A Personal Relationship with Christ: Misconceptions and Problems

[Deadworm]

Before I retired as a Theology professor and UMC pastor, I read about a disturbing survey of evangelical megachurch pastors. On average, these pastors estimated that 1/3 of their regular church attenders were not true Christians. Now I prefer to let God be the Judge of what His minimal requirements for salvation are and who has adequately met them. But it id not enough to embrace Christ as Savior and Lord (citing e. g. Romans 10:9-10); no one is a true Christian without experiencing regeneration through the Holy Spirit (John 3:3, 5; Romans 8:9).

When I was a boy, I occasionally heard preachers thunder: "If you can't recall a time and a place. when you became a Christian, then you're not saved!" This claim disturbed me because I had godly parents and can't recall a time as a child when I did not embrace Christ as my Savior. But how can we know whether we have been born again through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit? As a boy, I had always been taught that a true Christian has a personal relationship with Christ. But this expression appears nowhere in Scripture and an intimate connection with God seems to elude many believers. Of what does a personal relationship with Christ consist and how can we know we have such an intimate relationship?

I fear that the modern church has dumbed down the experiential requirements of the Christian faith to make it palatable to a wider audience and to avoid the vagaries of mystical experience. I started this thread to spark discussion of the basic problem as I describe it above and of the elements of a personal relationship with Christ identified in these 3 theses:

(1) It is not enough to say that God speaks to you through the Scriptures. If you must admit that you have never experienced God mystically communicating with you, then you have not satisfied the basic conditions of the Gospel. You must also experience the inner witness of the Spirit that you are indeed God's child

(2) It is not enough for you to regularly confess your sins and gratefully embrace God's grace. You must also be able to point to identifiable signs of supernatural power and spiritual transformation and growth. Among other things, this means you have identified and exercised your spiritual gifts and displayed the fruit of the Spirit.

(3) It is not enough to profess faith in the Gospel and to try to live the Christian life as best you can. You must also memorably experience God's presence through your emotions and senses.

No one cares about your unjustified beliefs on these issues. So please offer rationales and experiences that inform your perspectives.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Before I retired as a Theology professor and UMC pastor, I read about a disturbing survey of evangelical megachurch pastors. On average, these pastors estimated that 1/3 of their regular church attenders were not true Christians. Now I prefer to let God be the Judge of what His minimal requirements for salvation are and who has adequately met them. But it id not enough to embrace Christ as Savior and Lord (citing e. g. Romans 10:9-10); no one is a true Christian without experiencing regeneration through the Holy Spirit (John 3:3, 5; Romans 8:9).

When I was a boy, I occasionally heard preachers thunder: "If you can't recall a time and a place. when you became a Christian, then you're not saved!" This claim disturbed me because I had godly parents and can't recall a time as a child when I did not embrace Christ as my Savior. But how can we know whether we have been born again through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit? As a boy, I had always been taught that a true Christian has a personal relationship with Christ. But this expression appears nowhere in Scripture and an intimate connection with God seems to elude many believers. Of what does a personal relationship with Christ consist and how can we know we have such an intimate relationship?

I fear that the modern church has dumbed down the experiential requirements of the Christian faith to make it palatable to a wider audience and to avoid the vagaries of mystical experience. I started this thread to spark discussion of the basic problem as I describe it above and of the elements of a personal relationship with Christ identified in these 3 theses:

(1) It is not enough to say that God speaks to you through the Scriptures. If you must admit that you have never experienced God mystically communicating with you, then you have not satisfied the basic conditions of the Gospel. You must also experience the inner witness of the Spirit that you are indeed God's child

(2) It is not enough for you to regularly confess your sins and gratefully embrace God's grace. You must also be able to point to identifiable signs of supernatural power and spiritual transformation and growth. Among other things, this means you have identified and exercised your spiritual gifts and displayed the fruit of the Spirit.

(3) It is not enough to profess faith in the Gospel and to try to live the Christian life as best you can. You must also memorably experience God's presence through your emotions and senses.

No one cares about your unjustified beliefs on these issues. So please offer rationales and experiences that inform your perspectives.

I may be wrong but it seems to me that you are requiring sensory proof that a person is truly born again. Before I comment further, I will await your response. My view is that if we put our dependence on sensory experiences rather than the promises in God's Word then the devil is always around to give us the sensory experiences we desire to divert our faith.

Or...(after reading your post again), are you outlining the views of some mega-church teachers? You can see by my Pentecostal background that I know all about sensory experiences and have seen it all. So I am interested in your response and to see where we go to from there.

