A last War?

[Marut]

My uncle, who is a priest, visited the other day. He asked me if I was going to be good and become a Christian like my parents, and I just said respectfully "No, thank you."
"Don't you want to be saved?!" he said.
"Umm.... not.....right...now?" was all I could think to say.
"In the last war between Heaven and Hell, who's side do you want to be on?!"
Thankfully my parents intervened and calmed him down. But I was shook. In Christianity, is there going to be a war between Christians and non-Christians? I don't hate Christians at all, I just choose not to be. I later overheard him saying "Well, it is going to be in her life-time..." I don't want to be in a war, especially in some sort of apoctalyptic battle between Heaven and Hell. Does the Bible say anything about this? What do you think?

 

[food4thought]

My uncle, who is a priest, visited the other day. He asked me if I was going to be good and become a Christian like my parents, and I just said respectfully "No, thank you."
"Don't you want to be saved?!" he said.
"Umm.... not.....right...now?" was all I could think to say.
"In the last war between Heaven and Hell, who's side do you want to be on?!"
Thankfully my parents intervened and calmed him down. But I was shook. In Christianity, is there going to be a war between Christians and non-Christians? I don't hate Christians at all, I just choose not to be. I later overheard him saying "Well, it is going to be in her life-time..." I don't want to be in a war, especially in some sort of apoctalyptic battle between Heaven and Hell. Does the Bible say anything about this? What do you think?

I do not know for sure what your Uncle was speaking of, but I can guess that he believes that we are living very near to the last days. The book of Revelation, in chapters 6-18, speaks of a final period of time on the earth before the second coming of Jesus Christ. I do believe that this could be what he was referring to, it will be a time of great evil, in which a final world empire will be set up, and this empire will "make war against" (persecute and kill) the believers and overcome them. Looking around the world, it is not difficult to see that there are many signs that seem to indicate that this time period is going to come to pass sometime in our lifetime.


May I ask a few questions? If you do not want to answer, you don't have to; but it would be very helpful in answering your questions to know where you stand in regard to Jesus. Why do you not want to become a Christian? Have you read the Bible much? What did your parents say about your uncle and what he said? Have you talked to them about God recently?

 

[gnine]

The book of Revelation does talk about a great war that will take place between the forces of light and the forces of darkness.

Nobody has a perfect understanding of the events described in that book - even though they may claim to have. Yes... even priests or your uncle.

I don't want to minimise things by saying "Don't worry about it, it won't happen", because your uncles interpretation may be the right one - but its also quite unlikely that events will work out exactly the way your uncle says and during your lifetime.

But uncles general point still stands - if you believe the bible regarding the apocalyse then you also should believe the rest of the bible and its teachings about Christ. You should make sure that you repent, turn to Christ and get to know Him. Afterall, not much point in avoiding an apocalypic war on earth if you are instead spending eternity as a goat.

 

[heron]

Marut,
So sorry you are put on the spot whenever you see him. Wouldn't it be nice to just visit with him and feel loved and respected, instead of pushed? He is probably putting the responsibility on himself, feeling a little guilty that his ducks aren't in a row. (God thinks of you as much more than a duck.)

The war--that's worth asking. Feel free to look for yourself, you don't need to believe in the Bible to read it. The book of Revelation to John has a lot of symbolism, so it's interesting to try to figure parts out, and how events correspond with our current ones. The book was based on a very tangible vision he had, maybe an out-of-body experience. "I was in ecstasy" 1:10 (not on). Many of the references to end times are found here.

The battle is not supposed to be individual Christians against non-Christians. The Christians expect to undergo increased persecution during this time, but are not expected to fight back. I believe that your grandfather is referring to
supernatural forces behind the scenes.

When you hear references to an international battle of Armegeddon, that is a location where armies of many countries are expected to converge for a massive war, but it is unclear what happens after they arrive. The location is strategic for those who would be upset over the Israeli-Palestinian border dispute. Megiddo is a hill, about 30 miles inland, in the Jezreel Valley close to where Lebanon, Palestine Syria, and Israel meet. It's quite a ways north of Jerusalem.

http://www.christiankonnections.com/assets/images/Map__Megiddo_.gif

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery...egiddo+(place)&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc03a


A few other mentions of the End Times:

2 Thessalonians 2
Daniel 11
Matthew 24
Mark 13


Avoiding being in a war...we've been awfully lucky so far, if you look at history. It's hard to avoid being in a war. Like they say-- death, war and taxes are inevitable. We are just fortunate to live so safely. I'm sure you've adapted to all kinds of things so far; you'll do fine, whatever comes along. Even if you don't believe in God, tell Him that you'd like to know what you can do to prepare. You can lean on Him.

