A Necessity - 4 Marian Doctrines

[NotUrAvgGuy]

You never quite got around to what happens when you sins are forgiven? Which begs the question, how are they forgiven? In your previous post you said righteousness resided with sin. Explain how that happens. How does the Holy Spirit enter into you if your full of dung? Does your God reside in dung?

JoeT

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Ours sins are forgiven the moment we ask God's forgiveness and ask Jesus to be our Lord and Savior. We are positionally declared righteous by God. We are justified. The Helper, the Holy Spirit comes and dwells in us.

We have been made righteous by the righteousness of Jesus Christ. We may call ourselves dung because we are disgusted with our sin, but in the eyes of God we are righteous. With the aid of the Holy Spirit we begin the process of sanctification.

We could never have the Holy Spirit if God could not send His Holy Spirit into a sinner. Jesus promised the HS to his followers. He did so knowing they would still be sinners.

God the Father is pictured as sitting on a throne in heaven yet the triune God is omnipresent. The HS indwells us but in a different way than the Second Person of the Trinity becoming man. God is omnipresent so how can He reside in dung? There is no place you can go where God is not present except in hell itself.

What a wonder of grace the Holy Spirit can indwell a sinful human! God's wonders never cease.

 

[JoeT]

Ours sins are forgiven the moment we ask God's forgiveness and ask Jesus to be our Lord and Savior. We are positionally declared righteous by God. We are justified. The Helper, the Holy Spirit comes and dwells in us.

This is a peculiar statement. Why should we ask? Hasn't your god already input his goodness? Does this god rank us, this one before the other, the right then above him the righteous, then enters this pile of dung?

We have been made righteous by the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

How is dung "made righteous" - that is non-dung?

We may call ourselves dung because we are disgusted with our sin, but in the eyes of God we are righteous. With the aid of the Holy Spirit we begin the process of sanctification.

I see! Your god just names you righteous, without any real righteousness.

We could never have the Holy Spirit if God could not send His Holy Spirit into a sinner. Jesus promised the HS to his followers. He did so knowing they would still be sinners.

And the Holy Spirit communes with you

God the Father is pictured as sitting on a throne in heaven yet the triune God is omnipresent. The HS indwells us but in a different way than the Second Person of the Trinity becoming man. God is omnipresent so how can He reside in dung? There is no place you can go where God is not present except in hell itself.

What a wonder of grace the Holy Spirit can indwell a sinful human! God's wonders never cease.

Yes, it is indeed a wonder, but not reality.

JoeT

 

[BNR32FAN]

On recent threads, the conversation turned to the Mother of God, Mary. I contend however that the Catholic Marian Doctrines are not only profitable to knowing Jesus Christ, but also a necessity to our love of the Lord.

St. Augustine once said, and I’ll paraphrase, ‘no one can love what is not known’. [St. Augustine, On the Holy Trinity, X] St. Paul gets more to the point couching it a little differently, “But if any man love God, the same is known by him." [1 Corinthians 8:3]. You might recall from the Magnificat where Mary makes two passionate statements. The first is she is the handmaiden of God implying a spousal relationship. The other is that her soul “magnifies the Lord”.

And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him. He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart. He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble. He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy: As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed forever." [Luke 1:46-55]​

The four Marian dogmas regarding Mary are the Mother of God, Immaculate Conception, perpetual virginity, and Assumption, I’m not sure if they came in that order. Nevertheless, each of these doctrines ‘magnify’ the Lord who is the Second Person of the Trinity, wholly Divine, wholly human without mixing or confusion, in unity uniquely and inseparably joined.

Consequently, without adopting and knowing these doctrines one does not truly know Jesus Christ except maybe superficially, a peffi faith [Cf. 1 Corinthians 8:3]. Jesus Christ becomes a confused image in a dark opaque shadow.

JoeT

Just because you claim that a person must believe these doctrines in order to know & love Christ doesn’t make it true.