 

[HereIStand]

I'm in agreement with @Oscarr. People have different personalities and may experience the Christian life in different ways. Experience can be deeply meaningful, but it's also subjective.

 

[Serving Zion]

Before I retired as a Theology professor and UMC pastor, I read about a disturbing survey of evangelical megachurch pastors. On average, these pastors estimated that 1/3 of their regular church attenders were not true Christians. Now I prefer to let God be the Judge of what His minimal requirements for salvation are and who has adequately met them. But it id not enough to embrace Christ as Savior and Lord (citing e. g. Romans 10:9-10); no one is a true Christian without experiencing regeneration through the Holy Spirit (John 3:3, 5; Romans 8:9).

When I was a boy, I occasionally heard preachers thunder: "If you can't recall a time and a place. when you became a Christian, then you're not saved!" This claim disturbed me because I had godly parents and can't recall a time as a child when I did not embrace Christ as my Savior. But how can we know whether we have been born again through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit? As a boy, I had always been taught that a true Christian has a personal relationship with Christ. But this expression appears nowhere in Scripture and an intimate connection with God seems to elude many believers. Of what does a personal relationship with Christ consist and how can we know we have such an intimate relationship?

I fear that the modern church has dumbed down the experiential requirements of the Christian faith to make it palatable to a wider audience and to avoid the vagaries of mystical experience. I started this thread to spark discussion of the basic problem as I describe it above and of the elements of a personal relationship with Christ identified in these 3 theses:

(1) It is not enough to say that God speaks to you through the Scriptures. If you must admit that you have never experienced God mystically communicating with you, then you have not satisfied the basic conditions of the Gospel. You must also experience the inner witness of the Spirit that you are indeed God's child

(2) It is not enough for you to regularly confess your sins and gratefully embrace God's grace. You must also be able to point to identifiable signs of supernatural power and spiritual transformation and growth. Among other things, this means you have identified and exercised your spiritual gifts and displayed the fruit of the Spirit.

(3) It is not enough to profess faith in the Gospel and to try to live the Christian life as best you can. You must also memorably experience God's presence through your emotions and senses.

No one cares about your unjustified beliefs on these issues. So please offer rationales and experiences that inform your perspectives.

The ones you are targeting in this would really be saying "I confess that Jesus Christ will be Lord" - not that it has already become their reality. They do not know the difference, because they have been subjected to a common culture of this error.

 

[Wordkeeper]

I'm in agreement with @Oscarr. People have different personalities and may experience the Christian life in different ways. Experience can be deeply meaningful, but it's also subjective.

True Dat.

 

[JIMINZ]

I find it odd that you have so easily forgotten about or discounted the Tares.

Mat. 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Should the Church be blamed because 33 1/3% of it's Parishioners are not Christians, and the reason for this is based upon the fact it is a MEGA-Church? .......I would venture to say, you would find the same 33 1/3% in any sized Church, be it 100 or 10,000.

It isn't the fault of the Megachurch per se.

Now concerning someones Salvation, I can only turn to Scripture for a determination of who is actually Born Again.

Mar. 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Rom. 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

So then, those who profess their Belief, then act upon that professed Belief by being Baptized, are therefore Born Again Believers, the Regeneration having taken place.

I heard something very interisting concerning Billy Graham in the 1980s, where he said he believed that only about 2 % of all the people who had ever come forward in his Crusades would actually be Christian.

But then again.

Mat. 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

If you must admit that you have never experienced God mystically communicating with you, then you have not satisfied the basic conditions of the Gospel.

I can only attempt to communicate to God through prayer. The mystical communication from God to man is beyond my power. I cannot make him do it. No degree of effort or will can make it happen. You put a burden on a man that he cannot find, let alone carry.

You must also be able to point to identifiable signs of supernatural power and spiritual transformation and growth. Among other things, this means you have identified and exercised your spiritual gifts and displayed the fruit of the Spirit.

And if I can't? Being unable to find or identify my spiritual gifts is bad enough. Your encouraging pat on the back bodes ill with that knife in your hand. I can reform myself by sheer will, but I cannot transform myself by the power of the Holy Spirit. God can change me, but I cannot use God to change me. You require of a man that which he cannot accomplish.

You must also memorably experience God's presence through your emotions and senses.

You insist that a man give birth. If I do not have it, then I do not have it. I cannot obtain it by any power of my own. I wonder how many Christians have despaired in their efforts to arrive at a "personal relationship with Christ?" I wonder how many have lost hope for lack of sensory feedback? God reserves special blessings for those who have not seen yet still believe.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I hope you don't mind me putting by tuppence in here, but you have made some good point which I want to add my comments to.

