A logic question about Iesa (Jesus)

[nadir]

peace upon those who follow the right path
dear readers and members !
thanks for this great forum .
I'm very happy to be a member in this forum .
I would like to know why Iesa(Jesus)(peace be upon him) was crucified although you believe in him as a God ?
why didn't he protect himself ?
don't we supplicate Allah (God) to save us ?
why do some people consider Iesa (Jesus) as a God and at the same time they believe that he was crucified ?
here is discrepancy !
to get out of this discrepancy ; they should believe in one matter :
1.either he was crucified ; in this case it's unimaginable to be a God .
OR
2.he is a God ; and in this case it's unimaginable to be crucified .

kindly ;choose case 1 or case 2 to discuss .
take into your consideration that I don't take the 2 cases for granted

 

[Philip]

why didn't he protect himself ?

He gave Himself up to save us. It was the ultimate act of love, that He lay down His life that we might live.

to get out of this discrepancy ; they should believe in one matter :
1.either he was crucified ; in this case it's unimaginable to be a God .
OR
2.he is a God ; and in this case it's unimaginable to be crucified .

What is the discrepency? I see none. The Word became flesh. That flesh died. I see no discrepency.

 

[nadir]

He gave Himself up to save us. It was the ultimate act of love, that He lay down His life that we might live.



What is the discrepency? I see none. The Word became flesh. That flesh died. I see no discrepency.

why did he give up himself ? why didn't he protect himself and us ?
who does save you ? isn't He the God ?
since he gave up himself instead of protecting himself and us ; this is an apparent evidence of His weakness .
so ; the God must be strong .
I agree with you that the Word became flesh ; but don't you see that the God must be alive and eternal to save us .
thanks

 

[Reformationist]

why did he give up himself ? why didn't he protect himself and us ?
who does save you ? isn't He the God ?
since he gave up himself instead of protecting himself and us ; this is an apparent evidence of His weakness .
so ; the God must be strong .
I agree with you that the Word became flesh ; but don't you see that the God must be alive and eternal to save us .
thanks

He gave Himself up because it was the very reason that He was incarnated and walked among us, that is, to die a "spotless lamb." Jesus' becoming flesh and being crucified isn't a sign of His weakness. It's a sign of the love of the Godhead. Every single thing that Christ did was for the glory of His Father in Heaven. He came to do the Will of His Father. But make no mistake, He did not come grudgingly. It pleased Him to come and fulfill the Will of God, even unto death.

As for His strength, Jesus is very clear about the power that those who crucified Him had over Him. He told them clearly that they only had power over Him because the Father gave it to them to serve His purpose.

You see nadir, the divine Plan of God is all a product of His holiness. When man fell from Grace he was in need of a redeemer. God could not just arbitrarily ignore the Law that He had instituted. On the contrary, God Himself is bound by His own nature. He, as a Just God, must be just. He had told Adam and Eve that the wage of sin is death. If He just came back and said, "You know what? I changed my mind. Sin doesn't beget death. Sin begets chocolate cake" it would be sinful. So, in order that He may "legally" have mercy on His creation, His justice and His wrath must be appeased. All people are sinners so it would be impossile for any of us to atone for our own sins, much less another's sins. So, God sent Jesus. You see, Jesus HAD TO die. He had to. If He did not die then no one would be saved. Not only did He have to die, He had to live a sinless life. He had to fulfill the covenant of works that God had originally established with Adam.

So, Jesus coming incarnate among the creation of God and dying a spotless lamb does not show Him to be weak. It shows Him to be God.

God bless

 

[Philip]

since he gave up himself instead of protecting himself and us ; this is an apparent evidence of His weakness .

Giving Himself up was not an act of weakness. It was the ultimate act of love. Christ showed the greatest strength in enduring death at the will of the Father. It would have been weak for Him to turn away from this. It would have been weak to defend Himself. Christ Himself testifies to this:

Matthew 26:52-54 (RSVA)
52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?
54 But how then should the scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?"

You are making the same accusations as those who crucified the Lord:

Matthew 27:41-43 (RSVA)
41 And those who passed by derided him, wagging their heads
40 and saying, "You who would destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross."
41 So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders, mocked him, saying,
42 "He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him.
43 He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, 'I am the Son of God.'"

Such accusations were prophesized, as were the people who would make them.

Wisdom 2:17-22 (RSVA)
17Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life;
18 for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.
19 Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance.
20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected."
21 Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray, for their wickedness blinded them,
22 and they did not know the secret purposes of God, nor hope for the wages of holiness, nor discern the prize for blameless souls;

the God must be strong .

I suggest that you misunderstand what it means to be strong. Strength is not defending one's self against all attackers. Strength is doing the will of the Father, no matter what the cost to one's self.

 

[Rafael]

He (Jesus) laid down His life for our sins and took our place in being judged for them. We all deserved to die, but He loved us so much that He gave His life for ours.
God's strength and power cannot really be compared to a just a man. God's power and strength is shown by His creation which is so vast and wonderful. He has shown us that the greatest of eternal things is love, which is in giving and that no love is greater than when a man lays down his life for another. God is love.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

1 Corinthians 13:13 and now there doth remain faith, hope, love—these three; and the greatest of these is love.

May I suggest a book written by a man born and raised as a Muslim but now a Christian. His insights on both religions are very good. His name is M.Ali and the books name is "Islam Reviewed". It is available at Amazon.com and inexpensive at only about seven dollars.

 

[jayswife29]

nadir,
I am not clear on what your beliefs are. What do you believe in? and what answers are you looking for?

 

[tigersnare]

nadir,
I am not clear on what your beliefs are. What do you believe in? and what answers are you looking for?

