A journey out and then back in again

[NightEternal]

I am reading with interest Lightworker's thread in the D&D subforum. I wish I could contribute, but, alas, I am still confined here until the middle of December.

http://christianforums.com/t6413967-a-tall-idea.html

The issue of salvation by church membership and the importance/unimportance of denominational loyalty are very critical ones to discuss. I wasn't planning to share this with the forum, but in light of the exchange going on in that thread and the speculations and question being asked "where does one go when they leave the church?", I thought it would be pertinent to share a portion of my journey concerning where I personally went.

There was a period of time in my life, a couple of years ago, when I got so fed up with traditional Adventism that I left the church. For about a year I attended a Seventh Day Baptist church. I never officially took my name off the books and I never told anyone I knew that I was leaving. I just left. I needed a break big time. My wife remained in Adventism, as she was raised in the church and couldn't bring herself to join me.

It is probably not very common for someone who has left the SDA church to return, but that is exactly what happened. During the course of that year, I was finding that I was having just as many issues with the SDB's in doctrinal areas as Adventism. I could not find many things I could relate to in thier eschatology and some of thier interpretations of Revelation and Daniel were, to say the least, out in left field (that is, if any attempt at all was made to study and discuss these important books.)

I loved thier emphasis on grace and the righteousness of Christ as well as the powerful contemporary music worship services. It was nice to not have the spectre of EGW overshadowing everything also.

However, they weren't taking as much of a hardline Protestant stance as I would have liked. There was no clear prophetic interpretation on anything, and the three angel's message was not even addressed or acknowledged. It's like it didn't exist to them at all, even though it is right there in Scripture.

Bible studies were quite interesting. They often looked at me like I was an alien, wondering where I was getting this stuff from!

So, as it stands now, my approach to Adventism is pretty much the same as the one I take with EGW: Accept and incorporate what is good, discard the rest. There will never be a church that I agree 100% with, and right now the good outweighs the bad in Adventism for me.

Who knows where God will lead in the future though. Contrary to what some think, there is life after Adventism.

 

[Sophia7]

I couldn't be a member of a church that is dogmatic about certain parts of Daniel and Revelation because I don't know what to believe about some of those prophecies right now, but I do believe that a lot of the Adventist interpretations are wrong.

I don't know where God will lead in the future either, but I doubt that I could ever return to Adventism. My areas of disagreement are just too fundamental. Yes, there is life after Adventism.

 

[AndrewK788]

I am reading with interest Lightworker's thread in the D&D subforum. I wish I could contribute, but, alas, I am still confined here until the middle of December.

The issue of salvation by church membership and the importance/unimportance of denominational loyalty are very critical ones to discuss. I wasn't planning to share this with the forum, but in light of the exchange going on in that thread and the speculations and question being asked "where does one go when they leave the church?", I thought it would be pertinent to share a portion of my journey concerning where I personally went.

There was a period of time in my life, a couple of years ago, when I got so fed up with traditional Adventism that I left the church. For about a year I attended a Seventh Day Baptist church. I never officially took my name off the books and I never told anyone I knew that I was leaving. I just left. I needed a break big time. My wife remained in Adventism, as she was raised in the church and couldn't bring herself to join me.

It is probably not very common for someone who has left the SDA church to return, but that is exactly what happened. During the course of that year, I was finding that I was having just as many issues with the SDB's in doctrinal areas as Adventism. I could not find many things I could relate to in thier eschatology and some of thier interpretations of Revelation and Daniel were, to say the least, out in left field (that is, if any attempt at all was made to study and discuss these important books.)

I loved thier emphasis on grace and the righteousness of Christ as well as the powerful contemporary music worship services. It was nice to not have the spectre of EGW overshadowing everything also, which it seems to even in the most liberal SDA churches.

However, they weren't taking as much of a hardline Protestant stance as I would have liked. There was no clear prophetic interpretation on anything, and the three angel's message was not even addressed or acknowledged. It's like it didn't exist to them at all, even though it is right there in Scripture.

Bible studies were quite interesting. They often looked at me like I was an alien, wondering where I was getting this stuff from!