I can only attempt to communicate to God through prayer. The mystical communication from God to man is beyond my power. I cannot make him do it. No degree of effort or will can make it happen. You put a burden on a man that he cannot find, let alone carry.

Prayer is our contact with God at any time. We are assisted by the indwelling Holy Spirit, but He is a Spirit who lives in our spirit. This is well below our emotions and senses. God communicates with us Spirit to spirit and we get an insight, which is not a sensory experience. When God made his self real to me many years ago, it wasn't in my senses. It was more of a realisation deep within me that God is now real and present. I felt released in myself to talk to God from son to Father and to Jesus as my best Friend. I can feel as cold as a fish yet know that God is here right beside me.

And if I can't? Being unable to find or identify my spiritual gifts is bad enough. Your encouraging pat on the back bodes ill with that knife in your hand. I can reform myself by sheer will, but I cannot transform myself by the power of the Holy Spirit. God can change me, but I cannot use God to change me. You require of a man that which he cannot accomplish.

I realised that 90% of my life is going to consist in normal, every day routine. It's a bit like an airline pilot - 95% boredom and 10 seconds of blind panic. There are highs and lows in the Christian life, but these are relatively rare. But God sticks with us through the normal routines of life, family, work, eating and sleeping. We can't make it any different. Even a full-time preacher experiences the same routine. Many burn out because they expect more fulfillment and excitement because they are working full time for the Lord, but once the "honeymoon" period is over and the normal routine kicks in, they can't handle it. We are changed into the mind and likeness of Christ line by line and precept by precept. It happens so gradually that we do not see the change day by day, but when we look back over a longer period of time, we see how we have changed from what we used to be. God changing us from glory to glory is like eating an elephant - one bite at a time.

You insist that a man give birth. If I do not have it, then I do not have it. I cannot obtain it by any power of my own. I wonder how many Christians have despaired in their efforts to arrive at a "personal relationship with Christ?" I wonder how many have lost hope for lack of sensory feedback? God reserves special blessings for those who have not seen yet still believe.

Nicodemus asked the Lord, "How can a man enter back into his mother's womb and be born again?" My question is, did we facilitate our own physical birth, or was it my mother with the assistance of the doctor? So when we are born again, do we facilitate it ourselves or is it the Holy Spirit who births us? We take some steps of faith like, "I know I am a sinner without hope, but I believe that Jesus died for me, so I receive Him as my Saviour. Then the Holy Spirit births us so that we are born of God, then He comes and fills us. We accept that by faith, believing the Scripture, "To as many as received Him, He gave them the right to be called children of God."

 

[Monksailor]

Deadworm, You say,"As a boy, I had always been taught that a true Christian has a personal relationship with Christ. But this expression appears nowhere in Scripture..."

I put forward that one of the first things we learn, esp. if we grow up in the church as it sounds you did, is that Jesus is the "Good Shepherd" and we believers are His sheep. We are taught how tenderly and totally the shepherd devotes himself to the needs of his sheep and is around them/communing with them all the time. We learn that sheep are not very smart and in constant need of the shepherd to guide them, protect them from predators, and save them from themselves. We learn that His relationship with His sheep is very personal: Isaiah 40:11; John 10:11; Matthew 18:12. Then there is: Matthew 12:50; Ephesians 2:19; Hebrews 2:11.

I content that the above 2nd // clearly qualifies as many "expression(s)" that Christians have a personal relationship with Christ.

I will continue as there is much more I will say but time precludes it being done now.

Thank you for your graciousness.

 

[Deadworm]

HereIStand: "I'm in agreement with @Oscarr. People have different personalities and may experience the Christian life in different ways. Experience can be deeply meaningful, but it's also subjective."

Your comment illustrates the reason why my OP makes this comment:
"I fear that the modern church has dumbed down the experiential requirements of the Christian faith to make it palatable to a wider audience and to avoid the vagaries of mystical experience. "

The subjectivity of mystical experience in no way annuls the biblical requirement for the indwelling Holy Spirit to be signified by sensory experience and holy emotion. Paul asks the Ephesian beleivers: "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers (Acts 19:2)?" Paul is asking about a spiritual experience and his question seems odd to believers who just assume they have the Spirit when they profess their faith in Christ. Similarly, Paul challenges to examine not their doctrines, but their experience of the indwelling Christ: "Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail to meet the test (2 Corinthians 13:5)!"

