeed, you fail to meet the test!" Paul uses the "Spirit of Christ" interchangeably with "the Holy Spirit." So he is asking them to introspect to determine whether they experience Christ's living Spirit within.

The Good News is that what has been promised to Abraham, to be blessings to the world, can now be fulfilled through the giving of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit enligtens, enabling us to be founts of living water.

(5) a failure to consider Paul's teaching about the inner witness of the Spirit (Rom 8:16;

When we get saved, we experience the Spirit in many ways, including in an inner witness that reassures and provides conviction: e. g.

"...It is that very Spirit that bears witness with our Spirit that we are God's children (Romans 8:16)."

"God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying "Abba! Father! (Gal. 4;6)!"

"Our message of the Gospel came to you not simply in words, but...in the Holy Spirit with full conviction (1 Thess. 1:5)."

The Spirit bears witness because we are no longer children of the devil, but of God: a moral change.

A true Christian develops a personal relationship with Christ and this relationship takes the form of experiencing Christ's Holy Spirit in the various ways I have discussed and will continue to discuss on this thread. Stay tuned for the best evidence of all for my case that possession of the Holy Spirit involves experience and not just doctrine accepted by faith.

The experience being enlightenment of how the requirements of the Law, whcih could not be met because of the weakness of the flessh, is now met through living according to the Spirit.

We are going to have a very interesting time going into Romans, as the Spirit enlightens us how we become blessings to the world.[/QUOTE]

 

[geetrue]

.
Just what are you saying, what does that mean, who are the last, who are the first?

The Jews ... St Luke wrote the book of Acts and said what St Peter said ... both were Jews and the first converts to Christianity, but they both were talking to other Jews. Joel was certainly talking to Jews when he prophesied by the power of the Holy Spirit with the prophesy to my people (the Jews). The Jews were the first of Gods chosen people and the Jews will be the last ones to believe. St Peter wasn't wrong he was just off by about 1980 years are so.

 

[Wordkeeper]

The Jews ... St Luke wrote the book of Acts and said what St Peter said ... both were Jews and the first converts to Christianity, but they both were talking to other Jews. Joel was certainly talking to Jews when he prophesied by the power of the Holy Spirit with the prophesy to my people (the Jews). The Jews were the first of Gods chosen people and the Jews will be the last ones to believe. St Peter wasn't wrong he was just off by about 1980 years are so.

So he was wrong by 1980 years?

 

[JIMINZ]

The Jews ... St Luke wrote the book of Acts and said what St Peter said ... both were Jews and the first converts to Christianity, but they both were talking to other Jews. Joel was certainly talking to Jews when he prophesied by the power of the Holy Spirit with the prophesy to my people (the Jews). The Jews were the first of Gods chosen people and the Jews will be the last ones to believe. St Peter wasn't wrong he was just off by about 1980 years are so.

.
No, Peter spoke what he was inspired to speak, when he needed to speak it.
You seem to forget that the authors of the Bible we Inspired by God to write the things they wrote, and they wrote to who the messages were for, some were for all believers of all time, while others were only for the people of that time, they were Time Specific.

Our job is to understand which ones are which.

It was that Generation upon who the ends of the world would come.

1 Cor. 10:11
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Not us

 

[Open Heart]

When I was a boy, I occasionally heard preachers thunder: "If you can't recall a time and a place. when you became a Christian, then you're not saved!" This claim disturbed me because I had godly parents and can't recall a time as a child when I did not embrace Christ as my Savior.

Yes, this is a serious drawback with Evangelicalism, which has as its basis an emotional experience of coming to Christ -- anyone who has not had one is "them" rather than "us."

 

[Wordkeeper]

The uneasy conscience of a non charismatic evangelical

By Doctor Daniel B. Wallace

Quote
I would pray for hours daily, praying that God would grant me the gift of tongues. When one of the "apostles" (apostle Bob, I believe3) at the Light House discovered that I had not spoken in tongues, he asked if I had been baptized in the Spirit. When I answered in the negative, he laid his hands on me and did the job right there. Observing that nothing had changed, he doubted my salvation.


