A Kingdom Divided

[MercyBurst]

A kingdom divided can not stand. That is what the Savior tells us. In the history of Christendom there have been divisions over theology, but never has there been a division over the definition of sin. But now we have carnality knocking at the door, and it’s a false teaching as old as the church.

1) It does not teach repentance rather it teaches sinners are ok just like they are.

2) It teaches that immutable sexual orientation is a god that is greater than the Savior.

3) It teaches a message of confusion to non-believers where there are two different brands of Christianity but only one Christ.

4) The world looks to fundamental Christianity as the doctrinal basis, and they are supposed to believe fundamental Christianity has it all wrong according to this other group. This is an exceedingly poor witness.

5) The churches that honor the truth grow, and those that stray from the truth die just like the bible said they would.


Who will step forward and honor Christ with a good testimony?

 

[davedjy]

...or perhaps what really should be mentioned is that there are so many divisive and judgmental Christians, that many that don't know Christ, never really get to see what Christ is like.

 

[MercyBurst]

...or perhaps what really should be mentioned is that there are so many divisive and judgmental Christians, that many that don't know Christ, never really get to see what Christ is like.

In the end, Christ will judge everyone, both believers and unbelievers. If you don't like Him doing that, I guess you are out of luck.

Righteousness needs no explanation to people. They'll know it when they see it.

Billions came to Him through repentence for their sins -- a soul saving doctrine that we just don't hear from you.

There aren't two ways to heaven.

 

[davedjy]

In the end, Christ will judge everyone, both believers and unbelievers. If you don't like Him doing that, I guess you are out of luck.

Righteousness needs no explanation to people. They'll know it when they see it.

Billions came to Him through repentence for their sins -- a soul saving doctrine that we just don't hear from you.

There aren't two ways to heaven.

Did I say that I have problems with Christ judging? no.

What did I mention in the post? that the main problem is judgmental, divisive Christians.

You keep bringing in ad hominem attacks against me about repentance, and that I don't preach a soul saving doctrine. You don't know anything about my beliefs on repentance. I do believe in repentance, however, I don't believe homosexuality is something to repent of.

 

[MercyBurst]

Did I say that I have problems with Christ judging? no.

What did I mention in the post? that the main problem is judgmental, divisive Christians.

You keep bringing in ad hominem attacks against me about repentance, and that I don't preach a soul saving doctrine. You don't know anything about my beliefs on repentance. I do believe in repentance, however, I don't believe homosexuality is something to repent of.

Yeah, we've heard plenty from you about it already Dave. I have a very good memory.

In your opinion a judge is anyone that believes same-sex-sodomy is a sin, which includes the vast majority of Christendom.

So tell me DJ -- most Christians believe same-sex-sodomy is a sin according to the scriptures -- the same scriptures that require us to change our behaviors too -- are we being judgmental of ourselves?

 

[MercyBurst]

Does anybody care to address the OP, or will we have another sin-defendathon?

 

[TheFathersDaughter]

This hasn't even existed that long and you're already saying "Oh, no answer. Must mean you guys have no argument". Anyway.

Homosexuality has never split "the kingdom". It's never mentioned in ANY of the prophecies about the end of the world. So I don't see how this is relevant to this forum. All you did was, as usual, throw "sexual orientation" in there and try to pass it off just for the sake of trying to blame homosexuals for something. Again.

 

[davedjy]

Yeah, we've heard plenty from you about it already Dave. I have a very good memory.

Then you should agree that I have not discussed my beliefs on repentance, but you still put words in my mouth saying that I don't believe in it.

In your opinion a judge is anyone that believes same-sex-sodomy is a sin, which includes the vast majority of Christendom.

Nope, never said that. I respect people's right to believe homosexuality to be a sin. The judgmental types I am referring to are the ones that say that we are going to hell, that we aren't saved, or not Christians. I cannot respect that, because it isn't for people to judge who is saved and who isn't, that is up to God to decide.