How can you know that the Spirit dwells in you, so that you are saved?
"All who are led by the Spirit are children of God (Romans 8:14)." But being led or guided by the Spirit is an experience that must be identifiable. Evidence of this experience comes in the form of "the fruit of the Spirit," 3 of which are the holy emotions, love, joy, and peace (Galatians 5:22-23). These are fruit of the Holy Spirit, not simply the product of human striving. In the context, these fruit are manifestations of what it means to "walk in the Spirit" and be "led by the Spirit (5:16, 18)."

But these "fruit" emotions can't be reduced to inner warm fuzzies on the grounds that we all have different personalities. Though subjective and ineffable, these holy emotions are uniquely rich in their confirmation of the Spirit's presence: e. g.

"Tell what God you need and thank Him for what He has done. If you do this, you will experience God's peace, which is far more wonderful than the human mind can understand (Philippians 4:6-7)."
"Even now you are happy with a glorious inexpressible joy (1 Peter 1:8)."​

Oscarr: "I may be wrong but it seems to me that you are requiring sensory proof that a person is truly born again."

Oscarr: "My view is that if we put our dependence on sensory experiences rather than the promises in God's Word then the devil is always around to give us the sensory experiences we desire to divert our faith."

You ignore this question in my OP: "But how can we know whether we have been born again through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit?" You forget that God's Word promises special sensory experiences and holy emotions that let us know that the Holy Spirit has truly taken up residence in us.

Jesus and Paul equate receiving the Holy Spirit with the act of drinking in the Holy Spirit and thus being refreshed by the mystical experience of quenching your spiritual thirst:

"We were all made to drink one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13)."
Jesus: "If you are thirsty, come to me! If you believe, come and drink!...Rivers of living water (= the Holy Spirit) will flow out from within (John 7:37-39)."

When I received the Spirit as a teen, I described it to my family as being engulfed by wave after wave of liquid love. Only decades later did I discover that spiritual giants like Charles Finney and D. L. Moody used precisely such imagery to describe their experience of the Spirit. Paul has such experiences in mind when he says:
"God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us (Romans 5:5)."

The NT also uses the sensory image of tasting and feasting to describe the tender intimacy of the experience of receiving the Holy Spirit:

Christ: "Listen! I am standing at the door, knocking; If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come into you and dine with you, and you with me (Revelation 3:20)."
"Cry out for this nourishment as a baby cries out for milk, now that you have tasted the Lord's kindness (1 Peter 2:2-3)."

The holy emotions and sensory experience I have described are for Paul normative for what it means to possess the Holy Spirit. Yes, it is necessarily subjective experience which Satan can imitate. But if we dumb down the experience of the Spirit to standard evangelical expectations, then it becomes far easier for Satan to give us just enough spirituality to inoculate us against the real thing.

But I have not yet discussed the other essential experiential elements of possessing the Spirit that I discuss in the OP's first 2 theses about the inner witness of the Spirit and the experience of power and transformation that the Holy Spirit brings. I will take up those 2 theses in future posts.

 

[Deadworm]

Jiminz: "I find it odd that you have so easily forgotten about or discounted the Tares."

You need to read more carefully: I expressed my disagreement with the megachurch pastors' verdict that roughly 1/3 of their congregations are unsaved. I let God be the Judge of who is and is not saved. Since the Spirit's work is essential to salvation, my thread is focusing on the biblical criteria for discerning the Spirit's operation. Posters on this thread seem to imagine they can ignore the biblical teaching about the Spirit that I'm presenting and discussing and mistakenly rely on a doctrine-based faith that sees no need to come to grips with the Spirit.


Jiminz: "Now concerning someones Salvation, I can only turn to Scripture for a determination of who is actually Born Again."

No, you can consult the whole counsel of God and grapple with the texts on the work of the Spirit that I quote and discuss without which your myopic prooftexting is meaningless.

Non: "I can only attempt to communicate to God through prayer. The mystical communication from God to man is beyond my power. I cannot make him do it. No degree of effort or will can make it happen. You put a burden on a man that he cannot find, let alone carry."

You have put words in my mouth. If you read my post carefully, you would notice my stress on the truth that the fruit of the Spirit are not the product of human striving. But the Bible remains the norm for the distinction between true and false spirituality and I have quoted and discussed how God's Word actually describes the experience of possessing the Holy Spirit. So reread my posts and actually engage what the Bible teaches about the Spirit's work.

Non: "And if I can't? Being unable to find or identify my spiritual gifts is bad enough. Your encouraging pat on the back bodes ill with that knife in your hand...I cannot transform myself by the power of the Holy Spirit."

