A Letter from hell-Please Watch

[SonicBOOM]

(this quote concerns my comment a few pages back that portions of the Bible could be considered a scare-tactic.)

I'm even going to ignore the obvious, Hell. Look at Leviticus 26:19 14 and on. It is more or less a page and a half of God telling the Israelites all of the absolutely terrible things he will do to them if they disobey him. How is this not ascare tactic?

I don't beleive that levitical law was the actul law of God, here's why. When Jesus entered the scene we hardly heard anything like what levitical law commanded, infact Jesus was full of compassion and mercy and often rebuked the Pharasees for trying to obey what the levitical law commanded. Jesus is God right? Than something is a-miss here. why would God now be opposed to the very law he supposevally created? The answer is found here:

Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

ok so whats up here? not only does Jesus oppose levitical law, but he also says that some of the law was written because men's hearts were hard. Is it possable that levitical law was more the law of the Jews and not the law of God? The law of God has been written upon our hearts.... so if we listen to that inner law we can see that something is amiss with the levitical law

I'm not saying we should disobey God's law, I'm just saying that perhaps the "law of God" is more the spirit of the law and what God writes upon our subconceince about the nature of right and wrong. C. S. Lewis has alot to say about this.

 

[garfieldthecatman]

Agreed. He does not say those who do not believe will burn. He says those who sin will burn. Those who do not believe will not be saved

Romans 3:23 "Everyone has sinned and fallen short of God's glorious standard..." But this is good news because "...all need to be made right with God by his grace, which is a free gift. The need to be made free from sin through Jesus Christ. God sent him to die in our place to take away our sins. We receive forgiveness through faith in the blood of Jesus' death. This showed that God always does what is right and fair, as in the past when he was patient and did not punish his people for their sins." Romans 3-24:25
This video is neither a scare tactic nor inspirational...it's simple biblical fact, and is left up to the viewer on how they respond.

 

[SonicBOOM]

Romans 3:23 "Everyone has sinned and fallen short of God's glorious standard..." But this is good news because "...all need to be made right with God by his grace, which is a free gift. The need to be made free from sin through Jesus Christ. God sent him to die in our place to take away our sins. We receive forgiveness through faith in the blood of Jesus' death. This showed that God always does what is right and fair, as in the past when he was patient and did not punish his people for their sins." Romans 3-24:25
This video is neither a scare tactic nor inspirational...it's simple biblical fact, and is left up to the viewer on how they respond.

yes but how does one actully become right with God? We had a speaker at this church one time who pretty much defined being free from the law as no longer wanting to break the law, he compared it to basketball and how the players don't think about the rules of the game, but they just know it by instinct. This I beleive is how a person becomes right with God, it has nothing to do with relegious stanse or prefrence, it has everything to do with heart condition. Do you delight in breaking God's law? Than your probably among the wicked, do you delight in keeping God's law? than your prolly among the rightious.

 

[ClausJohn]

it's simple biblical fact, and is left up to the viewer on how they respond.

If i hold a gun to your head and threaten you to do as i say then it is also simply a fact of life. And yet it's also a scare tactic.

It might be a biblical fact, but it's not a fact of reality, as there is no proof of it.

 

[SonicBOOM]

If i hold a gun to your head and threaten you to do as i say then it is also simply a fact of life. And yet it's also a scare tactic.

not to mention an act of evil. Modern evanglism has such a twisted veiw of God's justice. God's justice should be a strong tower that we hide under, here's one of the many refreinces I read to find confort in God's justice.

Isaiah 11:1-5:

1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.

2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him—
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of power,
the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD -
3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD.
He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes,
or decide by what he hears with his ears;
4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy,
with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth.
He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth;
with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness will be his belt
and faithfulness the sash around his waist.


this is a vision of God's holy justice and it's a GOOD thing. He will judge FAIRLY and faithfulness will be his sash, God is a GOOD judge.

 

[ClausJohn]

@Masked_Chris: So to add to my own example: I only shoot the people that i deem "unworthy" by my own moral standards. How could that be good?

Especially since many of the biblical morals are completely outdated by now that should be a grave concern to anybody.

Again, by my example, unworthy for me would then include anyone not dressing like we're living in the 1960s.

It does not matter how fair god is by any standard. To be judged at the end is a threat, if not being judged worthy has some repercussions for you. We don't need god to judge anybody for what they do during their lifetime. We have our respective countries to do that for us.

 

[SonicBOOM]

@Masked_Chris: So to add to my own example: I only shoot the people that i deem "unworthy" by my own moral standards. How could that be good?

Especially since many of the biblical morals are completely outdated by now that should be a grave concern to anybody.

