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A manuscript issue with the ending of the book of Mark

Berserk

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Now KJV Only types are resorting to numerological nonsense to protect the bogus ending of Mark! Consider:

(1) 16:9-20 is missing in key early manuscripts.
(2) One early manuscript actually identifies the forger, Aristo of Pella whose forgery got into the text used by Irenaeus some 20 years later.
(3) Mark would hardly leave the silence of the women at the tomb unexplained and then assume that they reported the good news to the disciples.
(4) Jesus would hardly identify snake-handling and poison drinking as "signs" of the true believer, as oppsed to ,say the fruit of the Spirit.
 
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Always in His Presence

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Because the verses are missing in earlier manuscripts doesn’t mean the verses were not written. It means they are missing.

It is not that complicated later manuscripts contained the verses.
 
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Berserk

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Because the verses are missing in earlier manuscripts doesn’t mean the verses were not written. It means they are missing.

It is not that complicated later manuscripts contained the verses.
A few Bible scholars speculate that there was another ending to Mark that got lost, thus inspiring the 3 different forged endings to fill in the void.
 
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Look at the manuscript vaticanus. It has blank section at the end of Mark where the ending fits perfectly in.

There was a lot of pruning that went on in some of the Alexandrian type manuscripts. Scholars won't ever admit to that, but it becomes apparent once you see how most of those so-called "later additions" tend to fit so well in and agree doctrinally once inserted. So I agree with the quote from Irenaeus.
My guess is that the Alexandrians of the 4th Century had issues with signs and wonders in the church. I think they had developed a cessationist mentality, and that is why the scribes there omitted the ending of Mark to suit their theology.
 
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ARBITER01

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My guess is that the Alexandrians of the 4th Century had issues with signs and wonders in the church. I think they had developed a cessationist mentality, and that is why the scribes there omitted the ending of Mark to suit their theology.
That,... and maybe some outright corruption from a few overzealous believers. The section in 1 Corinthians dealing with the women has been questioned by a few scholars as a very early addition that they presume some zealous jewish believer added in the margin, that made it's way into the later manuscripts when copied.

Look at the ending of Matthew also. None of our Apostles abided by the immersion formula that supposedly Jesus stated in the manuscripts, but an early church father named Eusebius quotes an entirely different one 17 times with the name of Jesus instead centuries ahead of our earliest manuscripts or papyrus.

To be honest, I'm happy that we've had so many folks trying to get to the earliest manuscripts, what I'm not happy about is how this has created two different bibles. Rather than do the hard work and make an eclectic text like they always did in the past, they've separated them and created an unneeded argument in the process.
 
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ARBITER01

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Check this out Oscarr,....

31 Being therefore, inherently a Prophet, and knowing that GOD swore unto him by an oath, that out of the fruit of his loins, [according to the flesh, He would raise up] One to be seated upon his throne,

This is in the first chapter of Acts. The section I highlighted came from the Syriac Peshitta version. Tell me it doesn't fit right in and agree with the surrounding text!?!

This is what I mean by an Eclectic text.
 
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Berserk

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One of the established laws of Text Criticism is that the shorter reading is generally to be preferred.
This is important because in the Greek NT manuscripts there are roughly 400,000 variant readings and scribes tried to clarify or improve on the text by addition. One common form of textual addition is conflation: faced with alternate readings in different manuscripts, scribes were often at a loss as to which Greek word was original, so they included both. The 2 largest bogus additions are the ending in Mark (16:9-20) and the wonderful story of the woman taken in adultery (John 7:53-8:11), which seems to have been transferred to John from the Gospel of Hebrews. I believe the latter story is a true story from accurate oral tradition.
 
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Check this out Oscarr,....

31 Being therefore, inherently a Prophet, and knowing that GOD swore unto him by an oath, that out of the fruit of his loins, [according to the flesh, He would raise up] One to be seated upon his throne,

This is in the first chapter of Acts. The section I highlighted came from the Syriac Peshitta version. Tell me it doesn't fit right in and agree with the surrounding text!?!

This is what I mean by an Eclectic text.
I read the verse in the 2nd chapter of Acts. The "One to be seated upon his throne" is in the margin as text in an alternative manuscript. But there is no significant alteration in meaning. The part that you have outlined is basically the same as in the NKJV. So I don't see any difference in the meaning of the text, other than just another way of saying the same thing.