God says, "If you seek me with all your heart, I will let you find me, says the Lord (Jeremiah 29:13);" and my thread is intended to explain what it means to find God by receiving His Holy Spirit. What you are ducking is the need for biblical criteria for discerning how one can know whether the Holy Spirit dwells within you. I'm afraid doctrine-based faith is not enough; the distinction between genuine and counterfeit faith apparently eludes you and you need to consult the biblical teaching about the Spirit to learn the difference. What I'm discussing is all grace-based; it is all God's work, but we need to know what to expect and how to discern the real thing. Please reread my posts and respond to the Scriptures discussed there.

Non: "I wonder how many Christians have despaired in their efforts to arrive at a "personal relationship with Christ?"

Righteous despair can produce a spiritual hunger, a godly longing that prompts God to impart the holy emotions and sensory confirmation that the Spirit now dwells within.
You seem to want to settle for a cheap and easy grace. That widespread attitude helps explain why God ignores our pleas for another Great Awakening. Do you long for a relationship with Christ fervently enough to investigate what the Bible actually promises about holy emotions and sensory confirmation of the Spirit's presence--and the other criteria for discerning the Spirit's work that I have yet to discuss here?

Non: "I wonder how many have lost hope for lack of sensory feedback?"

No doubt many, because a living vibrant relationship with Christ takes a disciplined and passionate spiritual quest. They settle for a shallow contentment because they don't care enough to heed Paul's plea: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12)." I endured years of a "dark night of the soul" and crippling doubt before I learned how to surrender to the Holy Spirit and thus experience the riches of His grace, the experience of the Spirit that this thread discusses.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You ignore this question in my OP: "But how can we know whether we have been born again through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit?" You forget that God's Word promises special sensory experiences and holy emotions that let us know that the Holy Spirit has truly taken up residence in us.​

I held back and asked the one basic question because I wanted you to respond specifically to it. I didn't want to go off half cocked into opinions that did not relate to what you wrote.

To answer your question, the Scripture says, "This is the will of God, that we believe on Him whom He has sent." In response to the crowd on the Day of Pentecost who asked him how they could be saved, he replied, "If you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He rose from the dead, you shall be saved." Therefore believing on Christ activates the born again state. Now, the assurance of salvation may come right away, or it may come later. It took John Bunyan eight years to come to the place where he was assured of his salvation. He wrote about that in his book, "Grace abounding to the chief of sinners". Although he was saved as soon as he believed on Christ, it took him the eight years before he knew for sure that he was actually saved. The Scripture says, By grace are you saved through faith; it is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God."

There is a kind of peace that comes with the assurance of salvation. When we first embrace Christ, we are made at peace with God. That is a change of status which we may not "feel" at the time. We just trust God's Word that when we embrace Christ by faith, we are saved. But it may take time to experience the peace of God: "My peace I give to you, not as the world gives, etc." It is "the peace that passes all understanding" But this peace is not the evidence that we are saved. It is the result of being saved. The evidence that we are saved is God's promise in His word, "Come let us reason together; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow." "Repent ye therefore that your sins be blotted out."​

Jesus and Paul equate receiving the Holy Spirit with the act of drinking in the Holy Spirit and thus being refreshed by the mystical experience of quenching your spiritual thirst:
"We were all made to drink one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13)."
Jesus: "If you are thirsty, come to me! If you believe, come and drink!...Rivers of living water (= the Holy Spirit) will flow out from within (John 7:37-39)."

I don't agree with your interpretation of these verses. The context of 1 Corinthians 12 is that Paul starts the chapter by saying "With regard to spiritual gifts - etc." This means that he is talking about spiritual gifts and not a mystical union with Christ. Then he goes on to say:
"Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. ... For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink." Here he is speaking about there being only one baptism and one Holy Spirit, which means that every member of the body of Christ shares in the manifestation of the spiritual gifts. In the references to the Spirit in His conversation with the woman at the well, Jesus is speaking metaphorically to show how the Holy Spirit flows out of a person. We can relate this through the gifts and the fruit of the Spirit and, again, not through some mystical sensory connection with Christ.

When I received the Spirit as a teen, I described it to my family as being engulfed by wave after wave of liquid love. Only decades later did I discover that spiritual giants like Charles Finney and D. L. Moody used precisely such imagery to describe their experience of the Spirit. Paul has such experiences in mind when he says:
"God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us (Romans 5:5)."