Again, by my example, unworthy for me would then include anyone not dressing like we're living in the 1960s.

well what tells you that? why do you think the laws of the bible are outdated and unjust? Do you beleive that God writes his law upon our hearts? And that there is a universal rightiousness that all humans subconceincly beleive. C.S. Lewis [read him before you shun him btw] has alot to say about this. He claims that all humans have a universal code of rightiouness thats written upon our hearts. Now assuming that God will judge people by THAT law and code of rightiouness? Than thats a good thing because we are in desperate need for some justice in this world.

It does not matter how fair god is by any standard. To be judged at the end is a threat, if not being judged worthy has some repercussions for you

being judged is being held accountable for stuff we've done [both the good and bad btw]. And to give each deed it's proper curse and blessing. God's justice is a good thing because we live in a very unjust world where the needy are nelgected and the good get cursed and the evil get blessed. God promises that he will set things right, why does he need to set things right? Because things have gone wrong.

 

[Aras]

I don't beleive that levitical law was the actul law of God, here's why. When Jesus entered the scene we hardly heard anything like what levitical law commanded, infact Jesus was full of compassion and mercy and often rebuked the Pharasees for trying to obey what the levitical law commanded. Jesus is God right? Than something is a-miss here. why would God now be opposed to the very law he supposevally created? The answer is found here:

Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

ok so whats up here? not only does Jesus oppose levitical law, but he also says that some of the law was written because men's hearts were hard. Is it possable that levitical law was more the law of the Jews and not the law of God? The law of God has been written upon our hearts.... so if we listen to that inner law we can see that something is amiss with the levitical law

Well naturally Levitical law isn't really expected in modern times, that wasn't my point in posting that reference. However, the verses I gave are portrayed as a narrative from God, so your verse concerning Moses does not apply, and the verses are still very much a scare-tactic. (Obey me or I will smite you, etc.)

 

[SonicBOOM]

Well naturally Levitical law isn't really expected in modern times, that wasn't my point in posting that reference. However, the verses I gave are portrayed as a narrative from God, so your verse concerning Moses does not apply, and the verses are still very much a scare-tactic. (Obey me or I will smite you, etc.)

well you also gotta consider the culture of the time. These are mid-evil and ruthless times and the quotations that claim to come directly from God could have actully have come from God. But I somehow think the Jews prefered it that way. God would be considered evil by today's standard and no one would quistion it. But back than? God's way of doing things was considered very normal. No matter how grusome it may be, God will do what he has to to relate to his people. The people of the time seemed to enjoy the way God did things and as barbaric and savage as it may seem, he said these things among barbaric and savage people.

Why do i say this? because it was only those in the OT who were far away from God who saw the system in the eyes of the Jews. The people who were close to God saw a diffrent side of God and it's the same image we see in jesus.

King David seemed to have this image of God:

Psalm 69:16 (New International Version)

Answer me, O LORD, out of the goodness of your love;
in your great mercy turn to me.

regarding sacrifices, the people who were close to god claimed that God hated sacrifices:

Psalm 40:6 (New American Standard Bible)

Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired;
My ears You have [a]opened;
Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.


so christains are not the first ones to see a merciful side of God even in the OT, the OT people claimed to see this side and I beleive they have seen it. God I beleive shows off for the sake of people's culture.... but deeper down he's still a God of love and mercy.

 

[ClausJohn]

why do you think the laws of the bible are outdated and unjust?

Maybe the genocidal, gay-hating, child-killing, slave-owning parts for a start?
But you apparenty know already that those parts are not a good basis for modern legislation. The problem is not that these parts once were, or that they are in the bible. The problem are people that think they are a good basis for modern laws because it's in the bible.

Do you beleive that God writes his law upon our hearts? And that there is a universal rightiousness that all humans subconceincly beleive. C.S. Lewis [...] has alot to say about this. He claims that all humans have a universal code of rightiouness thats written upon our hearts. Now assuming that God will judge people by THAT law and code of rightiouness? Than thats a good thing because we are in desperate need for some justice in this world.

As i do not believe in god i also do not believe he put anything in our hearts. But let's assume he did. What about people with mental illnesses that can't see this code of righteousness and do "bad" deeds, that feel "right" to them? How will god judge them?
I do not feel that the world is inherently unjust. it's just...random. We just tend to notice bad things more and take good things for granted. If you never get mugged you don't spend each day thinking "It's great to not get mugged!" - on the other hand if you get mugged you'll spend quite some time pondering the injustice of it, the danger that is your neighbourhood, etc. I have stopped thinking about "bad luck" or bad things happening to me, and i feel i'm a happier person for doing so.

(read him before you shun him btw)

I read Narnia, but something tells me you're not referring to that

being judged is being held accountable for stuff we've done [both the good and bad btw]. And to give each deed it's proper curse and blessing. God's justice is a good thing because we live in a very unjust world where the needy are nelgected and the good get cursed and the evil get blessed. God promises that he will set things right, why does he need to set things right? Because things have gone wrong.