So tell me DJ -- most Christians believe same-sex-sodomy is a sin according to the scriptures -- the same scriptures that require us to change our behaviors too -- are we being judgmental of ourselves?

Sexual orientation is an unchangeable thing. If there was any Godly wisdom in these ex-gay programs, you wouldn't find every credible mental health foundation in America condemning them and saying they don't work. You will not find that with drug or alcohol abuse.
Homosexuality is a part of who you are, and
separating the behavior from the orientation is all that you people can do, which is wrong.

I don't know what you mean about being judgmental to yourself. Of course, there are behaviors that need to be changed and corrected in our lives, but sexual orientation is not one that is possible to change.

 

[MercyBurst]

Then you should agree that I have not discussed my beliefs on repentance, but you still put words in my mouth saying that I don't believe in it.

You have said plenty about what you believe regarding repentance. On repeated occassions you've claimed that Jesus abolished the law.

Nope, never said that. I respect people's right to believe homosexuality to be a sin.

But others on this forum do not allow us to believe that.

The judgmental types I am referring to are the ones that say that we are going to hell, that we aren't saved, or not Christians.

They believe that no homosexual will enter heaven because of what they read in a bible. So how is this judgmental?

I cannot respect that, because it isn't for people to judge who is saved and who isn't, that is up to God to decide.

We believe God decided in the bible. So it becomes an issue of whether we believe the bible or not. We did not set out to believe this anymore than we set out to believe that murder is sin.

Sexual orientation is an unchangeable thing.

So it's bigger than Jesus. That's a crying shame.

If there was any Godly wisdom in these ex-gay programs, you wouldn't find every credible mental health foundation in America condemning them and saying they don't work.

That's because it's really a spiritual illness, which they are not knowledgable about.

You will not find that with drug or alcohol abuse.

Neither do the psychology organizations accept Jesus Christ as a Savior. So they aren't my bible, my preacher, or my God. Why should I care about them on spiritual matters?

Homosexuality is a part of who you are, and
separating the behavior from the orientation is all that you people can do, which is wrong.

The act of same-sex-sodomy is the sin. The reason isn't the issue.

I don't know what you mean about being judgmental to yourself. Of course, there are behaviors that need to be changed and corrected in our lives, but sexual orientation is not one that is possible to change.

So can God change anything in your life?

 

[naotmaa]

[FONT=Times New Roman[/QUOTE]]A kingdom divided can not stand. That is what the Savior tells us. In the history of Christendom there have been divisions over theology, but never has there been a division over the definition of sin. But now we have carnality knocking at the door, and it’s a false teaching as old as the church.[/FONT]

1) It does not teach repentance rather it teaches sinners are ok just like they are.

Well..no. I don't see any Christian here saying sinning is ok and that you don't need to repent. The issue is that they don't believe homosexuality is a sin in the first place. So that message isn't really coming across.

2) It teaches that immutable sexual orientation is a god that is greater than the Savior.

I think your word choice is very misleading here. I see no one trying to claim that sexual orientation is a "god" that God is unable to overcome. The Christians who believe that homosexuality is not a sin and fixed at birth, most likely don't view it as something God can overcome because they believe God would not want to in the first place.
Also, I have seen a few Christians who believe that it is unchangeable and also wrong. They believe it is a cross that gay people must bare for whatever reason God decided for them.

3) It teaches a message of confusion to non-believers where there are two different brands of Christianity but only one Christ.

I don't think there is any confusion. Christianity is divided on so many issues, not just homosexuality. Reformation, Anglican Church, any Christian sect actually, came about because they did not agree on a certain topic(s) that they felt were important.

No, I don't think there is any confusion for us non believers. Like a follower of any religion, we don't expect them to agree on everything because they may believe in the same God.

