A Partial List of 7th Day Assemblies

Bob S said:

The big question is did Jesus do what He came to do? Some do not believe He did because they continue to keep the laws of the old covenant.

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Jesus never said that one someone does not take God's name in vain - that law being fulfilled is now deleted.

I think a lot of people already knew that.

So, Bob, just why do you keep repeating it? Tell me this; if we love God, will we take His name in vain? If we love our fellow man will we shoot him? The Gentiles never had the ten commandments yet they knew in their hearts not to hurt their fellow man. Laws dealing with morality are forever. Ceremonial laws given only to Israel ended at Calvary. All the Sabbaths given to Israel were ceremonial.

Bob S said:

So, Bob, just why do you keep repeating it?

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Because you keep bringing up that same proposal that is totally neutralized by making this one observation about the commandment in Ex 20:7.

By having such a flawed statement at the outset about commandments being deleted once Christ keeps them - a simple illustration such as Ex 20:7 serves to expose that flaw.

you post that suggestion in a lot of different posts - and it is solved with Ex 20:7 --- each time.

So I guess the bigger question is - why do you think we can't all see that - each time you do it??

Bob S said:

Tell me this; if we love God, will we take His name in vain?

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1 John 5:3-4 says if we love God we will keep His commandments.

Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" - you agree that is in the Old Covenant - right?

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and follow His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

But you did not make that kind of statement... Rather you made the statement that the Law ends when Christ fulfills the requirement -- as if it would be ok to take God's name in vain once Christ did not take God's name in vain.

We all know that Laws dealing with morality are forever.

Even the Sunday groups admit that all TEN of the TEN Commandments are in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant.

But they are also in the Old Covenant - since they "define what sin is" 1 John 3:4

All the Sabbaths given to Israel were ceremonial.

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Until you read Genesis 2:1-3, Ex 20:11 and Is 66:23 to note that for all eternity after the cross - "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

Wow!, Studyman, two long drawn-out posts trying to make the scriptures I provided tell us we are under the old covenant laws. You could have read 2Cor3:6-11 and found out that indeed we are not under the Sinai covenant's ten commandment laws.

What is the opposite of the word fulfilled? Why would Jesus use the term "pass" in verse 18? For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Doesn't the word "pass" mean end in that sentence especially with "till" in the sentence? Till what? Till Jesus brought all the jots and tittles to an end. He ratified His new covenant at Calvary ending the old one as prophesied in Jeremiah. According to you we must be under two covenants? Paul certainly didn't think so and I believe Paul over all that you write.

Bob S said:

Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Doesn't the word "pass" mean end in that sentence especially with "till" in the sentence?

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When you look up - do you still see the first heaven?
When you look down - do you still see Earth?

Actually, Jesus was using a metaphor to tell the Jews that ALL the law was still in effect until He completely fulfilled it at Calvary.

Bob S said:

Actually, Jesus was using a metaphor to tell the Jews that ALL the law was still in effect until He completely fulfilled it at Calvary.

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As you already admitted - moral law is not deleted as soon as someone complies with it.

1. So then -- He never said that.

Bob S said:

Laws dealing with morality are forever.

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2. So then it is "still a sin" to take God's name in vain - even after the cross.

3. The same "keep the commandments" teaching that Christ gives in Matt 19 are given by Paul in Rom 13 showing that the eisegeting the phrase "UNTIL He completely fulfilled it at Calvary" into Matt 5 does not survive the Matt 19 to Rom 13 comparison.

4. As all Bible scholars in all major denominations freely admit when it comes to affirming all TEN of the TEN Commandments being included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant.

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predictive laws are fulfilled by future events.
prescriptive laws (moral laws) are not deleted once someone complies with one

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These points have been made a bazillion times in this sort of discussion as the answer to an idea that does not hold up to these Bible details -- and then the "circle back" to the original suggestion ( that was already addressed) appears again (gets posted "over again") calling for the same points to be posted as the same irrefutable answer to the same question/suggestion.

Bob S said:

Wow!, Studyman, two long drawn-out posts trying to make the scriptures I provided tell us we are under the old covenant laws. You could have read 2Cor3:6-11 and found out that indeed we are not under the Sinai covenant's ten commandment laws.