As far as the reference to baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, I don't see a problem because the formula is incidental. The significance of baptism is a public demonstration that the believer is identifying himself with the death and resurrection of Christ. If I was going to baptise someone, I would follow the example that I see in the New Testament, and baptise them in the Name of Jesus. In essence, being baptised in the Name of Jesus is functionally the same as being baptised in the Names of the Father and the Holy Ghost, because Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Jesus, and the Holy Spirit came out from Jesus. We should baptise in the Name of Jesus because God has given Jesus the Name above every other name, and He is the principal focus of our faith.

As far as the ending of Mark is concerned, I think that there is a mixture of narrative and metaphor. Speaking with new tongues is consistent with related Scriptures (obscure Scripture interpreted by clear Scripture), casting out demons is consistent with the examples given by Jesus' ministry, and that we can do the same works as He did, and this was demonstrated by Paul and the servant girl. Laying hands on the sick for healing is supported by James saying to call upon the elders of the church to lay hands on the sick.

In some sense, the handling of snakes is supported by Paul accidentally encountering a snake on Malta. Note that the encounter was accidental and not deliberate. The deliberate handling of snakes is not supported in the New Testament, so I was take the statement in Mark to be metaphor in relation to Jesus saying that we have the authority to step on snakes and scorpions, obviously referring to the spiritual enemies of the Gospel, and that we resist the devil and he has to flee from us. Drinking poison is also metaphor in my view, because false doctrine and teaching is poison to the believer. It is like rat poison, which is 99.6% good food for rats, but it is the .4% that is the poison that kills the rats dead. Therefore a toxic heresy may contain 99.6% good teaching, but that hidden .4% of heresy may be a killer to those who are drawn into it. You will find that most of the cults contain good and useful teaching about how to live a good and holy life, but there is that percentage of teaching that is fatal to one's spiritual life in Christ. A cult that might teach 90% good and useful material which we all need, but refuses to accept the divinity of Christ, can just as lead a person to hell as belonging to an New Age occult spiritualist church. There is a church that is 99.9% good and gives some great teaching about end time events and healthy eating, but has just enough legalism to deny the effectiveness of what Jesus did for us on Cross. This is what I think the reference is talking about. A genuine believer can be hoodwinked into joining a cult that teaches 99% good stuff, not knowing that there is "poison in the pot", and when the Holy Spirit shows him his error and quickly parts company with the cult, the poison does not do any damage to him.

Anyway, these are my thoughts.
 
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ARBITER01

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I read the verse in the 2nd chapter of Acts. The "One to be seated upon his throne" is in the margin as text in an alternative manuscript. But there is no significant alteration in meaning. The part that you have outlined is basically the same as in the NKJV. So I don't see any difference in the meaning of the text, other than just another way of saying the same thing.

As far as the reference to baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, I don't see a problem because the formula is incidental. The significance of baptism is a public demonstration that the believer is identifying himself with the death and resurrection of Christ. If I was going to baptise someone, I would follow the example that I see in the New Testament, and baptise them in the Name of Jesus. In essence, being baptised in the Name of Jesus is functionally the same as being baptised in the Names of the Father and the Holy Ghost, because Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Jesus, and the Holy Spirit came out from Jesus. We should baptise in the Name of Jesus because God has given Jesus the Name above every other name, and He is the principal focus of our faith.

As far as the ending of Mark is concerned, I think that there is a mixture of narrative and metaphor. Speaking with new tongues is consistent with related Scriptures (obscure Scripture interpreted by clear Scripture), casting out demons is consistent with the examples given by Jesus' ministry, and that we can do the same works as He did, and this was demonstrated by Paul and the servant girl. Laying hands on the sick for healing is supported by James saying to call upon the elders of the church to lay hands on the sick.

In some sense, the handling of snakes is supported by Paul accidentally encountering a snake on Malta. Note that the encounter was accidental and not deliberate. The deliberate handling of snakes is not supported in the New Testament, so I was take the statement in Mark to be metaphor in relation to Jesus saying that we have the authority to step on snakes and scorpions, obviously referring to the spiritual enemies of the Gospel, and that we resist the devil and he has to flee from us. Drinking poison is also metaphor in my view, because false doctrine and teaching is poison to the believer. It is like rat poison, which is 99.6% good food for rats, but it is the .4% that is the poison that kills the rats dead. Therefore a toxic heresy may contain 99.6% good teaching, but that hidden .4% of heresy may be a killer to those who are drawn into it. You will find that most of the cults contain good and useful teaching about how to live a good and holy life, but there is that percentage of teaching that is fatal to one's spiritual life in Christ. A cult that might teach 90% good and useful material which we all need, but refuses to accept the divinity of Christ, can just as lead a person to hell as belonging to an New Age occult spiritualist church. There is a church that is 99.9% good and gives some great teaching about end time events and healthy eating, but has just enough legalism to deny the effectiveness of what Jesus did for us on Cross. This is what I think the reference is talking about. A genuine believer can be hoodwinked into joining a cult that teaches 99% good stuff, not knowing that there is "poison in the pot", and when the Holy Spirit shows him his error and quickly parts company with the cult, the poison does not do any damage to him.

