LDS A name that's not acceptable

[JacobKStarkey]

I found this LDS article on who Jesus is to the LDS people and it puts Jesus as a spirit child of God and a brother to Lucifer and therefore Jesus is our spirit brother as well. Did I get that right. Then how is Jesus a God to them? I'm trying to figure out what they mean when they say the Church of Jesus the Christ of LDS:

How can Jesus and Lucifer be spirit brothers when their characters and purposes are so utterly opposed?

And the reason why I'm asking is because the Bible has Jesus proclaiming that He is the Father to His disciples in the new testament? Or did I get that wrong? John 14:9

You have the first part of that right. Keep reading for the rest of it.

 

[devin553344]

Now you are changing from worshiping JSJr. to worshiping his revelations.

That's a start.

Most Christians do not believe in biblical literalism, as you well know.

Well worship is a relative term but I felt I should tone down the message as to not offend.

 

[dzheremi]

I should tone down the message as to not offend.

Explaining to Mormons how the Christian God we worship is not the same as the God/gods they worship tends to offend them, but how else can anyone put it? They certainly aren't the same, and we ought not pretend as though they are for the sake of others' feelings.

And from your other post, "What's that even mean?"...man...I've asked that so many times in my years with Mormons here, and I would say at least 90% of the time you need to be prepared to be disappointed by the severely underwhelming answer(s) you'll receive. Mormon theology and especially soteriology is confusing, but nothing in Mormonism so far as I've found it from talking to Mormons here is particularly deep. With all due respect to teenagers, you can sort of tell that it was invented by a teenager with an overactive imagination, rather than being a mature account from one who had met and known God (e.g., St. Mark, St. Peter, St. Matthew, etc.), as the NT writings are. That's why so much of what Mormons say on here yields a "What does that even mean?" sort of response in the first place.

Good luck with your search for meaning in Mormonism.

 

[Not David]

How so, David?

Well, Christians calls a lot of heresies based on the name of a person:
Arius = Arianism
Nestorious = Nestorianism

Even denominations or theologies are based on men: Lutheranism or Calvinism

 

[devin553344]

Explaining to Mormons how the Christian God we worship is not the same as the God/gods they worship tends to offend them, but how else can anyone put it? They certainly aren't the same, and we ought not pretend as though they are for the sake of others' feelings.

And from your other post, "What's that even mean?"...man...I've asked that so many times in my years with Mormons here, and I would say at least 90% of the time you need to be prepared to be disappointed by the severely underwhelming answer(s) you'll receive. Mormon theology and especially soteriology is confusing, but nothing in Mormonism so far as I've found it from talking to Mormons here is particularly deep. With all due respect to teenagers, you can sort of tell that it was invented by a teenager with an overactive imagination, rather than being a mature account from one who had met and known God (e.g., St. Mark, St. Peter, St. Matthew, etc.), as the NT writings are. That's why so much of what Mormons say on here yields as "What does that even mean?" sort of response in the first place.

Good luck with your search for meaning in Mormonism.

I'm re-exploring why I switched to Christianity really. It's been relieving actually. I have family that are Mormons and sometimes I catch myself wondering if I'm wrong. But then I come here and get filled with actual theology and it makes sense again.

 

[devin553344]

[edit]

 

[dzheremi]

Well, Christians calls a lot of heresies based on the name of a person:
Arius = Arianism
Nestorious = Nestorianism

Even denominations or theologies are based on men: Lutheranism or Calvinism

True, but it's not called "Smithism", It's called Mormonism after Mormon, the prophet-historian who wrote the book which now bears his name on the golden plates given to Joseph Smith, according to the Mormon narrative.

So it's not really like calling Muslims "Mohammedans". If we called them "Jibrilians" (after Jibril, the Muslim Arabic* form of "Gabriel", the angel who supposedly brought Muhammad Allah's revelations that were codified in the Qur'an), then it would be similar, but we don't do that and never have.

* Christians use Jibra'il/Gibra'il (جِبْرَائِيلُ). There are a lot of differences like this between Muslim and Christian Arabic concerning the proper names of Biblical figures, since the Qur'an basically corrupts nearly everything Muslims say and believe about Biblical figures.