I'm pretty positive he's a muslim, a muslim guy I know was also taught Jesus was weak for dying the way he did.


They don't understand, Jesus opend up the door for us to approach God, without his sacrifice we would not be able to come know God, and we would all be doomed to hell because we were all born wicked sinners.

 

[LadyHeaven77]

Why would u say such a thing ? He didnt protect himself because he was to bizzy protecting us. SO u dont believe in God ?And if u do believe in him than u should have no reason to question him.I bet u wasn't questioning him when u was having yourself a good time! :o


"I Existed From All Eternity,And BEHOLD I Am HERE,And I Shall Exist Till The End Of Time,For My Being Has No End".

 

[Reformationist]

Why would u say such a thing ? He didnt protect himself because he was to bizzy protecting us. SO u dont believe in God ?And if u do believe in him than u should have no reason to question him.I bet u wasn't questioning him when u was having yourself a good time! :o


"I Existed From All Eternity,And BEHOLD I Am HERE,And I Shall Exist Till The End Of Time,For My Being Has No End".

Ummm...LadyHeaven77, who are you talking to? Nadir is obviously not a Christian and he is trying to find out why we believe in a God who let Himself be killed.

It's a reasonable question and should be answered in a spirit of loving kindness and a desire for nadir to understand who God was and why He came to us and died in our place when we were His enemies.

I hope what appears to be vehemence is, in truth, a zealous love for God. I also hope that we can be charitable in sharing the Truth of what the Gospel says of our Lord and Savior to one who has obviously not learned about Him as we have.

God bless

 

[Rafael]

Ummm...LadyHeaven77, who are you talking to? Nadir is obviously not a Christian and he is trying to find out why we believe in a God who let Himself be killed.

It's a reasonable question and should be answered in a spirit of loving kindness and a desire for nadir to understand who God was and why He came to us and died in our place when we were His enemies.

I hope what appears to be vehemence is, in truth, a zealous love for God. I also hope that we can be charitable in sharing the Truth of what the Gospel says of our Lord and Savior to one who has obviously not learned about Him as we have.

God bless

Amen, we are to love all people and be willing to share the truth in kindness and gentleness of spirit.

2 Tim. 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Was Jesus weak? Of course He was:

The other Gods were strong but Thou wast weak
They rode but Thou didst stumble to a throne
But to our wounds only God's wounds can speak
And not a God has wounds but Thou alone.
-Edward Shillito

This weakness was chosen - Our Lord could have called upon legions of angels to save Himself, but He chose not to.

The Incarnation is God taking on human weakness. It makes no sense at all that through weakness God defeats sin and death. But so He does.

Nadir's question is nothing new - the crowds shouted it at the Crucifixion. It has always been a stumbling block. Folk want - I want! - a God who is always strong, and just sorts things out. But God is clearly not like that. When bad things happen, they happen. They happened to Him. He did not magically stop them.

I do not know why God is like this, only that He is.

But there is a tension. There is another thread in Christianity that sees Our Lord as strong, even on the Cross. He is strong because although He fully embraces death and truly dies, it cannot defeat Him as it does us, and so He rises from the grave, bringing the power of resurrection and life beyond despair and hopelessness.

Holding these in tension is something we work towards. Sometimes we see the suffering Christ, in this rotten world with us. Sometimes we see Christus Victor, risen from death. Eventually we come to integrate them - the cross is the throne; Christ's death is life.

 

[Serapha]

I would like to know why Iesa(Jesus)(peace be upon him) was crucified although you believe in him as a God ?

Jesus Christ was crucified because the only means of atonement to the Jewish faith was a blood sacrifice. In the Old Testament, the blood of animals was sacrificed to atone for the sins of man. But, when Christ's blood was spilt through His crucifixion and death, there was one final blood sacrifice made as the final atonement for the sins of all the world for all time.

why didn't he protect himself ?

Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man, not part God and part man. Jesus Christ didn't need "protection". In reality, Christ just changed from being the "Word" and "Wisdom" of the Godhead into the incarnation of man, but He was still the "Word" and "Wisdom", and when the body of Christ was killed, He became the "Living Word" as the resurrected Christ. What did Jesus need protection from?

don't we supplicate Allah (God) to save us ?

No, Christians ask Jesus Christ (God) to save them. Jesus identified the first means of being reconciled to God without having to have a blood atonement again and again for our sins. When a Christian is standing in judgment before God, the Christian will have an advocate there to testify that the Christian is redeemed of sin through Him, that advocate is Jesus Christ.

why do some people consider Iesa (Jesus) as a God and at the same time they believe that he was crucified ?

Because everything about Jesus Christ as a fulfillment of the prophecies given by God. God could give the prophecy because He knew the prophecies would be fulfilled.

to get out of this discrepancy ; they should believe in one matter :
1.either he was crucified ; in this case it's unimaginable to be a God .
OR
2.he is a God ; and in this case it's unimaginable to be crucified .

To answer #1. Christ was crucified as the physical Son of God, but He was God before, during, and after the time spent as the incarnate Christ. Only God can forgive the sins of man, and Jesus Christ did that while on this earth.

To answer #2. Jesus Christ was the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, but in the middle of the beginning and the end is a parenthesis of time which is the 33 years Christ spent on this earth as the incarnate man who was willing to die for the sins of mankind. The rest of "the beginning and the end" is without time measurement. Time is a dimension for this world, established by the rising and setting of the sun on a revolving earth. God and the Living Word don't have the limitations of "time". If you cannot imagine God without "time" then you cannot imagine Jesus Christ crucified in "time".

God is a supernatural God with dimensions that our human mind cannot begin to comprehend.

~malaka~