Anyway, these are my thoughts.

How about another example Oscarr?....

I've been doing some editing in Hebrews lately,.....

36 For ye have need of patience, that after doing the will of GOD, ye may receive the promise.

37 "For yet a little while, The-One coming shalt arrive and will not delay.”

38 "But the righteous shall live by [My] faith,” “and if he draweth back,” “My soul hath no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those drawing back unto destruction, but of faith unto the saving of the soul.

In particular, I was looking at verse 38 and the different ways it was presented in the Greek manuscripts,...

Hebrews 10:38:
TEXT: "·but my righteous-one shall live by faith"
EVIDENCE: p46 S A H* 33 1175 1739 most lat most vg one cop(north) cop(south)
TRANSLATIONS: ASV RSV NASV NIV NEB TEV ("righteous people")
RANK: C

NOTES: "·but the righteous-one shall live by faith"
EVIDENCE: p13 Dc Hc I K P Psi 81 104 614 630 1241 1881 2495 Byz Lect two lat some vg syr(pal) some cop(north)
TRANSLATIONS: KJV ASVn NIVn? ("the righteous shall")

OTHER: "·but the righteous-one shall live by my faith"
EVIDENCE: D* two lat syr(p,h)

The OT text that this is quoting is from Habakuk,....

Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul is puffed up, it is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

It looks like the more correct wording of this particular section would come from the later manuscripts, if the NT is to reflect the OT, like it does in the Syriac and Latin translation from the Greek. So,.... I place the early papyrus section in first, with brackets on the later section to identify it as such,...

38 "But the righteous shall live by [My] faith,” “and if he draweth back,” “My soul hath no pleasure in him.”

Now it's correct.

In my opinion, this is another example of how the earliest text was pruning sections out of it. I'm using the earliest possible text but correcting it in the process. No Greek text is without error, they are copies.

There are many more examples of this.
 
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ARBITER01

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Did you catch the mistake in the papyrus Oscarr? Look at it again,...

Hebrews 10:38:
TEXT: "·but my righteous-one shall live by faith"
EVIDENCE: p46 S A H* 33 1175 1739 most lat most vg one cop(north) cop(south)
TRANSLATIONS: ASV RSV NASV NIV NEB TEV ("righteous people")
RANK: C

NOTES: "·but the righteous-one shall live by faith"
EVIDENCE: p13 Dc Hc I K P Psi 81 104 614 630 1241 1881 2495 Byz Lect two lat some vg syr(pal) some cop(north)
TRANSLATIONS: KJV ASVn NIVn? ("the righteous shall")

OTHER: "·but the righteous-one shall live by my faith"
EVIDENCE: D* two lat syr(p,h)

Two of the early evidences presented are both wrong. The one bit of evidence that actually relates to the OT quote is the later evidence, not the early stuff. The copy mistakes in the Greek become apparent even in the earliest papyrus. This is why textual criticism can only go so far, it's has to be looked at doctrinally also by somebody, and most likely that person will not be some sort of scholar worried about being in the clique.
 
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Did you catch the mistake in the papyrus Oscarr? Look at it again,...

Hebrews 10:38:
TEXT: "·but my righteous-one shall live by faith"
EVIDENCE: p46 S A H* 33 1175 1739 most lat most vg one cop(north) cop(south)
TRANSLATIONS: ASV RSV NASV NIV NEB TEV ("righteous people")
RANK: C

NOTES: "·but the righteous-one shall live by faith"
EVIDENCE: p13 Dc Hc I K P Psi 81 104 614 630 1241 1881 2495 Byz Lect two lat some vg syr(pal) some cop(north)
TRANSLATIONS: KJV ASVn NIVn? ("the righteous shall")

OTHER: "·but the righteous-one shall live by my faith"
EVIDENCE: D* two lat syr(p,h)

Two of the early evidences presented are both wrong. The one bit of evidence that actually relates to the OT quote is the later evidence, not the early stuff. The copy mistakes in the Greek become apparent even in the earliest papyrus. This is why textual criticism can only go so far, it's has to be looked at doctrinally also by somebody, and most likely that person will not be some sort of scholar worried about being in the clique.
I can see that the third reference implies that the righteous person lives by the faith of God instead of his own faith. I also looked up Galatians 2:20 in the Bible Hub interlinear Greek which could be read the same way: Galatians 2:20 Interlinear: with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh -- in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;

That could imply that the faith comes from the Son of God, which looks like it could be consistent with the third reference.
It prompts an interesting discussion.
 