I believe that this can happen when someone is filled with the Spirit for the first time, but we don't depend on that for our salvation and our on-going walk with God; otherwise when those feelings fade away, which they do, then a person depending on them can lose their assurance of salvation and start believing the devil when he says that they are not saved because they no longer have those feelings. As they seek further sensory feelings, the devil is there to give them some of his own to keep them in bondage to deception.

The NT also uses the sensory image of tasting and feasting to describe the tender intimacy of the experience of receiving the Holy Spirit:

These are metaphors, not sensory images.

Christ: "Listen! I am standing at the door, knocking; If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come into you and dine with you, and you with me (Revelation 3:20)."

Context, context, context! Jesus is not talking to individuals here. He is speaking to the Church.

"Cry out for this nourishment as a baby cries out for milk, now that you have tasted the Lord's kindness (1 Peter 2:2-3)."

Metaphor to describe the act of faith in embracing Jesus as Saviour.

The holy emotions and sensory experience I have described are for Paul normative for what it means to possess the Holy Spirit. Yes, it is necessarily subjective experience which Satan can imitate. But if we dumb down the experience of the Spirit to standard evangelical expectations, then it becomes far easier for Satan to give us just enough spirituality to inoculate us against the real thing.

I am not against sensory experiences of the presence of God in general, but I get concerned when people become dependent on them, and that is when Satan can imitate and bring people into bondage to their senses and divert them away from their walk in faith. The Scripture does not say that the just shall live by the sensory experience of God, but that "the Just shall live by faith".

But I have not yet discussed the other essential experiential elements of possessing the Spirit that I discuss in the OP's first 2 theses about the inner witness of the Spirit and the experience of power and transformation that the Holy Spirit brings. I will take up those 2 theses in future posts.

There is an inner witness of the Spirit, but it is not sensory or emotional. I spent years in the Pentecostal movement and seen it all. I found that most people who depended on sensory experiences ended up on the lunatic fringe instead of being stable, sound, productive church members.

 

[JIMINZ]

Paul is asking about a spiritual experience and his question seems odd to believers who just assume they have the Spirit when they profess their faith in Christ.

.
Act 19:2
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

These believers had never heard of the Holy Spirit, therefore your statement below is invalid, having begun with a false premise.

The subjectivity of mystical experience in no way annuls the biblical requirement for the indwelling Holy Spirit to be signified by sensory experience and holy emotion.

 

[JIMINZ]

Jiminz: "I find it odd that you have so easily forgotten about or discounted the Tares."

You need to read more carefully: I expressed my disagreement with the megachurch pastors' verdict that roughly 1/3 of their congregations are unsaved. I let God be the Judge of who is and is not saved. Since the Spirit's work is essential to salvation, my thread is focusing on the biblical criteria for discerning the Spirit's operation. Posters on this thread seem to imagine they can ignore the biblical teaching about the Spirit that I'm presenting and discussing and mistakenly rely on a doctrine-based faith that sees no need to come to grips with the Spirit.


Jiminz: "Now concerning someones Salvation, I can only turn to Scripture for a determination of who is actually Born Again."

No, you can consult the whole counsel of God and grapple with the texts on the work of the Spirit that I quote and discuss without which your myopic prooftexting is meaningless.

Non: "I can only attempt to communicate to God through prayer. The mystical communication from God to man is beyond my power. I cannot make him do it. No degree of effort or will can make it happen. You put a burden on a man that he cannot find, let alone carry."

You have put words in my mouth. If you read my post carefully, you would notice my stress on the truth that the fruit of the Spirit are not the product of human striving. But the Bible remains the norm for the distinction between true and false spirituality and I have quoted and discussed how God's Word actually describes the experience of possessing the Holy Spirit. So reread my posts and actually engage what the Bible teaches about the Spirit's work.

Non: "And if I can't? Being unable to find or identify my spiritual gifts is bad enough. Your encouraging pat on the back bodes ill with that knife in your hand...I cannot transform myself by the power of the Holy Spirit."

God says, "If you seek me with all your heart, I will let you find me, says the Lord (Jeremiah 29:13);" and my thread is intended to explain what it means to find God by receiving His Holy Spirit. What you are ducking is the need for biblical criteria for discerning how one can know whether the Holy Spirit dwells within you. I'm afraid doctrine-based faith is not enough; the distinction between genuine and counterfeit faith apparently eludes you and you need to consult the biblical teaching about the Spirit to learn the difference. What I'm discussing is all grace-based; it is all God's work, but we need to know what to expect and how to discern the real thing. Please reread my posts and respond to the Scriptures discussed there.

