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A Kinder, more Professional Thread on the WTC

Vylo

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I think most people who believe the government engineered 9/11 would believe that they did not care at all about the people there, as they were breaking a few eggs to make an omlete.

Personally I don't buy into the government organizing 9/11. I am somewhat suspicious about the possibility of them allowing it to happen, but I really haven't seen enough evidence to back up such a scenario.
 
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Prophetable

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Alarum said:
Seriously, stop drawing silly conclusions. The entire body of the steel would quickly hit the heat of the fire. .

The whole body of steel??? That's a lot of steel.

Besides, suffice to say, the temperatures in the building would never have reached levels to sufficiently weaken the steel.

The buildings were designed for impact from a 707.
This of course would take into account the velocity of the aircraft and the subsequent fuel spill.

As the following pic demonstrates there isn't much of a difference at all between a 707 and a 767.

attachment.php
 
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Arkanin

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Why wasn't WTC7 in much of the news, too? I didn't even know that another building had collapsed until now; that is how ignorant I was of this. The fact that another building just collapsed should have been a much bigger story, even on 9/11. This is not because it is a destroyed building, but because it appears to have happened under such bizarre circumstances. I want to learn more about this, because having just discovered that this happened, it is a mystery to me.

Anyway, I have a lot of electrical engineering experience. I have had jobs designing semiconductors instead of buildings (don't do EE anymore, just don't like it, hah), but the basic principle of unexplained things skewing your on-paper results is the same. Here is the thing about engineering in general: when something that is mathematically impossible happens, it means there is something you did not account for, but that is almost never a conspiracy and that sort of thing happens all the time. Some tiny factor you would never expect can make a big, and I do mean a big, difference.

These are usually wickedly subtle nuances that you would not expect, and the fact that they are hard to find does not mean they do not exist. Is it possible that synergy of the heat and force of the explosion could critically damage the steel, leading to structural failure later? How long would it take for the building to collapse given various extents of structural damage? Could some condition of its age or a chemical have affected the steel's strength? Some other force? What about wind (it was minimal), what about the plumbing, and what about the butterfly that flapped its wings in Africa? Could there have been bombs on the terrorists on the planes? Could the synergy of these forces and other things have done her in? I find that believable as an engineer, whereas the possibility of a massive government conspiracy is hard to measure but still remote.

So, I find it hard to imagine that 9/11 is a conspiracy. I could very easily believe that FEMA or some other group did not show all the evidence mainly to cover its own ass because it screwed up for one reason or another in a failure of prevention, investigation, and / or response to 9/11. This is just much more reconcilable with the way people are. It is much less likely that a lot of American politicians got together and decided to blow up the WTC so they could go to war with someone.

All the same, I'm much more disturbed by the WTC7 collapse than the WTC 1 / 2 collapses. I find it a little more plausible that WTC7 could have been intentionally demolished: first, all of it is too abrupt and orderly, and second, something about the plumes of smoke just does not seem organic. That is just my gut. All the same, if so, it should seem far more likely that someone blew it up out of a desire to protect themselves from looking like a screw up -- not because of some massive government-encompasing conspiracy. In other words, I rationally believe that our government is corrupt, but it's not that sick, and if they knew who blew it up (if it was blown up), the parties would be punished.
 
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morningstar2651

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KalEl76 said:
All this talk of engineering speak(I'm an idiot on the matter), however what about all the shops and subway underneath the WTC? Honestly, if the government was going to blow the WTC, wouldn't they have to worry not about the people on ground level but the one's below?
If the government were going to blow up the WTC, you'd hear things like "It's a shame it was destroyed, they were remodelling it."
 
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Arkanin

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Actually, after reading more, I have found a website claiming that the controller of the WTC complex, on PBS, announced that he ordered WTC-7's intentional demolition to minimize hazard and risk of collateral damage after the 9/11 attacks: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/cutter.html

Can anyone confirm this? If so, this is not an unreasonable thing to do, necessarily, as having the building fall down in a controlled way is much better than having it fall down in an uncontrolled way. Can anyone confirm that this is what was said by the guy? It would certainly explain why WTC7 got blown up, and give us good reason to believe that there was nothing below-board going on there. Of course, this would also tell us that FEMA lied for some reason, which is odd, but it still probably has to do with covering their ass and not some massive conspiracy.
 
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Prophetable

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Arkanin said:
Here is the thing about engineering in general: when something that is mathematically impossible happens, it means there is something you did not account for, but that is almost never a conspiracy and that sort of thing happens all the time. Some tiny factor you would never expect can make a big, and I do mean a big, difference.

.

Remember this happened not to one tower but two towers. This isn't a "something wen't wrong we don't have a mathematical reason for yet."

I believe the thing we didn't account for is demolition explosives on the steel support cores.

Also Conspiracy is far more possible mathematically. Conspiracies exist. Just look at what Hitler did to the Jews.
 
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Prophetable

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Vylo said:
[/B]

2 virtually identical towers. If something was missed on one, guess what, it will probably be the same on the other tower.

The two collisions weren't identical.


Pic 1

attachment.php


This is the North Tower:

- Collision 8:45 am
- Collapse 10:29 am
- 1 hour 44 minutes from collision to collapse.

