a peg in a sure place

[ricker]

According to Christ's Object Lessons,218, we are now living in the time of "added probation" during which the second and final call to the church is to be proclaimed. The 1888 message of the offer to receive the righteousness of Christ through faith in His merits is to be proclaimed one more time in demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit.

Do you know how silly things like this sound to a Christian outsider? Where does the Bible speak of probation at all, much less an "added" one? I don't find the word anywhere in the Bible with a word search.

 

[Castaway57]

Not until the second call of that parable has been definitely rejected by the Advent people and the bearers of the message character assassinated will the message go to the world in a loud cry fashion. (The first call came in 1888 and was rejected as predicted in the parable)

sky

You must have lost your Bible again - you have grossly abused the intent of Ellen White's writings.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

Please show where I have spoken wrongly.

sky

 

[Castaway57]

Do you know how silly things like this sound to a Christian outsider? Where does the Bible speak of probation at all, much less an "added" one? I don't find the word anywhere in the Bible with a word search.

This is the kind of misunderstandings that are portrayed by those who have no idea what they are talking about, and who use the writings of our church in ways the authors of said writings have asked us not to do; and who absolutely do not represent official Adventist teachings. They see themselves as correctors of the church, and of others. And they have a pointless, confusing message.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

"'I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it.' Even if all our leading men should refuse light and truth, that door will still remain open. The Lord will raise up men who will give the people the message for this time." T.M.107.

Obviously some here have not done their homework and for that reason they are not qualified to teach. If they were studying at the feet of Jesus, they would know and understand the history of the Advent movement. They would know that in 1901 the Lord said, "We may have to remain here in this world because of insubordination many more years, as did the children of Israel.." Evangelism.696.

They would also know that six years later, the Lord also said,

"The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If this is allowed to continue, your faith will soon become extinct." T.M.481.

"Men have taken unfair advantage of those whom they suppose to be under their jurisdiction. They are determined to bring the individuals to their terms. They would rule or ruin. There will be no material change until a decided movement is made to bring in a different order of things." T.M.360.

On page 362 of the same book, bottom of the page, we read that the Lord said that our leaders were following in the track of Romanism. Read it for yourself.

On the same page, we read, "The spirit of domination is extending to the presidents of our conferences". On the next page, we read, "Rule, rule, has been their course of action."

Hence, "The high-handed power that has been developed as though position has made men gods makes me afraid and ought to cause fear. It is a curse wherever and by whomsoever it is exercised. This lording it over God's heritage will create such a disgust of man's jurisdiction that a state of insubordination will result... At the time of the first advent of Christ to our world, the men who composed the Sanhedrin exercised their authority in controlling men according to their will. Thus the souls whom Christ had given His life to free from the bondage of Satan were brought under bondage to him in another form." T.M.360.

Then on page 365, we read, "Humanity is hailed as God.

This has been the order of things in our church for more than a century and no decided movement has been made to bring in a different order of things.

Therefore, "Unless those who can help in are aroused to a sense of their duty, they will not recognize the work of God when the loud cry of the third angel shall be heard. When light goes forth to lighten the earth, INSTEAD OF COMING UP TO THE HELP OF THE LORD, THEY WILL WANT TO BIND ABOUT HIS WORK TO MEET THEIR NARROW IDEAS. Let me tell you that the Lord will work in this last work in a manner very much OUT OF THE COMMON ORDER OF THINGS and in a way that will be CONTRARY TO ANY HUMAN PLANNING. There will be those among us who will always want to control the work of God, to dictate even what movements shall be made when the work goes forward under the direction of the angel who joins the third angel in the message to be given to the world. God will use ways and means by which it will be seen that that He is taking the reins in His own hands. The workers will be surprised by the simple means that He will use to bring about and perfect His work of righteousness." T.M.300.

Now these statements make it crystal clear that the history of the past will be rehearsed as we enter upon the closing scenes.

So, please, we cannot teach the people unless we have a thorough understanding of the history of our movement.

There is much more to say but this will suffice for now.

sky

 

[Castaway57]

I have never seen anyone take Ellen White's writings so out of context as you have just done. Atleast in this post, you admit that you have a beef with the Church, as I have been saying all along. The Church can do nothing right in your eyes; and you do not represent official Adventist teachings - thankfully. No matter what you say; there is always hope for the Church. No one needs to listen to your negative message of doom and damnation.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

Words are cheap.

The message of these statements which I have quoted is clear and distinct and I have made no attempt at putting any construction upon these statements. They speak for themselves. They interpret each other. (1 S.M.42)

Their message is clear and unequivocal:

"You have been bought with a price. Do not become the slaves of men." 1 Cor.7:23.