Shouldn't god be able to rectify things now instead of after our dead? He's ominpotent as far as i know. The only possible explanations for this are that god likes to test us (which would be unneccessary if he's all-knowing anyway), god is a sadist that likes to see us suffer (which given bad things in the world holds a greater likelihood) or that he simply doesn't exist.

Btw, i wonder why you would say that the good get cursed and the evil get blessed...i have quite a different view of the world. The majority of "good" people lead good and normal lives, while the majority of "evil" people usually don't get away with it for long. But then again, i'm an optimist

 

[SonicBOOM]

Maybe the genocidal, gay-hating, child-killing, slave-owning parts for a start?

this is why I doubt the basis of levitical law being from god, it seems to contradict Jesus nature and even YAHWAH in the OT in alot of places, specifcally verses where he laments about injustice and expecaully where he says he's sick and tired of sacrifices

But you apparenty know already that those parts are not a good basis for modern legislation. The problem is not that these parts once were, or that they are in the bible. The problem are people that think they are a good basis for modern laws because it's in the bible.

right... I agree. You don't wanna take anything by blind faith. But I don't think the princaples of the bible are as bad as one may think. Everyone has had a diffrent oppionion of right and wrong throughout the years, but we are always able to compare them to some sort of higher code, and we usaully say a morel system is "bad" because of the consequences the people faced. Now this can apply to us as well. Why is there so much heart break in the world? Because we don't obey the command that says to guard your heart. Why is there so much sex addiction and problems with STDs. Because we don't obey the command that says that we should monitor our sex lives. Now i know evangelical christains have taken things to an extreme.... but the world has also taken things to an extreme in the other direction. We both agree on this I hope. Now what tells us this? Why are we able to compare a bad code of rightiousness from a good one? Why do we seem to agree that stealing is bad and that loving your neighbor is good? The laws of the bible I think are what are written upon our heart, it's just hard to find those laws within the biblical context. You gotta look at more than levitical law and you gotta try to read between the lines. If you read the prophetic books you tend to see a diffrent veiw of God [most of the time].

As i do not believe in god i also do not believe he put anything in our hearts. But let's assume he did. What about people with mental illnesses that can't see this code of righteousness and do "bad" deeds, that feel "right" to them? How will god judge them?

well an illness is considered a sickness and considering Jesus treatment of sick people, I think he would seperate the sickness from the actul act. Now I'm guessing you don't beleive in demon-possossion, but lets say you did for an instant. The people who were possossed did some pretty evil things, yet God blames it on the demon and casts the demon out and frees the man. now if you consider an illness as a sort of "demon" than i think you can start to understand how God would handle that through the image of Jesus.

I do not feel that the world is inherently unjust. it's just...random. We just tend to notice bad things more and take good things for granted. If you never get mugged you don't spend each day thinking "It's great to not get mugged!" - on the other hand if you get mugged you'll spend quite some time pondering the injustice of it, the danger that is your neighbourhood, etc. I have stopped thinking about "bad luck" or bad things happening to me, and i feel i'm a happier person for doing so.

but I do think that there is a whole lot of injustice in the world, yes good things happen, but most of the time it's pretty bad. But maybe I'm just pestemistc

Shouldn't god be able to rectify things now instead of after our dead? He's ominpotent as far as i know. The only possible explanations for this are that god likes to test us (which would be unneccessary if he's all-knowing anyway), god is a sadist that likes to see us suffer (which given bad things in the world holds a greater likelihood) or that he simply doesn't exist.

there's a parable Jesus told about this that I think answers our quistion.

Matthew 13: 24-30

24Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "(A)The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.

25"But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed [a]tares among the wheat, and went away.
26"But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
27"The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
28"And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'
29"But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but (B)gather the wheat into my barn."'"

 

[ClausJohn]

Why is there so much heart break in the world? Because we don't obey the command that says to guard your heart.

I'm afraid i cannot follow you on this one. Guarding your heart?

Why is there so much sex addiction and problems with STDs.

Humanity has already gone through worse times with STDs...and while a sex addiction is as bad as any kind of addiction, i don't really see it as a big threat to society in general or really as a "mainstream" problem. Far more peple die from alcohol or car accidents. Shouldn't we rather ban alcohol and cars instead of harmless sex?

but the world has also taken things to an extreme in the other direction. We both agree on this I hope.

No, we don't. I see the world as becoming an increasingly better place to live in. Less disease, less crime, higher standard of living. How many people die of hunger in europe compared to a few hundred years ago? I'm not saying the world is ideal or that we don't have many problematic areas on earth, but they have been problematic a long time ago as well.