4) The world looks to fundamental Christianity as the doctrinal basis, and they are supposed to believe fundamental Christianity has it all wrong according to this other group. This is an exceedingly poor witness.

5) The churches that honor the truth grow, and those that stray from the truth die just like the bible said they would.

Erm..I haven't..seen any...dying?but I'm also not completely sure what you are referring to.

Who will step forward and honor Christ with a good testimony?

 

[MercyBurst]

Well..no. I don't see any Christian here saying sinning is ok and that you don't need to repent. The issue is that they don't believe homosexuality is a sin in the first place. So that message isn't really coming across.

So let's be specific here -- you don't believe the act of same-sex-sodomy is sin.

I think your word choice is very misleading here.

Likewise, and I don't see why something so simple has to be made confusing.

I see no one trying to claim that sexual orientation is a "god" that God is unable to overcome. The Christians who believe that homosexuality is not a sin and fixed at birth, most likely don't view it as something God can overcome because they believe God would not want to in the first place.

So do you think God likes having two testimonies, one that says gay-sex is ok and the other that says it's a terrible sin that can keep people out of heaven? Why would God leave it so confusing?

This would be a really poor account of God Himself, like He can't make up His mind, or He changed it, or He can't even communicate. Perhaps we should all pray He gains a better understanding of what He said, since He can't explain it to the rest of us, where we can understand right from wrong.

As a parent I have no problem explaining that to my 11 year old daughter. Neither does any other parent. Perhaps God should come to us to see how it's done. We can help Him do better. Explaining morality to adults should be a lot easier than our job. Is He up to the task, or should He enlist help?

Also, I have seen a few Christians who believe that it is unchangeable and also wrong. They believe it is a cross that gay people must bare for whatever reason God decided for them.

I can agree with that.

I don't think there is any confusion. Christianity is divided on so many issues, not just homosexuality.

But it has never been divided on sin.

Reformation, Anglican Church, any Christian sect actually, came about because they did not agree on a certain topic(s) that they felt were important.

Carnality not being one of the topics.

No, I don't think there is any confusion for us non believers. Like a follower of any religion, we don't expect them to agree on everything because they may believe in the same God.

So when I've witnessed for Christ, I've gotten remarks like this: "Well thus-and-so is a church member and he drinks and sleeps around. Why should I go?" Doesn't that hurt the cause of Christ?

Erm..I haven't..seen any...dying?but I'm also not completely sure what you are referring to.

The membership numbers for the liberal church wing is what I'm speaking of. The Episcopal Church, for example, is only 25% the size of what it used to be back in the 60s.

Likewise the UCC, which blesses same-sex-unions, is the fastest declining denomination in america.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Is it a gateway to agnosticism/universalism? Interesting.

 

[davedjy]

You have said plenty about what you believe regarding repentance. On repeated occassions you've claimed that Jesus abolished the law.

I never said that Jesus abolished the law so we wouldn't have to repent, now you are twisting things that I have said into something they aren't.

But others on this forum do not allow us to believe that.

Am I somehow responsible for what others say in this forum?

They believe that no homosexual will enter heaven because of what they read in a bible. So how is this judgmental?

To invidually believe any one person isn't going to heaven or isn't saved, IS judgmental. That chapter is taken out of context ,ad nauseam. It is just saying that without Christ, you will not enter the Kingdom of heaven, and some common sins of that time were pointed out.

So it's bigger than Jesus. That's a crying shame.

It's no bigger than praying to Jesus that your eyes turn from brown to blue. Is that bigger than Jesus even though, we can reasonably assume it will never happen?

That's because it's really a spiritual illness, which they are not knowledgable about.

Any direct Bible quote that says that homosexuality is a spiritual illness specifically?

Hmm...didn't think so, your logic is based upon your own formulaic opinion.

Neither do the psychology organizations accept Jesus Christ as a Savior. So they aren't my bible, my preacher, or my God. Why should I care about them on spiritual matters?