The Uneasy Conscience of a Non-Charismatic Evangelical

 

[bling]

I held back and asked the one basic question because I wanted you to respond specifically to it. I didn't want to go off half cocked into opinions that did not relate to what you wrote.

To answer your question, the Scripture says, "This is the will of God, that we believe on Him whom He has sent." In response to the crowd on the Day of Pentecost who asked him how they could be saved, he replied, "If you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He rose from the dead, you shall be saved." Therefore believing on Christ activates the born again state. Now, the assurance of salvation may come right away, or it may come later. It took John Bunyan eight years to come to the place where he was assured of his salvation. He wrote about that in his book, "Grace abounding to the chief of sinners". Although he was saved as soon as he believed on Christ, it took him the eight years before he knew for sure that he was actually saved. The Scripture says, By grace are you saved through faith; it is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God."

There is a kind of peace that comes with the assurance of salvation. When we first embrace Christ, we are made at peace with God. That is a change of status which we may not "feel" at the time. We just trust God's Word that when we embrace Christ by faith, we are saved. But it may take time to experience the peace of God: "My peace I give to you, not as the world gives, etc." It is "the peace that passes all understanding" But this peace is not the evidence that we are saved. It is the result of being saved. The evidence that we are saved is God's promise in His word, "Come let us reason together; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow." "Repent ye therefore that your sins be blotted out."​

I don't agree with your interpretation of these verses. The context of 1 Corinthians 12 is that Paul starts the chapter by saying "With regard to spiritual gifts - etc." This means that he is talking about spiritual gifts and not a mystical union with Christ. Then he goes on to say:
"Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. ... For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink." Here he is speaking about there being only one baptism and one Holy Spirit, which means that every member of the body of Christ shares in the manifestation of the spiritual gifts. In the references to the Spirit in His conversation with the woman at the well, Jesus is speaking metaphorically to show how the Holy Spirit flows out of a person. We can relate this through the gifts and the fruit of the Spirit and, again, not through some mystical sensory connection with Christ.


I believe that this can happen when someone is filled with the Spirit for the first time, but we don't depend on that for our salvation and our on-going walk with God; otherwise when those feelings fade away, which they do, then a person depending on them can lose their assurance of salvation and start believing the devil when he says that they are not saved because they no longer have those feelings. As they seek further sensory feelings, the devil is there to give them some of his own to keep them in bondage to deception.



These are metaphors, not sensory images.


Context, context, context! Jesus is not talking to individuals here. He is speaking to the Church.


Metaphor to describe the act of faith in embracing Jesus as Saviour.


I am not against sensory experiences of the presence of God in general, but I get concerned when people become dependent on them, and that is when Satan can imitate and bring people into bondage to their senses and divert them away from their walk in faith. The Scripture does not say that the just shall live by the sensory experience of God, but that "the Just shall live by faith".



There is an inner witness of the Spirit, but it is not sensory or emotional. I spent years in the Pentecostal movement and seen it all. I found that most people who depended on sensory experiences ended up on the lunatic fringe instead of being stable, sound, productive church members.

You said: “In response to the crowd on the Day of Pentecost who asked him how they could be saved, he replied, "If you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He rose from the dead, you shall be saved."”

Peter did not say that on Pentecost but did say: Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You said: “In response to the crowd on the Day of Pentecost who asked him how they could be saved, he replied, "If you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He rose from the dead, you shall be saved."”