"Now it has been Satan's purpose to eclipse the view of Jesus and lead men to look to man, and trust to man, and be educated to expect help from man. For years the church has been looking to man and expecting much from man, but not looking to Jesus in whom our hopes of eternal life are centered... Many had lost sight of Jesus and they needed to have their eyes directed to His divine Person, to His MERITS, and to His changeless love for the human family." Testimonies to Ministers,93,92.

It is still the same today. Nothing has changed.

God calls for a decided change one more time, one last time.

We must sink the shaff deeper into the mine of truth, otherwise we shall not be able to discern our right from our left, spiritually speaking.

Some are talking about negativity. Some posts are nothing but negative, especially against anything that does not agree with personal opinions or preconceived ideas. Instead of taking the time to carefully weigh matters, some do nothing but criticize and make personal attacks.

They also have made it clear that "they would rule or ruin." (T.M.360)

These have come to set themselves as "kings and rulers."

This is described in the Testimonies as "the spirit of domination." T.M.362

I will let the readers decide for themselves.

sky

 

[Castaway57]

Words are cheap.

These have come to set themselves as "kings and rulers."

This is described in the Testimonies as "the spirit of domination." T.M.362

I will let the readers decide for themselves.

sky

One of the funniest things about your religious tirades here is this thing you have in your head about me "taking over," here at the forum. Wow. What is it that you are so afraid of that I am taking control of? Incase you have not noticed, there is not a lot of activity here, hasn't been for some time; and you might want to consider just how your posts have been affecting that.

You have simply recited in this last post the same set of excuses and accusations which many before you have used when questioned about their mis-use of Ellen White's writings. Seems there will always be someone who wants to turn inspiration against the church, and against anyone who questions them.

basically, what I hear you saying, in more than one post now, is that you have considered yourself some sort of king or ruler here in the Traditional Adventist Forum, and that I have somehow threatened that, and that this offends you. That alone is proof of what I am saying. You are building on the sinking sand of other people's faults and the church's errors, and you have the longest list of sins by the church and by me of anyone else on the forum. calling that a personal attack, and questioning the depth of my spiritual discernment does nothing to disprove anything I have said about the mis-use of Ellen White's writings, or of official Adventist beliefs.

I have informed you of some of the things which Ellen White says about mis-use of the testimonies, and you continue to defy the very authority you quote. That does need to be questioned. You are not, by a long shot, an authority on her writings. So quit pretending to be.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

Speaking of Nicodemus, we read,

"Here was a man in a high position of trust, a man who was looked up to as one educated in Jewish customs, one whose mind was stored with wisdom. He was indeed in possession of talents of no ordinary character. He would not go to Jesus by day, for this would make him a subject of remark. It would be too humiliating for a ruler of the Jews to acknowledge himself in sympathy with the despised Nazarene. Nicodemus thinks, I will ascertain for myself the mission and claim of this Teacher, whether He is indeed the light to lighten the Gentiles, and the Glory of Israel...

Jesus said to him, "You must be born again."

"The lesson to Nicodemus I present as HIGHLY APPLICABLE to those who are today in responsible positions... The words of Christ are spoken just as verily to presidents of conferences, elders of churches, and those occupying official positions in our institutions...

"Jesus virtually says to Nicodemus: It is not CONTROVERSY that will help your case; it is not ARGUMENTS that will bring light to the soul. You must have a NEW HEART, or you cannot discern the kingdom of Heaven. It is not GREATER EVIDENCE that will bring you into a right position, but NEW PURPOSES, NEW SPRINGS OF ACTION. You must be born again. Until this change takes place, making all things new, the stronger evidences that could be presented would be useless. The want is in your heart; everything must be changed, or you cannot see the kingdom of God."

"If you have the Holy Spirit molding and fashioning your heart daily, then, you will have divine insight to perceive the character of the kingdom of God. Nicodemus received the lesson of Christ and became a true believer. His voice was heard in the Sanhedrin council in opposition to their measures for compassing the death of Christ. 'Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him?' The scornful answer was returned, 'Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look; for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.'" Testimonies to Ministers,367-369.

sky

 

[Castaway57]

"The lesson to Nicodemus I present as HIGHLY APPLICABLE to those who are today in responsible positions... The words of Christ are spoken just as verily to presidents of conferences, elders of churches, and those occupying official positions in our institutions...

sky

Again; you destroy the meaning and the importance of the testimonies with your puffed up quote-whipping theology. You mis-use the testimonies to take a stab at church leadership, without due consideration of what Ellen White means. certainly; she was not singling out Church leadership; for she has also said regarding the same text that all people have a chance to learn the lesson of Nicodemus - it is not just directed at church leadership as you intimate.