You have yet to prove homosexuality has anything to do with spirituality. It has been proven it is a part of who a person is that is not changeable.

The act of same-sex-sodomy is the sin. The reason isn't the issue.

The only reason you say that is because the reason isn't listed, nor is a sexual orientation mentioned. You cannot resumably isolate a sex act from a valid orientation.

So can God change anything in your life?

I have no reason to believe God would change something He CREATED to start. Homosexuality occurs all throughout nature, there are patterns here of His creation.

 

[naotmaa]

So let's be specific here -- you don't believe the act of same-sex-sodomy is sin.

No but I'm not a Christian either. So there ya go. I do however respect the beliefs of those who do believe it is sin.

Likewise, and I don't see why something so simple has to be made confusing.

So do you think God likes having two testimonies, one that says it's ok and the other that says it's a terrible sin? Why would God leave it so confusing? This would be a really poor account of God Himself, like He can't make up His mind, or changed it, or can't even communicate in a way people can understand. Really really pathetic, totally inept, and an insipid weakling. Perhaps we should all pray for His betterment, no?

Well..I don't know, I'm not God.
The fact still remains that Christians don't agree on many things. If there is a God, I certainly would not think him to be any of the things that you just described. He probably has a reason for everything he does.

I can agree with that.

But it has never been divided on sin.

I'm sure that there are Christians that believe divorce is a sin, or remarriage is sin. But there are some that don't. There are others that believe women working anywhere besides their house is a sin or very very wrong. But then others don't.

Carnality not being one of the topics.

Did not say it was.

So when I've witnessed for Christ, I've gotten remarks like this: "Well thus-and-so is a church member and he drinks and sleeps around. Why should I go?" Doesn't that hurt the cause of Christ?

yeah it does. Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to say that the divisions in Christianity were not hurting its cause. I was just trying to say that it can't all be blamed on the division on homosexuality.

The membership numbers for the liberal church wing is what I'm speaking of. The Episcopal Church, for example, is only 25% the size of what it used to be back in the 60s.

Likewise the UCC, which blesses same-sex-unions, is the fastest declining denomination in america.

Ohh. Don't feel obliged to go looking if you don't know, but do you know if they left to go to another church? If so what church? Thanks for the stats.

 

[MrPirate]

A kingdom divided can not stand. That is what the Savior tells us. In the history of Christendom there have been divisions over theology,

The largest was over the issue of slavery. In the end, the western world chose to reject biblical teachings and end slavery.

but never has there been a division over the definition of sin.

and no one is arguing over the definition of sin.

there are those ignoring the commandment of Jesus and justifying hate and discrimination….such people pretend that what they are doing isn’t a sin at all…but no one is arguing about the definition.

But now we have carnality knocking at the door, and it’s a false teaching as old as the church.

You’re trying to label prejudice as carnality? Well whatever

1) It does not teach repentance rather it teaches sinners are ok just like they are.

Yes this movement teaches that it is justifiable to discriminate minorities
That false witness in pursuit of legalized discrimination is somehow not a sin at all.
That hate is not hate if you claim you are a Christian
That hate is not hate if you can cheery pick bible verses
that personal prejudice is A-OKAY

2) It teaches that immutable sexual orientation is a god that is greater than the Savior.

A fine example of the false witness I just spoke of.

3) It teaches a message of confusion to non-believers where there are two different brands of Christianity but only one Christ.

A fine example of the false witness I just spoke of.

And what two brands?
Catholic? Greek orthodox? Baptist? Mormon? Episcopalian, Anglican? Lutheran? Russian orthodox? Quaker? Unitarian? Adventist? Christian Science? Missouri Synod? Jews For Jesus? Methodist? Presbyterian?

4) The world looks to fundamental Christianity as the doctrinal basis,

What world? Pluto?

and they are supposed to believe fundamental Christianity has it all wrong according to this other group. This is an exceedingly poor witness.