 

[talitha]

As gnine said, nobody has a perfect understanding. But I do believe that your uncle was close if not dead on. I don't know how old you are, but I believe that people in their twenties now will not grow old, because the end will be before that. There are many prophecies, even some from traditions outside of Christianity, that suggest that the end will be within twenty years. The Mayan calendar ends on December 23, 2012. This, of course, does not frighten me, because the Lord is my refuge and strength.

Here's a passage from Revelation that applies to your question:

Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great." And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

may you be blessed with every spiritual blessing in Christ, Faithful and True
tal

 

[Marut]

May I ask a few questions? If you do not want to answer, you don't have to; but it would be very helpful in answering your questions to know where you stand in regard to Jesus. Why do you not want to become a Christian? Have you read the Bible much? What did your parents say about your uncle and what he said? Have you talked to them about God recently?

To be honest, I've always been afraid of Christianity as a whole. In Welgaia's Fear of Holy Water? thread (in struggles by non-Christians), I'm the.... subject of the original post. That should explain a few things .
My parents said that they didn't know whether there is going to be a war, and that my uncle was a little extreme when comes to religion in the family, but he only wants the best for me. My parents are Christians, but they haven't pressured me with it. I very grateful of their approach: "We'll let you make the choice whether or not to be a Christian rather then push you to, because a right choice made for the wrong reasons can be a bad choice." God is a pretty open subject at our household, but I don't bring it up with friends. I would consider myself an agnostic, but I have seen a few supernatural things in my life that have made me fairly sure of something out there. I wouldn't cast out the idea of a holy war to Christian non-sense, so that's why I came here to ask. Thank you for all your help everyone!

 

[tekwerx]

Yes, there will be an all out war. As was staed above, it wont be fought individually, but as a whole. For quite some time it will be fought as a shadow war, or cold war, whichever you prefer. A lot of people taking stances and making a stand for either side, but no actual fighting...then it will explode in the end, and only those on the side of Jesus, who is the Christ, will be left the victors. This is called Armageddon. It saddens me to know it will happen, but it has to.

 

[Psalms34]

To be honest, I've always been afraid of Christianity as a whole. In Welgaia's Fear of Holy Water? thread (in struggles by non-Christians), I'm the.... subject of the original post. That should explain a few things .
My parents said that they didn't know whether there is going to be a war, and that my uncle was a little extreme when comes to religion in the family, but he only wants the best for me. My parents are Christians, but they haven't pressured me with it. I very grateful of their approach: "We'll let you make the choice whether or not to be a Christian rather then push you to, because a right choice made for the wrong reasons can be a bad choice." God is a pretty open subject at our household, but I don't bring it up with friends. I would consider myself an agnostic, but I have seen a few supernatural things in my life that have made me fairly sure of something out there. I wouldn't cast out the idea of a holy war to Christian non-sense, so that's why I came here to ask. Thank you for all your help everyone!

Hmmm my family experience was the opposite, no they didn't force Jesus on me or anything like that. Actually my Dad forbid me to become a Christian and pretty much gave up on the father -n- son stuff after that. When I was 12 I used to sneak out to go to church.

Anyway, it's hard to interpret for you exactly what was being said. It's sorta like the telephone game where the next person in line tries to say what the person had said to them.

Yes there will definitely be a war. As has been mentioned, Armageddon. At the end of the battle, Jesus will appear from the sky with his army (us) and we will end this war before mankind destroys itself. Mankind will continue on for another 1000 years until the very last war where the devil will be released from hell and get the nations to war with God once again. There are different views on such translations and what should be taken literal from the bible and what should not be. Chances that if he believes that this will happen in our lifetime that he holds a more literal view as I do so this may be something he was mentioning to you.

Too bad your father doesn't take you to church to learn all this stuff, I would have seriously loved that, myself.