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Actually NO, the Scriptures I posted, expose your religious philosophy as from man and not God, without any help from me. And of course you must ignore the Scriptures where Paul is telling you that you are the servant to whom ever you "Yield Yourself" to obey. You just switched from Ellen White to Calvin and Pink. But Paul said we are to "offer ourselves", "Yield ourselves" to God, not popular religious voices of the religions of this world.

What is the opposite of the word fulfilled?

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According to Jesus, "Destroy" is the opposite of Fulfill.

Fulfilled, Strongs "1096" Greek = ginomai means "To Continue to be" to "Become" (come into being) Be brought to pass, come to pass, continue, be divided, etc.

Destroyed, Strongs "2647" Greek = kataino means "to loosen down", to demolish, to halt for the night, destroy, dissolve etc..

You are ignorant of the Biblical Fact that the mainstream preachers of that time, were "Teaching for doctrines the Commandments of Men", at least according to the Jesus of the Bible. Jesus came, in part, to bring the Word's of His Father the Pharisees had "omitted" from their religion. That is what HE was doing in Matt. 5. He taught ALL of God's Law, He wasn't Partial in the Law as the "Them of old time" became.

Why would Jesus use the term "pass" in verse 18?

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Because HE knew you and the Pope and Calvin and "Many" more who call Him Lord, Lord, were all going to continue on the path the Jews had forged in a centuries long Jihad against God's Laws, that started with the serpent in the garden. Jesus wanted His Servants, those who "Yield themselves" to Him and His Father, to know HE isn't the one promoting the erosion and elimination of the Laws Paul said were "Written for our Sake's no doubt". (Another scripture you must omit from your religion)

So HE said "Don't even think" I came to "Loosen down, diminish, destroy or dissolve the Law and Prophets, like the mainstream preachers of this world teach. I came not to destroy My Father's Laws and Examples HE had Written for your admonition, but to show you the perfection and benefit in "Yielding yourselves" to them. I am the result of a man who "Yields Himself, Humbles Himself, to the God of the bible. "follow ME" HE Said.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Doesn't the word "pass" mean end in that sentence especially with "till" in the sentence?

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I would say yes, as long as the same Heaven and Earth that the Christ walked is still here, and has not "Ended" or Passed, then "EVERY WORD" Which Proceeds from the Mouth of God shall not Pass either.

Till what? Till Jesus brought all the jots and tittles to an end.

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Which HE tells you to your face that HE DID NOT COME TO do, in fact, for you not to even "THINK" He will do, as long as This Earth, and the Heaven that exists in This Life are here. And yet, that is exactly what you and the mainstream religions of this land preach, as well as the mainstream preachers of Jesus time taught.

He ratified His new covenant at Calvary ending the old one as prophesied in Jeremiah.

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I agree with this statement. So What is the New Covenant according to the God who created it. Lets let God answer this for us.

Jer. 31:33" But this shall be the covenant that I will make " with the house of Israel;

OK Bob, here it is. Here is the God of the Bible, the Word of God which became Flesh, telling YOU, what HIS New Covenant is. All you need to do is believe Him.

After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Isn't this the same thing Jesus said in Matt. 5? After "what days" Bob? Isn't this "After Calvary"? Please answer my questions as I am answering yours. And how long after His Resurrection do you believe HE intends to "write God's Laws" in the minds of HIS People? Wouldn't that be for as long as this heaven and this earth are here?

But you imply in your religious philosophy that Jesus stopped "writing God's Laws" on the minds of His People at Calvary. That God's Laws "Passed" because "Jesus brought all the jots and tittles to an end" at His Death. A teaching that flies in the face of the Jesus of the Bible and HIS New Covenant. Doesn't that bother you a little?

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:

How were God's Laws administered Before "After those days" Bob? Were we not required to go find a Levite Priest to read them for us? But now look, you have the Oracles of God in your own Home, in your own mind, just as He Promised. And you have been forgiven your past sins so you are free to "Serve Another" or as Paul calls it "Yield Yourself" to this same God.

And yet you still reject them as Jeremiah also Prophesied in Chapter 6. "But they said, We will not walk therein.

for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

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How was sin forgiven prior to "After those days"? Of course you will not answer this question either.

According to you we must be under two covenants? Paul certainly didn't think so and I believe Paul over all that you write.