Another quote says it better than I can. It shows how you defy the instructions of Ellen White, regarding the Bible:

Nicodemus received the lesson of Christ and became a true believer. His voice was heard in the Sanhedrin council in opposition to their measures for compassing the death of Christ. "Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him?" he said. The scornful answer was returned: "Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet." {TM 369.3}

Jesus had a disciple in Nicodemus. In that night conference with Jesus the convicted man stood before the Saviour under the softening, subduing influence of truth which was shining into the chambers of his mind and impressing his heart. Jesus said: "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Jesus not only tells Nicodemus that he must have a new heart in order to see the kingdom of heaven, but tells him how to obtain a new heart. He reads the inquiring mind of a true seeker after truth, and presents before him the representation of Himself:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." Good news! good news! ring throughout the world! "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

This lesson is one of the greatest importance to every soul that lives; for the terms of salvation are here laid out in distinct lines. If one had no other text in the Bible, this alone would be a guide for the soul. {TM 370.1}

 

[rainbowinthesky]

"The lesson to Nicodemus I present as HIGHLY APPLICABLE to those who are today in responsible positions... The words of Christ are spoken just as verily to presidents of conferences, elders of churches, and those occupying official positions in our institutions..." T.M.369

sky
___________

Again; you destroy the meaning and the importance of the testimonies with your puffed up quote-whipping theology. You mis-use the testimonies to take a stab at church leadership, without due consideration of what Ellen White means. certainly; she was not singling out Church leadership...

Castaway
___________

The statements are clear. The words of Jesus to Nicodemus "You must be born again," are "HIGHLY APPLICABLE to those who are today in RESPONSIBLE POSITION... spoken just as verily to presidents of conferences, elders of churches, and those occupying official positions in our institutions,,,

But you, brother, you accuse me of destroying the meaning of the Testimonies when I did no such thing. I did not even make any attempt at any private interpretation of what these words mean because there is no need to... I reminded the reader, earlier, that "the Testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture." 1 S.M.42.

And then, ironically, you offer instead your own private opinion or interpretation of the true meaning of the words quoted!

Of course, if the men in responsible positions need to be born again, what can we expect of the majority of church members!

In 1897 Mrs White wrote, "The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world." MS 148, 1897; 6 B.C.1075

In 1889, shortly after the Conference at Minneapolis, she wrote the following words,

"There is not one in one hundred who understands for himself the Bible truth on this subject that is so necessary to our present and eternal welfare. When light begins to shine forth to make clear the plan of redemption to the people, the enemy works with all diligence that the light may be shut away from the hearts of men." 1 Selected Messages, Vol.1,360.

"The members of our churches are not incorrigible; the fault is not so much upon them as upon their teachers. Their ministers do not feed them." Special Testimonies, Series A, No.2, p.46.

Again, these statements speak for themselves.

There is a lot more to say but it will come in due time, the Lord permitting.

sky

 

[Castaway57]

The statements are clear. The words of Jesus to Nicodemus "You must be born again," are "HIGHLY APPLICABLE to those who are today in RESPONSIBLE POSITION... spoken just as verily to presidents of conferences, elders of churches, and those occupying official positions in our institutions,,,

But you, brother, you accuse me of destroying the meaning of the Testimonies when I did no such thing. I did not even make any attempt at any private interpretation of what these words mean because there is no need to... I reminded the reader, earlier, that "the Testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture." 1 S.M.42.

And then, ironically, you offer instead your own private opinion or interpretation of the true meaning of the words quoted!

You are pitting Ellen White's writings against scripture almost every time you post, and that is always wrong and needs to be questioned.

Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

If you used her writings correctly in their context, you would see the same message as scripture; and that ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE are invited, like Nicodemus to experience being born again. Jesus was not just taking a cheap pot shot at Church leadership.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

Jesus was not just taking a cheap pot shot at Church leadership.

Castaway
______________


Who is taking cheap pot shots at the leadership?

Certainly you would not suggest that when the Lord sent this testimony, "The lesson to Nicodemus I present as HIGHLY APPLICABLE to those who are today in responsible positions... The words of Christ are spoken just as verily to presidents of conferences, elders of churches, and those occupying official positions in our institutions,"

He was taking a cheap pot shot at the leadership!

Was He also taking a cheap pot shot at the leadership when in 1907, He said,

"The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men." T.M.481.

Of course not, for "His warnings are but the breathing of unutterable love." S.C.35, bottom of page.

sky

 

[Castaway57]

Jesus was not just taking a cheap pot shot at Church leadership.

Castaway
______________


Who is taking cheap pot shots at the leadership?

Certainly you would not suggest that when the Lord sent this testimony, "The lesson to Nicodemus I present as HIGHLY APPLICABLE to those who are today in responsible positions... The words of Christ are spoken just as verily to presidents of conferences, elders of churches, and those occupying official positions in our institutions,"

He was taking a cheap pot shot at the leadership!