 

[BNR32FAN]

“Who is this gate (Ezekiel 44:1-4), if not Mary? Is it not closed because she is a virgin? Mary is the gate through which Christ entered this world, when He was brought forth in the virginal birth and the manner of His birth did not break the seals of virginity.” – St. Ambrose of Milan (ca AD 390)

“It is written (Ezekiel 44, 2): ‘This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it. Because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it…’ What means this closed gate in the house of the Lord, except that Mary is to be ever inviolate? What does it mean that ‘no man shall pass through it,’ save that Joseph shall not know her? And what is this – ‘The Lord alone enters in and goeth out by it,’ except that the Holy Ghost shall impregnate her, and that the Lord of Angels shall be born of her? And what means this – ‘It shall be shut for evermore,’ but that Mary is a Virgin before His birth, a Virgin in His birth, and a Virgin after His birth.” – St. Augustine (ca AD 430)

JoeT

The gate may not be metaphorical for anyone but instead just a physical gate that the Lord brought him to and told him not to let anyone enter it. You never answered my question, did Christ go out thru the same gate that He entered from? Did He go out from the world thru Mary? No He didn’t, so your ascribing a verse to Mary that doesn’t fit the situation. Your cherry picking one small portion of the passage and ignoring the rest of it that doesn’t coincide with what actually took place.

 

[JoeT]

The gate may not be metaphorical for anyone but instead just a physical gate that the Lord brought him to and told him not to let anyone enter it. You never answered my question, did Christ go out thru the same gate that He entered from? Did He go out from the world thru Mary? No He didn’t, so your ascribing a verse to Mary that doesn’t fit the situation. Your cherry picking one small portion of the passage and ignoring the rest of it that doesn’t coincide with what actually took place.

Why yes, Jesus Christ did indeed go out into the world through the gate that no one can pass except Him. Christ enters the womb of Mary. Christ, the prince, sat there in and grew in human knowledge (eating bread). He then left by the same gate which no other can enter.

​

"And he brought me back to the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary, which looked towards the east: and it was shut. And the Lord said to me: This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it: because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it, and it shall be shut For the prince. The prince himself shall sit in it, to eat bread before the Lord: he shall enter in by the way of the porch of the gate, and shall go out by the same way. And he brought me by the way of the north gate, in the sight of the house: and I saw, and behold the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord: and I fell on my face." [Ezechiel 44:1-4]​

Entering or exiting, the gate remains intact.

JoeT

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why yes, Jesus Christ did indeed go out into the world through the gate that no one can pass except Him. Christ enters the womb of Mary. Christ, the prince, sat there in and grew in human knowledge (eating bread). He then left by the same gate which no other can enter.

​

"And he brought me back to the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary, which looked towards the east: and it was shut. And the Lord said to me: This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it: because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it, and it shall be shut For the prince. The prince himself shall sit in it, to eat bread before the Lord: he shall enter in by the way of the porch of the gate, and shall go out by the same way. And he brought me by the way of the north gate, in the sight of the house: and I saw, and behold the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord: and I fell on my face." [Ezechiel 44:1-4]​

Entering or exiting, the gate remains intact.

JoeT

A person goes THROUGH a gate. So in one instance your saying that Jesus entered INTO Mary which would have her being Jerusalem not the gate because the prince entered INTO Jerusalem THROUGH the gate. Then in the next instance your saying that Jesus exited Mary into the world which would be the correct application but now the first part of His entering is incorrect. So either way it still doesn’t accurately fit the situation. If Jesus entered the world through Mary then He couldn’t have exited the world through Mary. If Jesus entered into Mary then she’s not the gate in that passage she’s Jerusalem because you can’t have her being the gate to enter into herself. So she’s either the gate or Jerusalem not both.

 

[prodromos]

The gate may not be metaphorical for anyone but instead just a physical gate that the Lord brought him to and told him not to let anyone enter it. You never answered my question, did Christ go out thru the same gate that He entered from? Did He go out from the world thru Mary? No He didn’t, so your ascribing a verse to Mary that doesn’t fit the situation.

Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces east; and it was shut. And he said to me, “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut. Only the prince may sit in it to eat bread before the Lord; he shall enter by way of the vestibule of the gate, and shall go out by the same way.”

The vestibule of the gate is not the gate itself. No one leaves by the gate. The prince enters and leaves by the vestibule of the gate but not the gate itself. Only the Lord God of Israel entered by the gate. Once He entered , He did not leave.