 

[bethdinsmore]

Quote: "To be honest, I've always been afraid of Christianity as a whole. In Welgaia's Fear of Holy Water? thread (in struggles by non-Christians), I'm the.... subject of the original post. That should explain a few things" Quote

Hi Marut-
Did you happen to see my reply #3 in "Fear of Holy Water", which was referring to you? There are worse things to fear.
If you care to explain why you fear Christianity, perhaps we could provide some answers to show there is nothing to fear.
Also, here are "Answers to Tough Questions" www.rbc.org/questions

God bless you, Marut, aloha in Jesus

 

[selfintercession]

There will be a final war between all of the forces in heaven and hell. Jesus will judge the world and all the evil in the world will be destroyed alongside of satan. Those who believe and have faith in Christ will be saved, those who deny Him will perish and those who have not yet had the opportunity to accept Him for a variety of reasons but who have led relatively good lives have the possibility of being saved by His grace -- but nobody knows about them for sure other than God, Himself. Not to sound like one of those people screaming about the end of the world on the streets of New York, but I do believe that this is coming sooner rather than later... obviously no person on earth can possibly know the exact timing, but I feel that it is coming soon.

Make your own decision, but this is what I believe

 

[White St*r]

"...those who have not yet had the opportunity to accept Him for a variety of reasons but who have led relatively good lives have the possibility of being saved by His grace ..."

Lost_and_found, I think that the part you said there can be very dangerous and I honestly don't believe it to be true. The reason I say that it is dangerous is because there is only one way to God and that is through Jesus (we all know that), so when you say that those who did not chose Him will still be saved, it may sound to someone like Marut that she/he can just stay "in the middle" and one day when Jesus returns she will be saved by his mercy...



This however is absolutely wrong, and even though I can agree to some extend with you in some ways about the fact that some "...have not yet had the opportunity to accept Him for a variety of reasons..." I also believe that in this instance when it specifically comes to Marut, she have heard about Jesus, she has access to the word of God, and she can ask as many questions as she like to try and determine the truth, therefore if the Lord was to return to earth in a weeks time, Marut will not be with His hole saints and the other servants of God, and will be in the side against which God makes war, since only by believing in the "heart" and announcing our faith with our mouth are we saved.



THAT BEING SAID, I know that Marut should not now suddenly panic and just except Christ because she doesn't want to be against Him when He returns, she should rather just ask and pray something like "Lord, if you do exists, please put the faith it in my heart to believe in you, and to have a living relationship with you." So if God then does exists, will He not answer her prayer then? For does His word not say that He will not turn away anyone who comes to Him...? Only God can give us the faith to believe in Him. For seeing is not believing, believing is believing. We cannot believe in what we can see, to believe in a God that we can see is not Faith, it is commonsense.



Therefore Marut must ask her questions and meditate on the issue etc, but at one stage she has to come to a point where she decides if there is a God/Creator, and if He's name is Jesus or Buddha or Mohammed or Marut, or whatever...



Lost_and_found, I say all of this in love, and I only say this because as Christians we should help those who don't believe also in love, but we should not give them a false sense of security. If one did not pray for the Lord to enter into His "heart" and be his God, then he/she is NOT saved...



Rather sooner than later, for the time I also believe is short...



Lots of love for now Marut, and especially my brother in Christ : Lost_and_found.

 

[selfintercession]

Lost_and_found, I think that the part you said there can be very dangerous and I honestly don't believe it to be true. The reason I say that it is dangerous is because there is only one way to God and that is through Jesus (we all know that), so when you say that those who did not chose Him will still be saved, it may sound to someone like Marut that she/he can just stay "in the middle" and one day when Jesus returns she will be saved by his mercy...

Wrong. That's not what I said at all. Marut has had the opportunity to accept Him. I'm talking about people living in places where Christianity is non-existent and where they've never even heard the name Jesus.

If anything is dangerous at all, it is men who presume that they can possible know the extent of God's grace to it's full capacity. Are you saing that God can never extend His mercy far enough to pardon those who haven't accepted Jesus? How do you know this? How do you think God feels about one of His children preaching limitations on His mercifulness?