 

[dzheremi]

I'm re-exploring why I switched to Christianity really. It's been relieving actually. I have family that are Mormons and sometimes I catch myself wondering if I'm wrong. But then I come here and get filled with actual theology and it makes sense again.

That's good to hear, my friend. Keep it up. I don't come from a Mormon background, but when I was in my teens/early 20s my father's now ex-wife converted to Mormonism while they were still married, so I saw a lot of Mormonism's teachings and methods of recruitment up close for a while, because they came to our house often while in the process of converting her (and trying to convert me and my father, but luckily that didn't last long). I've certainly learned a lot more about Mormonism since posting here, though, so that's really good. I agree it does strengthen the Christian witness, because it helps a person to really dig into "Okay, we believe A instead of B, but now I have to explain why, because I have a person who believes in B now saying that I'm wrong." It's good to be on your toes, because sometimes the Mormons have very good questions or points that take some research to address.

 

[Ironhold]

When you get an LDS King James version from the LDS book store it comes with the translations and foot notes directing you to those translations. And they use those translations in bible study during church services.

...Alongside the standard KJV translation, so that people can compare the two.

 

[devin553344]

...Alongside the standard KJV translation, so that people can compare the two.

Yeah that does seem important. Don't want to add or remove any words from Gods revelation?

 

[Peter1000]

Okay. Seems like a waste of time and money. Does the leadership not remember how they've already tried this several times since the early 1980s, and it has never, ever stuck?

I'm still going to call it the Mormon religion/Mormonism, and its people the Mormons, as I'm assuming most people will likewise do. I don't know why they run from such a very strong 'brand-recognition' as they already have, all in attempt -- which they have the audacity to attribute to 'revelation' (yeah, right; and I'm Joseph Smith) -- to force their ecclesiology o n the rest of the world that largely doesn't even see them as Christian or care what they have to say about anything.

This is an interesting thing about a prophet of God. Our current prophet, Russell M. Nelson, told the church that Jesus Christ was not pleased that we were willing to use nicknames that did not refer to him. Mormons, LDS, Latter-day Saints, all refer to the people of the church and by-step the founder of his church. Therefore we are not interested in a brand name, we are more interested in pleasing Jesus Christ who is the head of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I will on occasion still use

 

[Peter1000]

Yes they believe in a Savior. The problem is that it is not the same Savior as stated in the Bible. In the Bible Jesus the Christ affirms that marriage does not exist in heaven, etc etc etc. They re-wrote the bible a lot, which distorts Jesus' doctrine. Which is why I find it odd that they use Jesus' name?

If they are using Jesus' name they should be accepting His doctrines.

We have serious foundational scriptures that lead us to believe in Jesus Christ the way we do.

You have serious foundational scriptures that lead you to believe in the Jesus Christ the way you do.

The bible provides ample scriptures for both of us. However, there is just one Jesus Christ and we both follow him, but have a different outlook as to his nature and his relationship with God the Father. His Father and our Father, his God and our God. (John 20:17)

This is the perfect scripture to try out our different outlooks. Do you believe that Jesus has a God?

 

[Peter1000]

What I find interesting is that people say "Jesus Christ" as if Christ is His last name. I always refer to Him as "Jesus the Christ". I felt God telling me to address Him that way. Christ is a title not a name. Maybe it's a little petty, but out of respect I kept the correction.

When I went to that church they preached a lot of Joseph Smith instead of Jesus the Christ really. Maybe they should name it after the founder Joseph Smith, since he did change the bible to suit his beliefs and all.

I hear that all the time, yet Sunday after Sunday, year in and year out since 1956 we worship God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. We worship him in our services every Sunday.

We also use the KJV of the bible like everyone else.

 

[devin553344]

We have serious foundational scriptures that lead us to believe in Jesus Christ the way we do.

You have serious foundational scriptures that lead you to believe in the Jesus Christ the way you do.

The bible provides ample scriptures for both of us. However, there is just one Jesus Christ and we both follow him, but have a different outlook as to his nature and his relationship with God the Father. His Father and our Father, his God and our God. (John 20:17)

This is the perfect scripture to try out our different outlooks. Do you believe that Jesus has a God?

Thanks for the reply. I believe Jesus was always God. That's what I see in the bible. I don't believe he was a spirit child of God. I do believe that His body was created by the Holy Spirit in Marys womb.