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Actually you don't even know or acknowledge God's old Covenant, nor do you acknowledge HIS New Covenant. You don't understand that the Covenant that changed was the Priesthood Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf on Mt. Sinai because of the Golden calf. It is the Priesthood Covenant that changed. Not God's Laws, Statutes, Commandments and Judgments Abraham was blessed for obeying.

There are two covenants to be sure. The one created by the catholic Church and her Protestant Daughter that you are promoting, and the New Covenant Given to us by the God of the Bible that I just posted.

I know none of this will cause you to "take heed", at least that has been your custom. And it is sad because you have His Word right in your hands, something other generations before "After those days" never had.

And yet, you still don't believe what is written.

Surely there is no new thing under the sun.

And, in the context of the end of time, God says:

namohcam said:

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4)
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And, in the context of the end of time, God says:

Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. (Malachi 4:4)​

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Very clever eisegesis.

bbbbbbb said:

Very clever eisegesis.

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Am I wrong?

namohcam said:

Am I wrong?

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Judas went out and hanged himself. Matthew 27:5

Go and do thou likewise. Luke 10:37

Am I wrong?

bbbbbbb said:

Judas went out and hanged himself. Matthew 27:5

Go and do thou likewise. Luke 10:37

Am I wrong?

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Yes, you are wrong. And that's not very clever, either. Notice how I say that directly, without sarcasm.

I was talking about two subjects: The law of Moses; and the end of time.
The former of which is bookended by the latter within a very short fourth chapter of the same book (Malachi).

Your example (which has been used thousands upon thousands of times to refute ultra-literalism--to which I do not subscribe) is from two completely different stories and two different Gospel accounts (different books).

See any difference?

I did not mean to suggest that the laws which foreshadowed Christ's literal role in the atonement should be observed in practice today. But merely that God says the study of the Torah would help people to understand their relation to God at the end of time. That seems clear enough to me from the text itself.

Am I wrong?

It's okay not to believe that God never changes and to believe that when Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 12:13: "Fear God, and keep His commandments; for this is the whole duty of man," what he actually meant was: "Fear God, and keep His commandments; for this is the whole duty of the Jew." I'm a fierce advocate of religious liberty.

But why can't we all just be honest about our refusal to obey God? I am. I'm a sinner saved by grace. I do things that I know I shouldn't be doing, and I don't do things that I know I should be doing. But I refuse to deny my wrongdoing. I fear denial. I want that God's spirit should never leave me.

I woke up one day and realized that I could not depend on the faith of my mother and father to just happen to be the one of which God approves. I had to make a decision. I've had to make many similar decisions since that time; many forks in the road. I'm going to seek God's will, though the heavens fall, regardless of what my father, my pastor, or the President has to say. Amen.

And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. (1 Corinthians 8:2)

namohcam said:

Yes, you are wrong. And that's not very clever, either. Notice how I say that directly, without sarcasm.

I was talking about two subjects: The law of Moses; and the end of time.
The former of which is bookended by the latter within a very short fourth chapter of the same book (Malachi).

Your example (which has been used thousands upon thousands of times to refute ultra-literalism--to which I do not subscribe) is from two completely different stories and two different Gospel accounts (different books).

See any difference?

I did not mean to suggest that the laws which foreshadowed Christ's literal role in the atonement should be observed in practice today. But merely that God says the study of the Torah would help people to understand their relation to God at the end of time. That seems clear enough to me from the text itself.

Am I wrong?

It's okay not to believe that God never changes and to believe that when Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 12:13: "Fear God, and keep His commandments; for this is the whole duty of man," what he actually meant was: "Fear God, and keep His commandments; for this is the whole duty of the Jew." I'm a fierce advocate of religious liberty.

But why can't we all just be honest about our refusal to obey God? I am. I'm a sinner saved by grace. I do things that I know I shouldn't be doing, and I don't do things that I know I should be doing. But I refuse to deny my wrongdoing. I fear denial. I want that God's spirit should never leave me.

I woke up one day and realized that I could not depend on the faith of my mother and father to just happen to be the one of which God approves. I had to make a decision. I've had to make many similar decisions since that time; many forks in the road. I'm going to seek God's will, though the heavens fall, regardless of what my father, my pastor, or the President has to say. Amen.