Well given the lack of evidence they got it right.
And given that many of the teachings of fundamentalists ignore the teachings of Jesus

I think its pretty safe to say who has it right

5) The churches that honor the truth grow, and those that stray from the truth die just like the bible said they would.

Well lets see…the fastest growing Christian Churches are the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And the Universal Unitarians.
There fore they must be adhering to the truth

Who will step forward and honor Christ with a good testimony?

I would be surprised beyond words if you would ever do so.

 

[davedjy]

Likewise the UCC, which blesses same-sex-unions, is the fastest declining denomination in america.

While the MCC Churches happen to be growing, and are all over the world, so there you go...

Growth and declining of Church membership don't necessarily prove anything, anyways...

5) The churches that honor the truth grow, and those that stray from the truth die just like the bible said they would.

Since when does Church growth equate to the truth being told? Joel Osteen packs out his Church with thousands, yet he will not ever preach about sin.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Yeah, we've heard plenty from you about it already Dave. I have a very good memory.

In your opinion a judge is anyone that believes same-sex-sodomy is a sin, which includes the vast majority of Christendom.

So tell me DJ -- most Christians believe same-sex-sodomy is a sin according to the scriptures -- the same scriptures that require us to change our behaviors too -- are we being judgmental of ourselves?

Would some of these Christians, be the same ones that owned slaves and forbade Woman the right to vote ?

 

[MercyBurst]

Would some of these Christians, be the same ones that owned slaves and forbade Woman the right to vote ?

Some of these Christians argue that homosexuals ARE slaves to their own perverted desires.

The Presybyterian Church barred slave owners from ordination.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/scotts/bulgarians/church.html

Some of the slave owners probably WERE homosexuals and exploited their slaves for sex. The history records hint at this possibility.

By the way, the majority of african americans are opposed to gay marriage, just for your information. It looks like your civil rights analogy just broke down.

 

[naotmaa]

Some of these Christians argue that homosexuals ARE slaves to their own perverted desires.

I don't think that can be compared to the type of slavery that existed in the U.S.

The Presybyterian Church barred slave owners from ordination.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/scotts/bulgarians/church.html

Yay. Unfortunately, there were other Christians who were completely fine with having slaves. Not all but there was.

Some of the slave owners probably WERE homosexuals and exploited their slaves for sex. The history records hint at this possibility.

Yeah just as there were slave owners who would rape the women slaves. Bad people come in all shapes and sizes.

By the way, the majority of african americans are opposed to gay marriage, just for your information. It looks like your civil rights analogy just broke down.

Umm...
civil rights
pl.n.

The rights belonging to an individual by virtue of citizenship, especially the fundamental freedoms and privileges guaranteed by the 13th and 14th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution and by subsequent acts of Congress, including civil liberties, due process, equal protection of the laws, and freedom from discrimination.
(answers.com)


The majority of people in the U.S. did not support interracial marriage. Yet it was legalized anyway. And I think we can all agree that was a good thing.

 

[Zaac]

A kingdom divided can not stand. That is what the Savior tells us. In the history of Christendom there have been divisions over theology, but never has there been a division over the definition of sin. But now we have carnality knocking at the door, and it’s a false teaching as old as the church.

1) It does not teach repentance rather it teaches sinners are ok just like they are.

2) It teaches that immutable sexual orientation is a god that is greater than the Savior.

3) It teaches a message of confusion to non-believers where there are two different brands of Christianity but only one Christ.

4) The world looks to fundamental Christianity as the doctrinal basis, and they are supposed to believe fundamental Christianity has it all wrong according to this other group. This is an exceedingly poor witness.

5) The churches that honor the truth grow, and those that stray from the truth die just like the bible said they would.


Who will step forward and honor Christ with a good testimony?

You've got me wanting to do one of those Aunt Esther of Sanford and Son "H'oh Glories"

AMEN and AMEN and AMEN!!!!