 

[JoeT]

A person goes THROUGH a gate. So in one instance your saying that Jesus entered INTO Mary which would have her being Jerusalem not the gate because the prince entered INTO Jerusalem THROUGH the gate.

He entered the womb of Mary, and without destroying the gate.

Then in the next instance your saying that Jesus exited Mary into the world which would be the correct application but now the first part of His entering is incorrect.

He left out the vestibule's gate when He was born, and without destroying the gate, it was shut behind him. Now do I have to be graphic and spell out what the gate is?

So either way it still doesn’t accurately fit the situation. If Jesus entered the world through Mary then He couldn’t have exited the world through Mary.

Oh, indeed He did leave the womb of Mary.

If Jesus entered into Mary then she’s not the gate in that passage she’s Jerusalem because you can’t have her being the gate to enter into herself. So she’s either the gate or Jerusalem not both.

We're not talking about Jerusalem, we're talking about Mary.

"And the Lord said to me: This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it: because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it, and it shall be shut" [Ezechiel 44:2]

Interesting isn't it. No man will enter except the Lord, who enters as an infant and He leaves by the same gate.

JoeT

 

[bbbbbbb]

He entered the womb of Mary, and without destroying the gate.

He left out the vestibule's gate when He was born, and without destroying the gate, it was shut behind him. Now do I have to be graphic and spell out what the gate is?

Oh, indeed He did leave the womb of Mary.

We're not talking about Jerusalem, we're talking about Mary.

"And the Lord said to me: This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it: because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it, and it shall be shut" [Ezechiel 44:2]

Interesting isn't it. No man will enter except the Lord, who enters as an infant and He leaves by the same gate.

JoeT

Do you believe that Jesus Christ was born through Mary's side since her "gate" had been eternally closed? This belief was actually quite popular in the early development of Mariology.

 

[JoeT]

Do you believe that Jesus Christ was born through Mary's side since her "gate" had been eternally closed? This belief was actually quite popular in the early development of Mariology.

I have heard of it, but dismissed it. If you recall Scripture claims Jesus Christ has two inseparable uniquely joined natures, wholly divine, wholly human. If we hold that he is wholly human than his birth was the same as any infant's birth.

JoeT

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

This is a peculiar statement. Why should we ask? Hasn't your god already input his goodness? Does this god rank us, this one before the other, the right then above him the righteous, then enters this pile of dung?

How is dung "made righteous" - that is non-dung?

I see! Your god just names you righteous, without any real righteousness.

And the Holy Spirit communes with you

Yes, it is indeed a wonder, but not reality.

JoeT

What do you believe Joe? You must either believe we are righteous (in which case I would like to know your definition of that) or you don't believe the HS indwells believers. Exactly when and how does the HS indwell us?

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Why yes, Jesus Christ did indeed go out into the world through the gate that no one can pass except Him. Christ enters the womb of Mary. Christ, the prince, sat there in and grew in human knowledge (eating bread). He then left by the same gate which no other can enter.

​

"And he brought me back to the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary, which looked towards the east: and it was shut. And the Lord said to me: This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it: because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it, and it shall be shut For the prince. The prince himself shall sit in it, to eat bread before the Lord: he shall enter in by the way of the porch of the gate, and shall go out by the same way. And he brought me by the way of the north gate, in the sight of the house: and I saw, and behold the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord: and I fell on my face." [Ezechiel 44:1-4]​

Entering or exiting, the gate remains intact.

JoeT

There is nothing in the context that applies the gate to Mary. That is pure supposition and isigesis. It simply says only the Prince (the Messiah may sit in the portico of the gate and eat the sacrificial bread. It doesn't even say the Prince enters through it. It says the Lord God of Isreal hath (past tense) entered by it. Now it is shut and only the Prince can use it. This has nothing to do with Mary. Pure fabrication.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I have heard of it, but dismissed it. If you recall Scripture claims Jesus Christ has two inseparable uniquely joined natures, wholly divine, wholly human. If we hold that he is wholly human than his birth was the same as any infant's birth.