And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. (1 Corinthians 8:2)

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It seems that we were each talking about two different subjects. The fact that you chose to draw a connection between your two subjects and I chose to draw a connection between my two subjects makes them both superior examples of really rotten eisegesis.

bbbbbbb said:

It seems that we were each talking about two different subjects. The fact that you chose to draw a connection between your two subjects and I chose to draw a connection between my two subjects makes them both superior examples of really rotten eisegesis.

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Rotten eisegesis--isn't that a bit redundant? I'm not aware that I made any eisegesis, btw. I said that that a counsel/command to remember the writings of Moses is being given in the context of the 2nd coming of Christ. That is exactly what is happening in Malachi 4. No eisegesis necessary.

The reason to remember them is quite obvious--they are, in fact, being marginalized systematically and relentlessly.

namohcam said:

Rotten eisegesis--isn't that a bit redundant? I'm not aware that I made any eisegesis, btw. I said that that a counsel/command to remember the writings of Moses is being given in the context of the 2nd coming of Christ. That is exactly what is happening in Malachi 4. No eisegesis necessary.

The reason to remember them is quite obvious--they are, in fact, being marginalized systematically and relentlessly.

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If you say so.

HARK! said:

Perhaps this verse will help you with context:

(CLV) Mt 24:35
Heaven and earth shall be passing by, yet My words may by no means be passing by.

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One must identify "My words". In Matt 5 His words were not one jot or one tittle would pass from the law till all be fulfilled. Realize what that meant. Every law that God gave Israel at the point of Jesus words were binding. The only thing that could, in the future change that was the clarification Jesus added. "Till" all be fulfilled. All must have been fulfilled at some point because Jews are no longer sacrificing animals now, are they? All the Law was fulfilled by Jesus. No one is under the old covenant laws and of course that means Sabbath laws too. Paul wrote in Gal 3:19 that the Law was until Jesus. John the Baptist said: Jn1: 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

HARK! said:

(CLV) Jn 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and We shall be coming to him and making an abode with him.

(CLV) Jn 14:24
He who is not loving Me, is not keeping My words. And the word which you are hearing is not Mine, but the Father's Who sends Me.

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Jesus' word to new covenant believers is found in:
Jn15: 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

All has not been fulfilled. The best is yet to come.

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So, what you are telling me is that Jesus really didn't fulfill all He came to do. He said in verse 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. According to you Jesus didn't do what He came to do. I find that very interesting.

There weren't animal sacrifices when Israel went into Babylonian captivity either.

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Completely moot point. You can do better than that.

There will be sacrifices in the Millennial Kingdom.

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Jesus is not enough? Some scripture would help.

(CLV) Jer 33:18
As for the Levitical priests there shall not be cut off a man from before Me who offers up the ascent offering and fumes the approach present and offers sacrifices for all the days.

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18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.

And now it is to be fulfilled in us.


(CLV) Ro 8:4
that the just requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who are not walking in accord with flesh, but in accord with spirit.

Yahshua has not yet fulfilled all prophecy. When do you suppose that he fulfilled all pf the law?

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At Calvary. Read Heb 8, 9 and 10

↑Bob wrote:
No one is under the old covenant laws and of course that means Sabbath laws too.

We are under the penalty of those laws; if we continue in our transgressions.

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How is that possible Hark? The old covenant has passed away. All mankind are under the new covenant. Our transgressions are not based on the expired old covenant that was only for Israel in the first place.


↑Bob wrote:
Paul wrote in Gal 3:19 that the Law was until Jesus.

What do you suppose that he meant by that? Certainly you aren't asserting that the law evaporated when Yahshua was born?

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Was it not John the Baptist that said: Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Yes Hark, the law did evaporate at Calvary only to be replaced with the new and better laws of the new covenant.

(CLV) Ps 119:142
Your righteousness is eonian righteousness, And Your law is truth.

We find the word חן "grace" throughout the TaNaK. What do you suppose that this verse means?

Was not Yahshua in the beginning?

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Certainly He was. Abraham was saved by Grace as revealed by Moses who led the Israelites to Canaan. I am sure Moses would not have kept Grace a secret. All Mankind was/is saved by Grace for all of us have transgressed the requirement of God. Israel under the old covenant and all the rest of us under the new covenant. The old covenant was not meant to be salvational. We read in Ex 19:5-6 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”