Non: "I wonder how many Christians have despaired in their efforts to arrive at a "personal relationship with Christ?"

Righteous despair can produce a spiritual hunger, a godly longing that prompts God to impart the holy emotions and sensory confirmation that the Spirit now dwells within.
You seem to want to settle for a cheap and easy grace. That widespread attitude helps explain why God ignores our pleas for another Great Awakening. Do you long for a relationship with Christ fervently enough to investigate what the Bible actually promises about holy emotions and sensory confirmation of the Spirit's presence--and the other criteria for discerning the Spirit's work that I have yet to discuss here?

Non: "I wonder how many have lost hope for lack of sensory feedback?"

No doubt many, because a living vibrant relationship with Christ takes a disciplined and passionate spiritual quest. They settle for a shallow contentment because they don't care enough to heed Paul's plea: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12)." I endured years of a "dark night of the soul" and crippling doubt before I learned how to surrender to the Holy Spirit and thus experience the riches of His grace, the experience of the Spirit that this thread discusses.

.
I find your just complicating a very simple process which was devised by God Himself, into the workings of Salvation with regard to the Holy Spirit, into a how do we know were Saved Theology.

It's as simple as Jesus said,...... if you do this, then this will happen.

Mar. 16:16
He that believeth, and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

It all comes down to Faith.

As far as the evidence of the Holy Spirit, sure we should exhibit the Fruits of the Holy Spirit.

Gal 5:22,23
22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

But these following, are also the Fruits of the Spirit, our having been "before Ordained unto good works, these are the workings of the Holy Spirit in the Believer.

Eph. 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

These same Ordained Works, James speaks of, are also an evidence of the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Born Again Believer.

Jas. 2:18,
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas. 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[ViaCrucis]

(1) It is not enough to say that God speaks to you through the Scriptures. If you must admit that you have never experienced God mystically communicating with you, then you have not satisfied the basic conditions of the Gospel. You must also experience the inner witness of the Spirit that you are indeed God's child

(2) It is not enough for you to regularly confess your sins and gratefully embrace God's grace. You must also be able to point to identifiable signs of supernatural power and spiritual transformation and growth. Among other things, this means you have identified and exercised your spiritual gifts and displayed the fruit of the Spirit.

(3) It is not enough to profess faith in the Gospel and to try to live the Christian life as best you can. You must also memorably experience God's presence through your emotions and senses.

Those three points amount to false gospel and anathema.

1) The life-giving word of God, His precious Gospel, which is the power of God to salvation and which creates faith isn't enough. But something more is needed.

2) The promise of forgiveness in the Gospel, that on Christ's account--having died once and for all for our sins--isn't enough, so that we can freely confess our sins before God trusting that "He is faithful to forgive us our sins". But something more is needed.

3) The grace of God and the gift of faith which freely justifies us and imputes the righteousness of Jesus to us isn't enough. But something more is needed.

The Apostle has this to say, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:8)

So if I had to sum up those three points with one word, it would be anathema.

If those three points are provided as the definition of having a "personal relationship with God", then to put it quite simply I'm not interested. I will cling to Jesus instead, the author and finisher of our faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JIMINZ]

But how can we know whether we have been born again through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit?

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A Believer having been Baptized can know of assurety, that he has been Regenerated unto Newness of Life through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Rom6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1Pet. 4:2
That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

All of these verses attest to the Regeneration of the Believer through Baptism, I do not need to question the validity of God's word, I only need to Believe it as Truth.

By the way, I don't proof Text, I post appropriate Verses to back up my beliefs,
I mostly let the Verses speak for themselves, so if you have an argument it isn't with me, but the Verses themselves because they Refute your espoused beliefs.

Paul told a specific grope of people to work out their Salvation with fear and trembling, only because he was not there with them, he told them he sent Timothy, but until then, it was on them to do it, he wouldn't be ther to lead them by the hand.

What you have done is Proof Texting to make your point without posting all of it.

Php 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

There are three parts to that Verse, which you conveniently didn't post, in order for the Verse to say what you wanted it to say.

 

[Serving Zion]

It's also important to remember that the bible by itself isn't The Word of God, it is ink on paper. Without the spirit, it has no life in the words. The words have life because of the spirit they are written/translated/taught and read. There is a counterfeit spirit according to 1 John 4:1, so not every person who handles scripture has the spirit of God, thus their use of the bible is not to speak Word of God - they use the bible to speak toward the devil's purposes.

I mean to say this as to point one, whereby if someone is not receiving a divine message from God when they read the scripture, then they are not hearing the Word of God. It might be only an academic pursuit in that case (think of secular, unbelieving scholars).