So, as it stands now, my approach to Adventism is pretty much the same as the one I take with EGW: Accept and incorporate what is good, discard the rest. There will never be a church that I agree 100% with, and right now the good outweighs the bad in Adventism for me.

Who knows where God will lead in the future though. Contrary to what some think, there is life after Adventism.

There definitely is nothing exclusive about SDAs, regardless of how many times we call ourselves God's chosen church. I believe God may have used our church to preserve certain truthes, such as the Sabbath, state of the dead, the interpretation of Hell etc. But when all is said and done it doesn't matter whether you were affiliated with the SDAs, the Mormons, the Catholics, so long as you loved and accepted Christ as your Savior and took the Bible as your only guide. I could take this even a step further, though I won't, because I'm not sure even the prog subforum is ready to hear it and I'm sure I'd hit some criticism. My views on this are incredibly strong and well thought out though.

There most certainly is life after Adventism. There is life before Adventism. And there is life entirely isolated from Adventism. Personally, I do believe we are the one church that has the most truth. That is, no church is perfect as they are all made up of fallible humans, but as NE said, the good outweighs the bad in the SDA church. I do believe God chose and used our church to carry out a special work, but just as the case is now, I believe SDAs will be a minority in Heaven.

 

[mva1985]

I am reading with interest Lightworker's thread in the D&D subforum. I wish I could contribute, but, alas, I am still confined here until the middle of December.

http://foru.ms/t6413967-a-tall-idea.html

The issue of salvation by church membership and the importance/unimportance of denominational loyalty are very critical ones to discuss. I wasn't planning to share this with the forum, but in light of the exchange going on in that thread and the speculations and question being asked "where does one go when they leave the church?", I thought it would be pertinent to share a portion of my journey concerning where I personally went.

There was a period of time in my life, a couple of years ago, when I got so fed up with traditional Adventism that I left the church. For about a year I attended a Seventh Day Baptist church. I never officially took my name off the books and I never told anyone I knew that I was leaving. I just left. I needed a break big time. My wife remained in Adventism, as she was raised in the church and couldn't bring herself to join me.

It is probably not very common for someone who has left the SDA church to return, but that is exactly what happened. During the course of that year, I was finding that I was having just as many issues with the SDB's in doctrinal areas as Adventism. I could not find many things I could relate to in thier eschatology and some of thier interpretations of Revelation and Daniel were, to say the least, out in left field (that is, if any attempt at all was made to study and discuss these important books.)

I loved thier emphasis on grace and the righteousness of Christ as well as the powerful contemporary music worship services. It was nice to not have the spectre of EGW overshadowing everything also, which it seems to even in the most liberal SDA churches.

However, they weren't taking as much of a hardline Protestant stance as I would have liked. There was no clear prophetic interpretation on anything, and the three angel's message was not even addressed or acknowledged. It's like it didn't exist to them at all, even though it is right there in Scripture.

Bible studies were quite interesting. They often looked at me like I was an alien, wondering where I was getting this stuff from!

So, as it stands now, my approach to Adventism is pretty much the same as the one I take with EGW: Accept and incorporate what is good, discard the rest. There will never be a church that I agree 100% with, and right now the good outweighs the bad in Adventism for me.

Who knows where God will lead in the future though. Contrary to what some think, there is life after Adventism.

Night,

Thanks for sharing this.

 

[Mankin]

I am reading with interest Lightworker's thread in the D&D subforum. I wish I could contribute, but, alas, I am still confined here until the middle of December.

http://foru.ms/t6413967-a-tall-idea.html

The issue of salvation by church membership and the importance/unimportance of denominational loyalty are very critical ones to discuss. I wasn't planning to share this with the forum, but in light of the exchange going on in that thread and the speculations and question being asked "where does one go when they leave the church?", I thought it would be pertinent to share a portion of my journey concerning where I personally went.

There was a period of time in my life, a couple of years ago, when I got so fed up with traditional Adventism that I left the church. For about a year I attended a Seventh Day Baptist church. I never officially took my name off the books and I never told anyone I knew that I was leaving. I just left. I needed a break big time. My wife remained in Adventism, as she was raised in the church and couldn't bring herself to join me.