This however is absolutely wrong, and even though I can agree to some extend with you in some ways about the fact that some "...have not yet had the opportunity to accept Him for a variety of reasons..." I also believe that in this instance when it specifically comes to Marut, she have heard about Jesus, she has access to the word of God, and she can ask as many questions as she like to try and determine the truth, therefore if the Lord was to return to earth in a weeks time, Marut will not be with His hole saints and the other servants of God, and will be in the side against which God makes war, since only by believing in the "heart" and announcing our faith with our mouth are we saved.

Show me in my post where I said Marut was a person who had not been given the opportunity to accept Jesus?

My point was clearly that some people can be saved through God's mercy. I never said Marut should look forward to this special consideration did I? Why are you putting words in my mouth?

THAT BEING SAID, I know that Marut should not now suddenly panic and just except Christ because she doesn't want to be against Him when He returns, she should rather just ask and pray something like "Lord, if you do exists, please put the faith it in my heart to believe in you, and to have a living relationship with you." So if God then does exists, will He not answer her prayer then? For does His word not say that He will not turn away anyone who comes to Him...? Only God can give us the faith to believe in Him. For seeing is not believing, believing is believing. We cannot believe in what we can see, to believe in a God that we can see is not Faith, it is commonsense.

You're preaching to the choir...

Therefore Marut must ask her questions and meditate on the issue etc, but at one stage she has to come to a point where she decides if there is a God/Creator, and if He's name is Jesus or Buddha or Mohammed or Marut, or whatever...

You're preaching to the choir...

Lost_and_found, I say all of this in love, and I only say this because as Christians we should help those who don't believe also in love, but we should not give them a false sense of security. If one did not pray for the Lord to enter into His "heart" and be his God, then he/she is NOT saved...

I didn't give anybody false hope. You should read people's posts more carefully in the future

 

[White St*r]

Alright, I didn't want to start an argument with you, so if I said anything that offended you, or misquoted you, I sincerely apologise. It was not my intention, in the end I was just trying to help Marut.



But let's then talk about what you said now, for maybe I don't understand your point and you might have more wisdom on this than me, so please, let me ask so that I can learn from you then ...

[/color]





If anything is dangerous at all, it is men who presume that they can possible know the extent of God's grace to it's full capacity.

I totally agree with that!

Are you saying that God can never extend His mercy far enough to pardon those who haven't accepted Jesus?

So before I say something to that then, let me get clear about what you are saying ... Are you saying that there is a way for a person to go to heaven one day without accepting Jesus?

How do you know this? How do you think God feels about one of His children preaching limitations on His mercifulness?

I agree again, but is it wrong to preach what the bible says then? For does not Jesus say that no one can come to the Father accept through Him (Emphasis added). When the bible talks about grace, it talks about the grace of God for showing us Christ, who is the way to Him and heaven. It never talks about the grace of God who saves people apart from through Christ... (If the bible does teach this, then could you please show me where it stands, so that the truth can set me free.)

 

[Psalms34]

[/color]


If anything is dangerous at all, it is men who presume that they can possible know the extent of God's grace to it's full capacity. Are you saing that God can never extend His mercy far enough to pardon those who haven't accepted Jesus? How do you know this? How do you think God feels about one of His children preaching limitations on His mercifulness?

Because it's not in scripture and scripture teaches that unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God (St. John 3:3)
Maybe instead of completely derailing this thread, you guys could agree on starting your own debate thread? Tootles!

 

[selfintercession]

So before I say something to that then, let me get clear about what you are saying ... Are you saying that there is a way for a person to go to heaven one day without accepting Jesus?

I'm saying it's possible and that there is no way for us to know. Anybody who says absolutely that a person cannot be saved simply by the grace of God places limits on God's capacity for love and forgiveness.

I agree again, but is it wrong to preach what the bible says then? For does not Jesus say that no one can come to the Father accept through Him (Emphasis added). When the bible talks about grace, it talks about the grace of God for showing us Christ, who is the way to Him and heaven. It never talks about the grace of God who saves people apart from through Christ... (If the bible does teach this, then could you please show me where it stands, so that the truth can set me free.)

The Bible doesn't talk about a lot of things. Where did God come from? The Bible doesn't tell us... does that mean that God deosn't exist after all? Of course not. It just means that God didn't tell us. So then how de we know if God will save those who never had the opportunity to come to know Him later on? We don't and we can't.