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ARBITER01

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I can see that the third reference implies that the righteous person lives by the faith of God instead of his own faith. I also looked up Galatians 2:20 in the Bible Hub interlinear Greek which could be read the same way: Galatians 2:20 Interlinear: with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh -- in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;

That could imply that the faith comes from the Son of God, which looks like it could be consistent with the third reference.
It prompts an interesting discussion.
Yep,..,that's the exact passage I was relating this to! Good catch!

It is the faith "OF" The Son of GOD, not our faith "in" Him. We are given a measure of faith by Him that must grow. It's not something that we inherently have.

To me this is a doctrinal issue in the manuscripts,... but that is not something that any of the modern day scholars are even remotely interested in. Not any that I've seen over the last 20 years or so.
 
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Yep,..,that's the exact passage I was relating this to! Good catch!

It is the faith "OF" The Son of GOD, not our faith "in" Him. We are given a measure of faith by Him that must grow. It's not something that we inherently have.

To me this is a doctrinal issue in the manuscripts,... but that is not something that any of the modern day scholars are even remotely interested in. Not any that I've seen over the last 20 years or so.
Actually, it is part of Puritan theology, that in order for a person to be converted to Christ, he needs to be given "saving faith" in order to believe the Gospel in a way in order to make it operable in his life. So in that sense, the required faith for a person to be saved has to come as a free gift from God. Joseph Alleine, the author of "An Alarm to the Unconverted" teaches that to be fully converted to Christ, one must earnestly seek God for the Holy Spirit to work the necessary transformation in him.

Here is another Scripture that comes to mind: "By grace are we saved through faith; not of ourselves, but is the gift of God; not of works lest any should boast." What this tells me is that salvation and the faith to receive it is the gift of God to us, and is not achieved by anything we can do, but to ask for it, and to seek God until we receive it. This is in line with Phil 4:5-6: "Everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God, and the peace of God shall keep your hearts and mind through Jesus Christ."
 
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ARBITER01

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Actually, it is part of Puritan theology, that in order for a person to be converted to Christ, he needs to be given "saving faith" in order to believe the Gospel in a way in order to make it operable in his life. So in that sense, the required faith for a person to be saved has to come as a free gift from God. Joseph Alleine, the author of "An Alarm to the Unconverted" teaches that to be fully converted to Christ, one must earnestly seek God for the Holy Spirit to work the necessary transformation in him.

Here is another Scripture that comes to mind: "By grace are we saved through faith; not of ourselves, but is the gift of God; not of works lest any should boast." What this tells me is that salvation and the faith to receive it is the gift of God to us, and is not achieved by anything we can do, but to ask for it, and to seek God until we receive it. This is in line with Phil 4:5-6: "Everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God, and the peace of God shall keep your hearts and mind through Jesus Christ."
When these things are looked at doctrinally they can to tell a different story then just being later additions.

How about another in Acts? Chapter 15 first,....


23 Writing [these things] by their hand: "The Apostles and the elders and the brethren, unto the brethren out of the Gentiles at Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings!

24 Forasmuch then as we heard that certain-ones coming out from amongst us troubled ye with words, unsettling thy(P) souls, [saying ye must be circumcised and keep The Law], unto whom we gave no such commandment,


Now notice,..... the mention of how Gentiles are not commanded to follow the law is cut out in the early texts. The commandment is not identified and the recipients are left assuming grammatically what the subject of the commandment was.

Now watch this over in Chapter 21,....


24 And all shalt know that those things whereof they have been informed concerning thee art nothing, but thou thyself art observing and maintaining The Law.

25 But concerning those having believed of the Gentiles, we sent an epistle, giving judgment [that they observe no such thing, except] to guard themselves from idol-sacrifices, and from blood, and from anything strangled, and from fornication."