Was He also taking a cheap pot shot at the leadership when in 1907, He said,

"The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men." T.M.481.

Of course not, for "His warnings are but the breathing of unutterable love." S.C.35, bottom of page.

sky

Well; here we go again, you lift a phrase here, a phrase there out of context and make a doctrine out of it. This "something wrong with church leadership gospel" is about as dry as the hills of Gilboa, and just about as old. I think that if you re-readwhat I wrote; you will see that my comment re taking cheap shots at church leadership was directed at and about you, and what you are trying to poison the forum with here.

What I was also saying is that when Jesus invited Nicodemus to be born again; His message was not constricted to just the religious leaders of His day where he was addressing Nicodemus; but His Words echo down the corridors of time to this our day and age; to all believers everywhere. The whole Bible is for all of the people, all of the time, and YOU are taking cheap shots at current church leadership; at the expense of Bible truth; and using Ellen White's writings in was she always decried to lend some sort of appearance of her support for your accusative mantra. The Bible is clear; and YOU cannot use Ellen White or any one else to detract from it:

Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

I am sorry if the Bible offends you, and denounces what you say so out of context.

 

[Castaway57]

Was He also taking a cheap pot shot at the leadership when in 1907, He said,

"The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men." T.M.481.

Of course not, for "His warnings are but the breathing of unutterable love." S.C.35, bottom of page.

sky

This is preaching Satan's message, and using Satans tactics from Mat 4 where he omits certain key words from scripture. You have taken a small snippet from SC, pg 35, par 3, (not bottom of page), omitted certain key words, and passages, and made it to say something quite different than what Ellen White had intended. here is how it actually reads in what she wrote; and it is VERY OBVIOUS that you have misapplied the phrase which you abbreviated as she was not on SC 35 addressing Church leaders at all:

SC.035.001
Many accept an intellectual religion, a form of godliness, when the heart is not cleansed. Let it be your prayer, "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." Psalm 51:10. Deal truly with your own soul. Be as earnest, as persistent, as you would be if your mortal life were at stake. This is a matter to be settled between God and your own soul, settled for eternity. A supposed hope, and nothing more, will prove your ruin.

SC.035.002
Study God's word prayerfully. That word presents before you, in the law of God and the life of Christ, the great principles of holiness, without which "no man shall see the Lord." Hebrews 12:14. It convinces of sin; it plainly reveals the way of salvation. Give heed to it as the voice of God speaking to your soul.

SC.035.003
As you see the enormity of sin, as you see yourself as you really are, do not give up to despair. It was sinners that Christ came to save. We have not to reconcile God to us, but--O wondrous love!--God in Christ is "reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19. He is wooing by His tender love the hearts of His erring children. No earthly parent could be as patient with the faults and mistakes of his children, as is God with those He seeks to save. No one could plead more tenderly with the transgressor. No human lips ever poured out more tender entreaties to the wanderer than does He. All His promises, His warnings, are but the breathing of unutterable love.

SC.035.004
When Satan comes to tell you that you are a great sinner, look up to your Redeemer and talk of His merits. That which will help you is to look to His light. Acknowledge your sin, but tell the enemy that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" and that you may be saved by His matchless love. 1 Timothy 1:15. Jesus asked Simon a question in regard to two debtors. One owed his lord a small sum, and the other owed him a very large sum; but he forgave them both, and Christ asked Simon which debtor would love his lord most. Simon answered, "He to whom he forgave most." Luke 7:43.

We have been great sinners, but Christ died that we might be forgiven. The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf. Those to whom He has forgiven most will love Him most, and will stand nearest to His throne to praise Him for His great love and infinite sacrifice. It is when we most fully comprehend the love of God that we best realize the sinfulness of sin. When we see the length of the chain that was let down for us, when we understand something of the infinite sacrifice that Christ has made in our behalf, the heart is melted with tenderness and contrition.

According to paragraph 2 on pg 35, she is talking about individual believers searching THE BIBLE for themselves, and counting all the promises and warnings as done in "unutterable love." This is so encouraging to know that God's Word contains such love, and such power as to help us know Him better like this in such a personal way. See John 17:3, for it tells us that it is eternal life to know Him, not the mistakes of church leaders.

You omitted the part that mentioned the word promise, and chose to just mention "warnings" as if to make this apply to your cheap pot shots at church leaders. This is not what Ellen White was doing anywhere in the whole book Steps To Christ. You totally misrepresent her ministry to the world on this forum. For those interested; you can read the book Steps To Christ here: Steps To Christ: Index Page. Just look in the chapter called "repentance." it is a really amazing piece of writing, and I am always blessed when i read it.