In this instance the plane flew straight into the core of the building.



Pic 2

attachment.php


South Tower

- Collision 9:03 am
- Collapse 9:50 am
- 47 minutes only from collision to collapse.



The South Tower collision was far less severe than the North Tower. The fuel and plane was not facing the Core like in the North Tower. Yet it collapsed in less than half the time?
 
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Prophetable

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Vylo said:
Possibly due to the greater severity of outer structural damage to the south tower. Also don't forget that if the north tower had a more contained explosion, there would be less air to fuel the fire.

No way - The central core is the spine of the building. The outer structural damage is of minor consequence compared to damage to the core.

Also regardless of any possible containment of the initial explosion, the jet fuel was still there to burn in the North Tower more central to the core, whereas in the South Tower it wasn't. Additionally I don't understand how anyone could assume that the South Tower fire had more access to air than the North tower.

Nevertheless, in either building once the jet fuel had quickly burnt out, the temperature of the fire would have dropped quickly.

Also, and this puts your contention totally to rest. The extent of the spread of fire was far greater in the North Tower than the South. This would seem logical too, that the fire would spread more rapidly from the centre of the building.
 
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Prophetable

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This link shows a woman standing at the edge where the plane smashed into WTC1.
Obviously she had survived the initial impact.
She was later tentatively identified by her husband. This was taken from authentic video footage.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc1_fire.html

Below is a teaser for the link:

attachment.php


The page also goes into the temperature of the fires in the building.
 
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Arkanin

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Prophetable said:
Remember this happened not to one tower but two towers. This isn't a "something wen't wrong we don't have a mathematical reason for yet."

I believe the thing we didn't account for is demolition explosives on the steel support cores.

Also Conspiracy is far more possible mathematically. Conspiracies exist. Just look at what Hitler did to the Jews.

Yeah, but the towers had very similar properties. It is very reasonable to think there must have been something about both towers, being almost the same in design, that the engineers have not accounted for. Seemingly tiny details can make a huge difference in things like this. We should try to figure out what that is rather than just jump to 'conspiracy'.
 
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Arkanin

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The South Tower collision was far less severe than the North Tower. The fuel and plane was not facing the Core like in the North Tower. Yet it collapsed in less than half the time?

"Less Severe" is a subjective measurement, and I don't have the specialized degree and information needed to tell you whether this should have happened sooner when it got hit at a more skewed angle. Is there anyone here with structural engineering experience that has looked into this, and thoughts?

I think a more reasonable link would be http://www.caddigest.com/subjects/wtc/select/clifton/p1.htm , which is from a much more accredited source. The author states that "The effect of the impacts can only be assessed in light of these details, in particular the devastatingly high local impact force on the buildings from the planes [. . . ] On the basis of what I have seen and heard reported to date, it is my opinion that the effect of the fire was of much less importance than the effect of the initial impact." This fellow, a structural engineer with seventeen years of experience specialized in designing steel buildings and proofing these buildings against hazards, is also amazed that they stood even as long as they did.
 
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arnegrim

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Prophetable said:
No way - The central core is the spine of the building. The outer structural damage is of minor consequence compared to damage to the core.

Also regardless of any possible containment of the initial explosion, the jet fuel was still there to burn in the North Tower more central to the core, whereas in the South Tower it wasn't. Additionally I don't understand how anyone could assume that the South Tower fire had more access to air than the North tower.

Nevertheless, in either building once the jet fuel had quickly burnt out, the temperature of the fire would have dropped quickly.

Also, and this puts your contention totally to rest. The extent of the spread of fire was far greater in the North Tower than the South. This would seem logical too, that the fire would spread more rapidly from the centre of the building.

No.

The fact that you keep ignoring is that the OUTER SKIN of the building was its main support structure. So it would make sense that if you do more damage to the outer skin... it will fall sooner.

Do some research into the building of the towers...
 
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Prophetable

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arnegrim said:
No.

The fact that you keep ignoring is that the OUTER SKIN of the building was its main support structure. So it would make sense that if you do more damage to the outer skin... it will fall sooner.

Do some research into the building of the towers...

First - Both buildings had damage to the "outer skin" on impact.

Secondly, the outer skin is not the main support structure. The core is. It's the CORE.
 
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Prophetable

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arnegrim said:
No.

The fact that you keep ignoring is that the OUTER SKIN of the building was its main support structure. So it would make sense that if you do more damage to the outer skin... it will fall sooner.

Do some research into the building of the towers...

No way - I've done plenty of research, howabout you? :D

The Core is the main support structure. Say what you've just said to me to any Construction Engineer and he will just laugh at you.

Let's go over some points again:

Both buildings were designed for plane impacts.

The Fires could not have significantly weakened the Steel Supports.

The Core Steel Supports would not collapse unless they were weakened, even if the rest of the building collapsed around them.

Any damage done to the supports by the initial crash would have been minor, when one considers the amount of supports in both the Core and the outer supports.

The load from any of these damaged supports would have been transferred to the remaining supports, of which there were plenty (If any supports were damaged by the impact in anyway!)
 
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