Peter did not say that on Pentecost but did say: Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

You are right. I get confused with another reference, which is just as true.
Interestingly, the other reference to Cornelius' household (10 years later) and Paul's encounter with the Ephesian disciples (20 years after the Day of Pentecost) when in the first, the household were baptised in the Name of Jesus, the Holy Spirit fell on them and they spoke in tongues and glorified God, and the same happened to the Ephesian disciples when they were re-baptised in the Name of Jesus. So when Peter said that after baptism in the Name of Jesus they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, that is how they received it, with tongues, prophecy, and praise and glory to God. So, according to those examples in Acts, that is how people receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This means that if someone says that they have received the gift of the Holy Spirit and don't experience those things, they cannot guarantee that they have actually received the gift.

 

[Wordkeeper]

You are right. I get confused with another reference, which is just as true.
Interestingly, the other reference to Cornelius' household (10 years later) and Paul's encounter with the Ephesian disciples (20 years after the Day of Pentecost) when in the first, the household were baptised in the Name of Jesus, the Holy Spirit fell on them and they spoke in tongues and glorified God, and the same happened to the Ephesian disciples when they were re-baptised in the Name of Jesus. So when Peter said that after baptism in the Name of Jesus they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, that is how they received it, with tongues, prophecy, and praise and glory to God. So, according to those examples in Acts, that is how people receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This means that if someone says that they have received the gift of the Holy Spirit and don't experience those things, they cannot guarantee that they have actually received the gift.

So is the Spirit giving special knowledge or emotional assurance?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So is the Spirit giving special knowledge or emotional assurance?

You may need to explain your question further. What do you think?

 

[Wordkeeper]

You may need to explain your question further. What do you think?

It says in Scripture that when Israel was baptised into Moses, she received special knowledge. You must understand that the Exodus event was a special event, a landmark, raising the possibility that Abraham's seed could be a blessing to the world. Scripture says that the special revelation did not benefit Israel and God swore that she would not enter rest, the promise would not be fulfilled. God's blessing must always be linked to the promise to Abraham. Else His plan is inconsistent, fragmented.

1 Corinthians 10:1-13
1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” 8Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. 13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

14Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.


Now, in another Passover, God's people have been baptised, this time, into Christ, a better testament. Will the drinking from the Rock be of benefit to us? Will we be edified like Joshua or will fear cause us to lose out, like Israel?

Assuming of course that enlightenment or emotional filling has happened. And if it has not happened we may need to ask, "Why not"?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It says in Scripture that when Israel was baptised into Moses, she received special knowledge. You must understand that the Exodus event was a special event, a landmark, raising the possibility that Abraham's seed could be a blessing to the world. Scripture says that the special revelation did not benefit Israel and God swore that she would not enter rest, the promise would not be fulfilled. God's blessing must always be linked to the promise to Abraham. Else His plan is inconsistent, fragmented.

1 Corinthians 10:1-13
1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” 8Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. 13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

14Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.


Now, in another Passover, God's people have been baptised, this time, into Christ, a better testament. Will the drinking from the Rock be of benefit to us? Will we be edified like Joshua or will fear cause us to lose out, like Israel?

Assuming of course that enlightenment or emotional filling has happened. And if it has not happened we may need to ask, "Why not"?

I don't see any connection with what I said in my post about converts repenting, being baptised, and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. I then went on to describe how converts first received the gift of the Holy Spirit. So what has that got to do with your question?

 

[Wordkeeper]

I don't see any connection with what I said in my post about converts repenting, being baptised, and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. I then went on to describe how converts first received the gift of the Holy Spirit. So what has that got to do with your question?

I think we agree that converts all receive the Holy Spirit when they are baptized with the Holy Spirit as opposed to those who are baptized with John's baptism (let's call that baptism with water, of repentance).

The question is if the Holy Spirit is given to assure, or to enlighten.

Assurance is comforting.

Enlightenment is empowering. You know you need God to go with you and you know He IS going with you when you hear His voice to go forth and gather...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think we agree that converts all receive the Holy Spirit when they are baptized with the Holy Spirit as opposed to those who are baptized with John's baptism (let's call that baptism with water, of repentance).