It is probably not very common for someone who has left the SDA church to return, but that is exactly what happened. During the course of that year, I was finding that I was having just as many issues with the SDB's in doctrinal areas as Adventism. I could not find many things I could relate to in thier eschatology and some of thier interpretations of Revelation and Daniel were, to say the least, out in left field (that is, if any attempt at all was made to study and discuss these important books.)

I loved thier emphasis on grace and the righteousness of Christ as well as the powerful contemporary music worship services. It was nice to not have the spectre of EGW overshadowing everything also, which it seems to even in the most liberal SDA churches.

However, they weren't taking as much of a hardline Protestant stance as I would have liked. There was no clear prophetic interpretation on anything, and the three angel's message was not even addressed or acknowledged. It's like it didn't exist to them at all, even though it is right there in Scripture.

Bible studies were quite interesting. They often looked at me like I was an alien, wondering where I was getting this stuff from!

So, as it stands now, my approach to Adventism is pretty much the same as the one I take with EGW: Accept and incorporate what is good, discard the rest. There will never be a church that I agree 100% with, and right now the good outweighs the bad in Adventism for me.

Who knows where God will lead in the future though. Contrary to what some think, there is life after Adventism.

Excellent post Night.

 

[annie1speed]

Quote:
However, they weren't taking as much of a hardline Protestant stance as I would have liked. There was no clear prophetic interpretation on anything, and the three angel's message was not even addressed or acknowledged. It's like it didn't exist to them at all, even though it is right there in Scripture. End Quote

Adventism puts so much emphasis on the three angel's message. To the rest of Christianity the three angel's message is one part of many things to study in the Bible, not a basis for an entire belief system. I can understand why you may feel that not enough emphasis was placed on it, but can you understand why other churches do not consider it of primary importance?

Hope I'm not out of line here. If I am I am sure someone will set me straight. Ducking now....

Annie

 

[StormyOne]

the ongoing problem I have is simple.... what do angels mean in prophetic language? The bible says that the angels proclaimed their message, so why do we interpret that as people preaching the 3 angels message? Especially in light of the fact that there are 3 other angels in that same chapter that are ignored, no one is suggesting that people engage in the work of those 2nd set of three angels... so I see an inconsistent interpretation......

 

[Sophia7]

the ongoing problem I have is simple.... what do angels mean in prophetic language? The bible says that the angels proclaimed their message, so why do we interpret that as people preaching the 3 angels message? Especially in light of the fact that there are 3 other angels in that same chapter that are ignored, no one is suggesting that people engage in the work of those 2nd set of three angels... so I see an inconsistent interpretation......

Exactly. The three angels in Rev. 14:6-12 are only three in the midst of a long line of angels.

REV 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth--to every nation, tribe, language and people.
​

 

[StormyOne]

Exactly. The three angels in Rev. 14:6-12 are only three in the midst of a long line of angels.

REV 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth--to every nation, tribe, language and people.
​

I find it interesting that we interpret everything literal unless it seems to be symbolic but NO one that I have talked to about this issue has EVER given me an explanation for why Rev 14 is interpreted as it is.... if the people receiving the message are literal i.e. every nation, tongue and people.... then why aren't the angels literal? If the people are symbolic, what do angels represent in symbolic language? Seems like those are simple questions that someone should be able to answer without a whole lot of biblical gymnastics....

 

[mva1985]

Quote:
However, they weren't taking as much of a hardline Protestant stance as I would have liked. There was no clear prophetic interpretation on anything, and the three angel's message was not even addressed or acknowledged. It's like it didn't exist to them at all, even though it is right there in Scripture. End Quote

Adventism puts so much emphasis on the three angel's message. To the rest of Christianity the three angel's message is one part of many things to study in the Bible, not a basis for an entire belief system. I can understand why you may feel that not enough emphasis was placed on it, but can you understand why other churches do not consider it of primary importance?

Hope I'm not out of line here. If I am I am sure someone will set me straight. Ducking now....

Annie

Part of the three angels message IS proclaiming the gospel, and that is preaching the Word. Think of it as a summation of what we are suppose to do.