Again, notice how a section in the early texts has been removed that forbid Gentiles from following the law of Moses in the letter. The subject here was the previous verse I highlighted in red about Paul appearing to be a Jewish believer before them, so that they thought he followed the law of Moses. Grammatically it poses a problem again.

Now looking at this doctrinally, is there not an agenda possibly being identified here?
 
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When these things are looked at doctrinally they can to tell a different story then just being later additions.

How about another in Acts? Chapter 15 first,....


23 Writing [these things] by their hand: "The Apostles and the elders and the brethren, unto the brethren out of the Gentiles at Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings!

24 Forasmuch then as we heard that certain-ones coming out from amongst us troubled ye with words, unsettling thy(P) souls, [saying ye must be circumcised and keep The Law], unto whom we gave no such commandment,


Now notice,..... the mention of how Gentiles are not commanded to follow the law is cut out in the early texts. The commandment is not identified and the recipients are left assuming grammatically what the subject of the commandment was.

Now watch this over in Chapter 21,....


24 And all shalt know that those things whereof they have been informed concerning thee art nothing, but thou thyself art observing and maintaining The Law.

25 But concerning those having believed of the Gentiles, we sent an epistle, giving judgment [that they observe no such thing, except] to guard themselves from idol-sacrifices, and from blood, and from anything strangled, and from fornication."


Again, notice how a section in the early texts has been removed that forbid Gentiles from following the law of Moses in the letter. The subject here was the previous verse I highlighted in red about Paul appearing to be a Jewish believer before them, so that they thought he followed the law of Moses. Grammatically it poses a problem again.

Now looking at this doctrinally, is there not an agenda possibly being identified here?
I'm not sure what to think about that. Paul did say that when he was with the Jews he was a Jew and when with the Gentiles, a Gentile, so that he could be all things to all men. There are other Scriptures that make it clear that our salvation is apart from the Law, otherwise grace is no longer grace. But Sanctification could be another issue, involving repentance, which is actually what we cease doing. This makes the moral side of the Law principles for our education as an indication of what holiness looks like.
 
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I'm not sure what to think about that. Paul did say that when he was with the Jews he was a Jew and when with the Gentiles, a Gentile, so that he could be all things to all men. There are other Scriptures that make it clear that our salvation is apart from the Law, otherwise grace is no longer grace. But Sanctification could be another issue, involving repentance, which is actually what we cease doing. This makes the moral side of the Law principles for our education as an indication of what holiness looks like.
Maybe re-read what I posted Oscarr. I don't think you're catching onto the issue I'm presenting. It's not about Paul.
 
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Maybe re-read what I posted Oscarr. I don't think you're catching onto the issue I'm presenting. It's not about Paul.
I'm probably missing your point. I could see where you were implying that salvation is not according to our faith, but faith that has been bestowed on us by God's grace. But I had difficulty seeing what you were getting at in your second reference about whether we should be complying with the Law or not.
 
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I'm probably missing your point. I could see where you were implying that salvation is not according to our faith, but faith that has been bestowed on us by God's grace. But I had difficulty seeing what you were getting at in your second reference about whether we should be complying with the Law or not.
As far as I remember, you and I both agreed that the law of Moses had been fulfilled by Jesus on the cross and the new law of Christ took effect at His death.

It seemed strange how 2 mentions of the letter in 2 separate chapters each had that section pruned out denoting how the Apostles decided against us Gentiles observing the law. In my mind it's too specific of a pruning to just be an addition that someone kept trying to add in, like scholars would have us believe.
 
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As far as I remember, you and I both agreed that the law of Moses had been fulfilled by Jesus on the cross and the new law of Christ took effect at His death.

It seemed strange how 2 mentions of the letter in 2 separate chapters each had that section pruned out denoting how the Apostles decided against us Gentiles observing the law. In my mind it's too specific of a pruning to just be an addition that someone kept trying to add in, like scholars would have us believe.
That is how I understand it, and there are plenty of New Testament Scriptures to support it. It looks like that some manuscripts have been redacted to support someone's individual theology.
 
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That is how I understand it, and there are plenty of New Testament Scriptures to support it. It looks like that some manuscripts have been redacted to support someone's individual theology.
That's what was being shown to me by The Holy Spirit. Our earliest witnesses to scripture are still copies no matter what, so there is always a possibility of copy errors or even outright doctrinal changes, as I believe these two sections I pointed out depict.

Now that's not to say that every change or difference seen in the Critical text is an automatic pruning, but there are certainly areas of it that can be found within the texts, in my opinion.
 
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