JoeT

Well, if you believe that, then either the usage of the passage from Ezekiel is seriously flawed, because it is twisted to mean that the gate is Mary's vagina, or Mary did not remain a perpetual virgin because her virginity was lost as Jesus Christ broke through her hymen in the process of birth (thus entering through the "gate"). The only logical means of appropriating the Ezekiel text in the manner which the RCC has done, is to come up with a miraculous birth process (i.e. being born through Mary's side than through her vagina).

 

[BNR32FAN]

Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces east; and it was shut. And he said to me, “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut. Only the prince may sit in it to eat bread before the Lord; he shall enter by way of the vestibule of the gate, and shall go out by the same way.”

The vestibule of the gate is not the gate itself. No one leaves by the gate. The prince enters and leaves by the vestibule of the gate but not the gate itself. Only the Lord God of Israel entered by the gate. Once He entered , He did not leave.

But the passage says that the prince will leave by the same gate.

 

[BNR32FAN]

He entered the womb of Mary, and without destroying the gate.

He left out the vestibule's gate when He was born, and without destroying the gate, it was shut behind him. Now do I have to be graphic and spell out what the gate is?

Oh, indeed He did leave the womb of Mary.

We're not talking about Jerusalem, we're talking about Mary.

"And the Lord said to me: This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it: because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it, and it shall be shut" [Ezechiel 44:2]

Interesting isn't it. No man will enter except the Lord, who enters as an infant and He leaves by the same gate.

JoeT

Your still not making any sense because you keep changing what the gate is. Now your saying that He entered her womb but didn’t enter thru the her vagina then you say he exited her womb thru her vagina so on His entry your saying that He didn’t enter thru the gate. Jesus was incarnated that’s why Mary remained a virgin because nothing had entered her vagina. So in this attempt to twist this verse your not being consistent on what the gate actually is. No matter how you try to explain it, it doesn’t work because Jesus did not come into Mary or into the world the same way He went out.

 

[prodromos]

But the passage says that the prince will leave by the same gate.

No, it says the prince will enter by the vestibule of the gate and leave the same way. He doesn't enter by the gate, only the Lord God of Israel enters by the gate.

 

[JoeT]

Well, if you believe that, then either the usage of the passage from Ezekiel is seriously flawed, because it is twisted to mean that the gate is Mary's vagina, or Mary did not remain a perpetual virgin because her virginity was lost as Jesus Christ broke through her hymen in the process of birth (thus entering through the "gate"). The only logical means of appropriating the Ezekiel text in the manner which the RCC has done, is to come up with a miraculous birth process (i.e. being born through Mary's side than through her vagina).

What makes you think Christ would harm the lest hair of His mother's head. And scientifically, for a young woman, the membrane is quite flexible and can be torn, or simply moved aside without harm to it due to physical activity.

Why don't you tell us the metaphysical importance of these verses? It seems out place otherwise.

JoeT

 

[bbbbbbb]

What makes you think Christ would harm the lest hair of His mother's head. And scientifically, for a young woman, the membrane is quite flexible and can be torn, or simply moved aside without harm to it due to physical activity.

Why don't you tell us the metaphysical importance of these verses? It seems out place otherwise.

JoeT

Joe, you can't have it both ways. Once a woman's hymen is broken she is no longer a virgin. Either Jesus Christ was born vaginally and Mary ceased to be a virgin at his birth or Mary remains a perpetual virgin and Jesus Christ was not born vaginally.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Well, if you believe that, then either the usage of the passage from Ezekiel is seriously flawed, because it is twisted to mean that the gate is Mary's vagina, or Mary did not remain a perpetual virgin because her virginity was lost as Jesus Christ broke through her hymen in the process of birth (thus entering through the "gate"). The only logical means of appropriating the Ezekiel text in the manner which the RCC has done, is to come up with a miraculous birth process (i.e. being born through Mary's side than through her vagina).

Don't get caught in playing the RC allegory game. The passage in Ezekiel is not about Mary. Scripture does not establish gates as a symbol for birth or birthing. To apply this prophecy to Mary is pure unfounded speculation. It's not worth debating. It has nothing to do with Mary! This is what they resort to when Scripture does not teach their doctrine. They look for something obscure to twist and strain and claim it means something it does not. The gate is not Mary or her womb.