 

[StormyOne]

Part of the three angels message IS proclaiming the gospel, and that is preaching the Word. Think of it as a summation of what we are suppose to do.

that's what you say, that is not what the bible says....

 

[mva1985]

that's what you say, that is not what the bible says....

Rev. 14

6 Then I saw another angel (#1 angel) flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
8 And another angel (#2 angel) followed, saying, “Babylon[f] is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”
9 Then a third angel (#3 angel) followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those[g] who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me,[h] “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

Pretty simple math in my book.

 

[AndrewK788]

Rev. 14

6 Then I saw another angel (#1 angel) flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
8 And another angel (#2 angel) followed, saying, “Babylon[f] is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”
9 Then a third angel (#3 angel) followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those[g] who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me,[h] “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

Pretty simple math in my book.

Hmm, I'd have to agree with mva on this one.

 

[StormyOne]

Rev. 14

6 Then I saw another angel (#1 angel) flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
8 And another angel (#2 angel) followed, saying, “Babylon[f] is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”
9 Then a third angel (#3 angel) followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those[g] who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me,[h] “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

Pretty simple math in my book.

adventist eyes have obscured your view..... the texts say that the angels proclaim their message... it does not say that humans do the preaching.... deal with that one first... then deal with the fact that there are 3 more angels in that chapter that are ignored... if you believe that people do the work of the 1st three angels, then why don't humans do the work of the 2nd set of three angels?

Lastly, in prophetic language, what do angels represent....

 

[StormyOne]

Hmm, I'd have to agree with mva on this one.

see post 14, answer the questions.....

 

[StormyOne]

Rev 14:15-20 And another angel came out of the temple, crying in a great voice to Him sitting on the cloud, Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth was dried. (16) And He sitting on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped. (17) And another angel came out of the temple in Heaven, also having a sharp sickle. (18) And another angel came out from the altar, who had authority over fire. And he spoke with a great cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in your sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe. (19) And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the anger of God. (20) And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even to the bridles of the horses, for the space of a thousand, six hundred stadia.


In the passage above there are 3 more angels... why are they ignored? In essence some have suggested that humans do the work of the angels found in the first part of Rev 14. What method of interpretation allows one set of angels to be symbolic of humans and the 2nd set of angels in the same chapter to be interpreted as literal? Makes no sense...

 

[mva1985]

Angels are messengers.

And as always whenever something can be interpreted literally that's what we do unless of course it is obviously symbolic.

 

[AndrewK788]

Rev 14:15-20 And another angel came out of the temple, crying in a great voice to Him sitting on the cloud, Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth was dried. (16) And He sitting on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped. (17) And another angel came out of the temple in Heaven, also having a sharp sickle. (18) And another angel came out from the altar, who had authority over fire. And he spoke with a great cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in your sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe. (19) And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the anger of God. (20) And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even to the bridles of the horses, for the space of a thousand, six hundred stadia.


In the passage above there are 3 more angels... why are they ignored? In essence some have suggested that humans do the work of the angels found in the first part of Rev 14. What method of interpretation allows one set of angels to be symbolic of humans and the 2nd set of angels in the same chapter to be interpreted as literal? Makes no sense...

Okay, I see what you're saying. So assuming it isn't humans, do you think the 1st angel will literally carry the gospel throughout the earth?

And I'm not being sarcastic lol. I've never heard this side of it before and I'm interested.

 

[StormyOne]

Angels are messengers.

And as always whenever something can be interpreted literally that's what we do unless of course it is obviously symbolic.

you didn't answer the question.... as I expected.... human messengers for part of Rev 14 and literal angels for the second part of Rev 14..... yeah, that works.... sorry I don't share your view...

 

[StormyOne]

Okay, I see what you're saying. So assuming it isn't humans, do you think the 1st angel will literally carry the gospel throughout the earth?

And I'm not being sarcastic lol. I've never heard this side of it before and I'm interested.

the question is what do angels represent in prophetic language..... when are they literal and when are they symbolic? In all the prophecy I have ever seen interpreted, angels always mean literal angels... except for adventists in Rev 14 the 1st part.... every where else angels are viewed as literal..... everywhere.... except Rev 14..... that makes no sense....