The question is if the Holy Spirit is given to assure, or to enlighten.

Assurance is comforting.

Enlightenment is empowering. You know God is with you when you hear His voice to gather...

I can start to see what you are getting at.
It is true that when we accept Christ, the Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit that that we are children of God. That is assurance. The Scripture says that the spirit of man is the lantern of the Lord. The Lord enlightens our spirit and we get the witness of it. When we need guidance we get a red, amber or green light in our spirit. This is the usual way that the Holy Spirit works with our spirit. This is because our spirit has been made alive to God, actually the Holy Spirit.

But when the Holy Spirit needs to speak a bit more loudly to us, He will speak directly in our hearts with definite words (not audible). This is more than just a red, amber or green light. It became a still small voice in our hearts.

The enlightening function of the Spirit comes through reading of Scripture, hearing a preacher, talking with a friend, circumstances and events.

Now these are all the infilling of the Spirit that comes along with conversion to Christ. But the gift of the Spirit is more. It is an enduement of power for service. In the examples in Acts, the infilling and enduement came at the same time. This is why some believe that the gift of the Spirit automatically comes at conversion. There is a difference with the Ephesus disciples. They were believers already through the ministry of Apollos before he was shown the Way more perfectly through Aquilla and Priscilla. So, they were believers in Christ already, but as soon as they were re-baptised in the Name of Jesus, the Holy Spirit fell on them. So there is credence for the enduement of power being a subsequent experience to conversion.

I think that what you are talking about is what Paul prayed for the Ephesians: "I pray to God, asking God, the glorious Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, to give you spiritual wisdom and insight so that you might grow in your knowledge of God" (Ephesians 1:17).

 

[Wordkeeper]

I can start to see what you are getting at.
It is true that when we accept Christ, the Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit that that we are children of God. That is assurance. The Scripture says that the spirit of man is the lantern of the Lord. The Lord enlightens our spirit and we get the witness of it. When we need guidance we get a red, amber or green light in our spirit. This is the usual way that the Holy Spirit works with our spirit. This is because our spirit has been made alive to God, actually the Holy Spirit.

But when the Holy Spirit needs to speak a bit more loudly to us, He will speak directly in our hearts with definite words (not audible). This is more than just a red, amber or green light. It became a still small voice in our hearts.

The enlightening function of the Spirit comes through reading of Scripture, hearing a preacher, talking with a friend, circumstances and events.

Now these are all the infilling of the Spirit that comes along with conversion to Christ. But the gift of the Spirit is more. It is an enduement of power for service. In the examples in Acts, the infilling and enduement came at the same time. This is why some believe that the gift of the Spirit automatically comes at conversion. There is a difference with the Ephesus disciples. They were believers already through the ministry of Apollos before he was shown the Way more perfectly through Aquilla and Priscilla. So, they were believers in Christ already, but as soon as they were re-baptised in the Name of Jesus, the Holy Spirit fell on them. So there is credence for the enduement of power being a subsequent experience to conversion.

I think that what you are talking about is what Paul prayed for the Ephesians: "I pray to God, asking God, the glorious Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, to give you spiritual wisdom and insight so that you might grow in your knowledge of God" (Ephesians 1:17).

Again, what I found helpful was the text which says Israel drank from the Rock.

From this I can conclude that baptism gives access to the Rock, which is beneficial.

However, not all benefited, so that although drinking from the Rock was the starting point in the journey to fulfilment, rest, being enabled to be blessings to the world, Israel could not follow through because of disbelief.

Didn't bread from heaven teach God was able and willing to help Israel be that blessing? The giving of the Spirit led to edifying enlightenment, because the text says the speaker of tongues is edified, but unless there is interpretation, those who hear him cannot be edified too.

I think the three instances you quote of the giving of the Spirit leading to speaking in tongues built up confidence in the converts to be blessings to the world through picking up their crosses, but in the cold light of each new day, belief, loyalty, faith must persist...