You didn't offend me at all. You just completely misunderstood what I said

 

[food4thought]

To be honest, I've always been afraid of Christianity as a whole. In Welgaia's Fear of Holy Water? thread (in struggles by non-Christians), I'm the.... subject of the original post. That should explain a few things .

Wow. Without knowing your spiritual history (ie- what type of religious/spiritual experiences you've had/pursued), I would not try to explain what might be going on there... but I will say this with all the emphasis that capital letters can express: there is NOTHING that is more powerful than Jesus Christ, and WHATEVER is causing you to have this kind of reaction to holy water will NOT BE ABLE TO STAND AGAINST JESUS if you honestly confess Him as Lord of your life, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead (Romans 10:8-11).

My parents said that they didn't know whether there is going to be a war, and that my uncle was a little extreme when comes to religion in the family, but he only wants the best for me. My parents are Christians, but they haven't pressured me with it. I very grateful of their approach: "We'll let you make the choice whether or not to be a Christian rather then push you to, because a right choice made for the wrong reasons can be a bad choice." God is a pretty open subject at our household, but I don't bring it up with friends. I would consider myself an agnostic, but I have seen a few supernatural things in my life that have made me fairly sure of something out there. I wouldn't cast out the idea of a holy war to Christian non-sense, so that's why I came here to ask. Thank you for all your help everyone!

I would agree with the assessment that you should truly search your heart about these things. I would strongly encourage you to seek out answers to your questions by reading the Bible yourself. Do not place the burden of convincing you of the truth or untruth of Christianity on any one else... even a pastor or priest.

Jer 29:11-12 'For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope. (12) 'Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you.

I hope this encourages you to seek the LORD. It is not wrong to fear God, but your decision to follow Him should follow an understanding that He loves you with everlasting, perfect love.
If you do not believe me that God loves you, I will let Him tell you Himself:

Jer 31:3 The LORD appeared to him from afar, saying, "I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness.

Hos 14:4 I will heal their apostasy, I will love them freely, For My anger has turned away from them.

Mic 7:18-20 Who is a God like You, who pardons iniquity And passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, Because He delights in unchanging love. (19) He will again have compassion on us; He will tread our iniquities under foot. Yes, You will cast all their sins Into the depths of the sea. (20) You will give truth to Jacob And unchanging love to Abraham, Which You swore to our forefathers From the days of old.

Zep 3:17 "The LORD your God is in your midst, A victorious warrior. He will exult over you with joy, He will be quiet in His love, He will rejoice over you with shouts of joy.

Joh 15:9-13 "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. (10) "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. (11) "These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. (12) "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. (13) "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Eph 2:4-9 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, (5) even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), (6) and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (7) so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (9) not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

1Jo 4:8-11 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. (9) By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. (10) In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (11) Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
Rev 3:19-20 'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. (20) 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

 

[CPman2004]

MOD HAT

There will be no futher debating in this thread. The Questions by Non-Christians is not for debate, but for answering questions.

MOD HAT

 

[heron]

I've found that when God tells me something in advance, whether it's an internal voice or hunch or vision or scriptures, it's usually to prepare me for something I wouldn't ordinarily be able to figure out--what direction to take, which side is "right," why something bad happened to me, etc.

If you read Revelations with that in mind, a protective sort of forewarning, then it's not about the details but a sense that God is above it all, and wants you to feel sheltered in the middle of it.

 

[Sketcher]

The war actually has been going on since the beginning of time. Satan rebelled, rallied a third of Heaven's angels to his side, and lost his place in Heaven in the first battle. The end of the war has already been decided: Satan and his angels (now demons) will lose, and be forever cast into hell. Between the beginning and the end, many battles have taken place and many more will. Armageddon will simply be the last battle. A thousand years afterwards, he will emerge again with many followers, but God will essentially nuke them and Satan will be thrown into hell never to be released. So maybe Armageddon is really the second to last battle.

Anyway, God's angels do most of the "fighting" on God's side. You have nothing to fear from us. The only real fighting we do is prayer, loving people, and speaking the truth. Also, angels aren't out to kill you, nor is God. Satan is the one who wants to do that, God wants you to be saved.

"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full." - John 10:10

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. " - John 3:16-17

 

[ALIOSIAS]

It's time to get on board.