 

[devin553344]

I hear that all the time, yet Sunday after Sunday, year in and year out since 1956 we worship God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. We worship him in our services every Sunday.

We also use the KJV of the bible like everyone else.

Do you substitute scripture in the KJV with Joseph Smith translations?

 

[Ironhold]

Do you substitute scripture in the KJV with Joseph Smith translations?

You yourself said that the KJV material is in the footnotes and a section in the back.

 

[dzheremi]

This is an interesting thing about a prophet of God. Our current prophet, Russell M. Nelson, told the church that Jesus Christ was not pleased that we were willing to use nicknames that did not refer to him. Mormons, LDS, Latter-day Saints, all refer to the people of the church and by-step the founder of his church. Therefore we are not interested in a brand name, we are more interested in pleasing Jesus Christ who is the head of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I will on occasion still use

I understand the point -- your organization wants to emphasize the "Jesus Christ" in its name as the focus of your religion -- I just don't think it's likely to result in a massive switch from Mormon to the preferred name among non-Mormons, or if it does it will be along the same awkward lines as when Prince was called "The Artist Formerly Known as Prince" because he changed his name to some weird symbol. People went along with it to the extent they had to for legal reasons and reasons of respect for his wishes, but they still called him Prince the entire time, too. So I think you're likely to see "Church of Jesus Christ (a.k.a., Latter Day Saints, a.k.a. Mormons)" until most people get tired of all that and just go back to saying "Mormons".

 

[Rescued One]

I hear that all the time, yet Sunday after Sunday, year in and year out since 1956 we worship God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. We worship him in our services every Sunday.

We also use the KJV of the bible like everyone else.

You may have been six years old or younger in 1956. But, regardless, your leaders didn't even know who the members should worship.

Alma 11
26 And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?
27 And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.
28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
29 And he answered, No.
30 Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?
31 And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me.

I asked my devout returned missionary, temple married home teacher, why the Nephites worshiped Jesus if we weren't supposed to. He said, "Because Jesus was with them."

Mosiah 15
1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh[Jesus] becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

IOW, the Son is flesh, the Father is Spirit.

In 1982, Apostle Bruce R. McConkie gave a devotional talk at BYU. He said,
"I shall speak of our relationship with the Lord and of the true fellowship all Saints should have with the Father. I shall set forth what we must believe relative to the Father and the Son in order to gain eternal life.
"I shall expound the doctrine of the Church relative to what our relationship should be to all members of the Godhead and do so in plainness and simplicity so that none need misunderstand or be led astray by other voices..."
Our Relationship with the Lord - Bruce R. McConkie - BYU Speeches

 

[Rescued One]

Yeah I read this part and stopped: "When our Father in Heaven presented his plan of salvation, Jesus sustained the plan and his part in it, giving the glory to God, to whom it properly belonged."

Indicating they didn't believe Jesus was God. So I read the rest of it. But then it says this: "President Joseph Fielding Smith explained that “the ‘God of peace,’ who according to the scriptures is to bruise Satan, is Jesus Christ.”"

The two statements are contradictory. Unless I am to say that Jesus is only the "God of Peace". Which is open to interpretation. So Jesus was our brother spirit and Lucifers also and Jesus was made into "the God of Peace" to the LDS church? What's that even mean?

I'm trying to figure out how you feel LDS Jesus is the Christian God?

May I interject? Mormons teach that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three distinct gods. The Father is the greatest, the Son is second who is greater than the Holy Ghost. , The Holy Ghost comes in third.

Doctrine and Covenants 130
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
23 A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him.

I have multiple lesson manuals which I've quoted on CF since I became a CF member about 16 1/2 years ago. This conversation ought to go to another thread and maybe I should start a thread giving links to lesson manuals. However, those links go to lds.org which they plan to change.

 

[dzheremi]

I really appreciate your ability to provide a comparison between Mormonism and Christianity from a former Mormon perspective, Phoebe Ann. (Before our resident Mormons go there) It's not that the status of "former Mormon" automatically makes a person credible, but I know that you share as much information from Mormon sources as you can find and scan, which is really great.

It must be difficult to be Mormon when you have to wiggle your way out of from under what your own prophets (including Joseph Smith) and other leaders have said in an attempt to make Mormonism seem more Christian than it is. Or rather, to make it seem Christian when it isn't.