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

What you are ducking is the need for biblical criteria for discerning how one can know whether the Holy Spirit dwells within you.

I'm not ducking anything. You began each statement with, "It is not enough...." It's not a wholly debatable premise, and I am no cessationist by any stretch, but what you point out is a deficiency in a person that the person has no power to correct. God is not a force that he is to be wielded. If it is not enough, then I am without hope, for I can do nothing.

You seem to want to settle for a cheap and easy grace.

You seem to want to settle for cheap and easy reading. I never said anything of the sort. I spent nine long years following after a doctrine of your sort, and they were the worst years of my life. I was told to catch a rainbow. Make a man sad by telling him that he needs to have what he cannot find. Make him despair by telling him that he must have it. That is your message. I reject it wholly.

I was told that I must find El Dorado. I was pointed down the street that they said led there. I went down that street. It wasn't there. Now, they insult me for not finding it.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Theologically I agree that:

1. a truly saved believer is permanently indwelt by God the Holy Spirit at the salvation event and during the sanctification process. We are individually snowflake members in the Body of Christ !

John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

INDWELLING.

The INDWELLING of God the Holy Spirit... permanently communing with the Spirit of Saved Believers...SANCTIFICATION!

1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of (God) the Holy Spirit
who is IN you,
whom you have FROM God, and that you are not your own?

2 Corinthians 6:16B
For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
“I will dwell in them and walk among them;
And I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

I WILL DWELL...Greek 1774...enoikeo...II.metaphor: to dwell in one and influence him (for good)

James 4:5
Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose:
“He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us”?

He has made to dwell...Greek 6052...katoikizo...establish, give a dwelling to

Romans 8:9,11
However, you are not in the flesh but IN the Spirit,
if indeed the "Spirit of God" dwells in you.
But if anyone does not have the "Spirit of Christ", he does not belong to Him...
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you,
He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies
through His Spirit who dwells in you.

dwells in...Greek 3611...oikeo en...to cohabit: dwell

1 Thessalonians 5: 12-19 (NASB) Paul: CONDUCT for Christ-followers...
...Rejoice always;
pray without ceasing;
in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.
Do not QUENCH (God) the (Holy) Spirit; ....(who is the indwelling "paraclete" communing with your Spirit)
>>>i.e.....Don't throw a "wet blanket" on the "fire" of your Counselor...<<<

1 Corinthians 2: 6-16 (NIV1984)...Wisdom From the Spirit
In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the "Spirit of God." (God the Holy Spirit)
We have not received the spirit of the world (anti-christs) but the Spirit who is FROM God,
that we may understand what God has freely given us.This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom
but in words taught by (God) the (Holy) Spirit,
expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

Jude 1:19
19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

Luke 24:49
49 "Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; (Spirit of Truth) but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high." (at Pentecost)

2 Timothy 1:14
Guard, through (God) the Holy Spirit who dwells in us,
the treasure which has been entrusted to you.

James 4:5
Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose:
“He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us”?

Romans 8:1[ Free from Indwelling Sin ]
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are IN Christ Jesus,
who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

John 14:2
In My Father’s house are many dwelling places;(LOTS OF ROOM IN HEAVEN!)
if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

Psalm 23:6
Surely goodness and lovingkindness will follow me all the days of my life,
And I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Theologically I agree that:

#2uring the sanctification process of the truly saved believer, there will be spiritual changes and increase in maturity. These may include:
A. exercise of spiritual gifts
B. display the fruit of the Spirit.

Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Ephesians 4:23
and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,

Spiritual Gifts:

1 Corinthians 14:12
So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to abound for the edification of the "church".(Body of Christ)

1 Cor. 12...The Spiritual Gifts: Have some ceased?
8 For to one is given
the word of wisdom through the Spirit,
and to another
the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9 to another
faith by the same Spirit, and
to another
gifts of healing
by the one Spirit, 10 and to another
the effecting of miracles, and to another
prophecy, and to another the
distinguishing of spirits, to another
various kinds of tongues, and to another the
interpretation of tongues...
27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.
28 And God has appointed in the "church" (Body of Christ(,
first apostles,
second prophets,
third teachers,
then miracles,
then gifts of healings,
helps,
administrations,
various kinds of tongues.

Fruit of the Spirit.

Galatians 5 (NASB)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is
love,
joy,
peace,
patience,
kindness,
goodness,
faithfulness,
23 gentleness,
self-control;

against such things there is no law.

24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified "the flesh" with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Romans 5:15
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.