Why do we seem to agree that stealing is bad and that loving your neighbor is good?

Because...haven't i explained this 2 times already? It's beneficial to society to support these and in turn they are good for any individual belonging to this society.

You gotta look at more than levitical law and you gotta try to read between the lines. If you read the prophetic books you tend to see a diffrent veiw of God [most of the time].

So the bible is vague and unclear. Why even bother reading it then and not use reason to make our own morals? I consider myself a "good" person - by my own standards. I don't need the bible to tell me what to do and what not to do. That i won't kill under normal circumstances and the bible is against killing does not mean i got this from the bible.

well an illness is considered a sickness and considering Jesus treatment of sick people, I think he would seperate the sickness from the actul act. Now I'm guessing you don't beleive in demon-possossion, but lets say you did for an instant. The people who were possossed did some pretty evil things, yet God blames it on the demon and casts the demon out and frees the man. now if you consider an illness as a sort of "demon" than i think you can start to understand how God would handle that through the image of Jesus.

Well, ok, but that still leaves the question why god would allow us being possessed by demons in the first place. What would be the point of this. Or to go even further - why did he design our innate sense of right and wrong to be so faulty?

there's a parable Jesus told about this that I think answers our quistion.

Horrible analogy. It does not explain why god doesn't remove all "evil" people from the world by a snap of his fingers. If he is omnipotent he can rectify any possible consequence of his actions. Also it suggests that some people are born evil without being able to change during their lifetime.
Of course i'm pretty sure myself that back in those days people didn't believe in any god being omnipotent as we understand it now, just believing them to be "pretty powerful compared to a human being" - we would today say limited. This would certainly explain why Jesus would suggest god just cannot remove the bad ones from the good ones.

The question of "why does god let bad things happen" is certainly not a new one, but unfortunately one that has not been answered by anyone in a way that would suggest an existing, potent/interfering or existing god to me.

 

[Margim]

The reason I stick by what I said is because I do not say it...........it comes streight from the scriptures I am meerly repeating it. Would you call the ambassador of a king arrogant because he said what the king had told Him to say?
Mark

But you are not speaking straight from the scriptures. You are offering your interpretation of the scriptures - that's something different entirely.

 

[Followers4christ]

If god loves us "sooo much", why did he create hell in the first place?

He did not make hell for people,he made it for the devil and his angels.But when man rebelled against God and his authority.Then God gave man a choice that choice is Believe in Christ and be saved or depart from God's love and be thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[ClausJohn]

He did not make hell for people,he made it for the devil and his angles.But when man rebelled against God and his authority.Then God gave man a choice that choice is Believe in Christ and be saved or depart from God's love and be thrown into the lake of fire.

He made it for the fallen angels - so what? I don't see any justification for putting us "sinners" there. We deserve it becauso we don't follow him? You talk of choice when it is not a choice at all.

It's "your money or your life", nothing else. You are forced to believe, because the alternative seems so bad. Ho often does it need repeating that it is a scare tactic. It does not matter if the one threatening offers something reasonable as a "good" choice - it still remains a threat.

 

[Followers4christ]

Nope, I consider that people prefer to wield it as a weapon to persecute and demonize people they don't know or understand while intimidating the people into joining.

The letter to hell is the perfect example of the secondary, intimidating and scaring people into joining up. Its got nothing to do with letting people feel Gods love and more to do with scaring the pants off them until they believe anything you tell them.

It sounds to me that your problem is not with the video but that of the bible which is God's word.We should love and fear God for he is our maker.God Bless

Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

 

[Followers4christ]

Nope, I consider that people prefer to wield it as a weapon to persecute and demonize people they don't know or understand while intimidating the people into joining.

The letter to hell is the perfect example of the secondary, intimidating and scaring people into joining up. Its got nothing to do with letting people feel Gods love and more to do with scaring the pants off them until they believe anything you tell them.

double post.

 

[Followers4christ]

[/size][/size][/color] How exactly does a pessimistic video inspire people to talk about love? Seems like it would just inspire people to talk about how much they hate those who are different from them (i.e., the Hell-bound people).

If you watch the video it encourages people to talk about their faith so that they may spare people from ever having to go to such a terrible place as hell.The video never encourages people to look down on anyone but instead to show them the love of Christ.God Bless

Luke 15:10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

 

[ClausJohn]

If you watch the video it encourages people to talk about their faith so that they may spare people from ever having to go to such a terrible place as hell.

Yes, as i said it gives believers a bad conscience about not "spreading the word".

The video never encourages people to look down on anyone but instead to show them the love of Christ.

Yes, the "love, or else...". Scare tactic.

 

[HannahBanana]

^^What ClausJohn said, lol.