A gospel we are afraid to preach....

[HoneyDew]

@Vaudois: tell me about a newborn child, born into an Adventist home. To whom does that child belong? God or Satan?

 

[Vaudois]

Does a baby have free will yet?

 

[HoneyDew]

When do you submit that freewill comes to the human?

 

[Vaudois]

No particularlly set times; whenever conscience is violated or obeyed in a morally testing situation. When either rebellion or obedience is chosen. But this must be a repeated choice, as fallen man is given much mercy. Christ has been here; He knows what we are going through through our growing up, whether unto Him or unto Self and Satan.

 

[StormyOne]

"Belonging" for cattle is quite different than free moral agents choosing who is their spiritual father.

Please explain:

"Their works testified of their relationship to him who was a liar and a murderer. "Ye are of your father the devil," said Jesus, "and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and stood not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. . . . Because I say the truth, ye believe Me not." John 8:44, 45, R. V. The fact that Jesus spoke the truth, and that with certainty, was why He was not received by the Jewish leaders. It was the truth that offended these self-righteous men. The truth exposed the fallacy of error; it condemned their teaching and practice, and it was unwelcome. They would rather close their eyes to the truth than humble themselves to confess that they had been in error. They did not love the truth. They did not desire it, even though it was truth."

Our works determine who is our father, not our physical birthing process.

To say "that is an insane idea" does not mean the speaker is mentally inbalanced. If I say that you have a "heavenly personality", that does not mean you are there in heaven yet.

You have jokes... I still disagree.... do you have kids? Regardless of your childs behavior good or bad, they are yours... you may not want to claim them but they are yours.... so your premise that our "works" determine who is our parent in my opinion is flawed.... we have no works. All of our works are as filthy rags or are you overlooking that fact...if we were dependent on them then we are in serious trouble....

I maintain that The Creator created us, and we belong to him... who does lucifer belong to? God, because God created him too.... so I have no problem saying that all creation belongs to God.... so I guess we are done here... you will not convince me that all do not belong to God nor will you be convinced that all do.... moving on....

 

[Vaudois]

Notice EGW grammer closely, Honeydew:

"Christ placed such a high estimate upon your children that He gave His life for them. Treat them as the purchase of His blood. Patiently and firmly train them for Him. Discipline with love and forbearance. As you do this, they will become a crown of rejoicing to you and will shine as lights in the world.
The youngest child that loves and fears God is greater in His sight than the most talented and learned man who neglects the great salvation. The youth who consecrate their hearts and lives to God have, in so doing, placed themselves in connection with the Fountain of all wisdom and excellence. {AH 279.2}

Nothing about automatic ownership here. Cows, birds and fish are automatically owned, but free moral agents must choose, when they become free to be morally responsible.

Oh... and being born into a Christian family is a great advantage, if parents are trully born again, and not relying on Church membership.

It's a opportunity not a birthright.

Jacob had to learn that the hard way!

 

[StormyOne]

Notice EGW grammer closely, Honeydew:

"Christ placed such a high estimate upon your children that He gave His life for them. Treat them as the purchase of His blood. Patiently and firmly train them for Him. Discipline with love and forbearance. As you do this, they will become a crown of rejoicing to you and will shine as lights in the world.
The youngest child that loves and fears God is greater in His sight than the most talented and learned man who neglects the great salvation. The youth who consecrate their hearts and lives to God have, in so doing, placed themselves in connection with the Fountain of all wisdom and excellence. {AH 279.2}

Nothing about automatic ownership here. Cows, birds and fish are automatically owned, but free moral agents must choose, when they become free to be morally responsible.

Oh... and being born into a Christian family is a great advantage, if parents are trully born again, and not relying on Church membership.

It's a opportunity not a birthright.

Jacob had to learn that the hard way!

I disagree still (even though this wasn't addressed to me) and EGW was never wrong? We have to choose NOT to be His, because He is making every effort to remind us, awaken us to the fact that we are His... We are His and we don't realize it. Probably because we have bought into the idea that we aren't His until we choose.... that idea I am sure did not originate with God... probably started in the minds of religious leaders and was passed on as "truth" though it is the tradition of men....

 

[HoneyDew]

@Vaudois: If that newborn baby died, Vaudois, what happens to him/her? Is that child consigned to eternal damnation or life?
None of us mortals breathe one breath without God. If we are not His, but the devil's, why are we alive? Can Satan keep us living?
We are God's children. We were kidnapped and brainwashed, but His loving act redeems us. We are His before we were born and we have to chose to belong to the Accuser.
EGW was not always theologically as advanced as some of us now are. She had vision, but she also was bound by the knowledge of her day. All of us are, prophets or not.

God is Love.

 

[HoneyDew]

@Vaudois: I noted the EGW grammar.
If that newborn baby died, Vaudois, what happens to him/her? Is that child consigned to eternal damnation or life?
None of us mortals breathe one breath without God. If we are not His, but the devil's, why are we alive? Can Satan keep us living?
We are God's children. We were kidnapped and brainwashed, but His loving act redeems us. We are His before we were born and we have to chose to belong to the Accuser.
EGW was not always theologically as advanced as some of us now are. She had vision, but she also was bound by the knowledge of her day. All of us are, prophets or not.

God is Love.

 

[Vaudois]

Honeydew: You said "EGW was not always theologically as advanced as some of us now are."

Are you including yourself in this "More advanced then a Messenger of God" group?

Can you tell me who is more advanced? Names?


Again: a baby is not an activated free moral agent yet. Therefore they are innocent until tried. Therefore they will be given life again at the resurrection. Then their education will begin....and education 1000 years long and with no "death, sin or sickness" around to hamper them.

However, the Bible facts state:

We are all born in a condition of bondage to sin in this manner:

We are born in prison to the slavery our human race finds itself in; the love of self and error. Jesus came to break the bonds, not rationalize them away. All inherit a weakened human state, which has a relish for selfishness first and love for God and truth way down the list of priorities.

 

[StormyOne]

Honeydew: You said "EGW was not always theologically as advanced as some of us now are."

Are you including yourself in this "More advanced then a Messenger of God" group?

Can you tell me who is more advanced? Names?


Again: a baby is not an activated free moral agent yet. Therefore they are innocent until tried. Therefore they will be given life again at the resurrection. Then their education will begin....and education 1000 years long and with no "death, sin or sickness" around to hamper them.

However, the Bible facts state:

We are all born in a condition of bondage to sin in this manner:

We are born in prison to the slavery our human race finds itself in; the love of self and error. Jesus came to break the bonds, not rationalize them away. All inherit a weakened human state, which has a relish for selfishness first and love for God and truth way down the list of priorities.

you miss the main point or refuse to believe it... we belong to Him... we start out that way, and He does everything He can to help us understand that we belong to Him... He attempts to convince us that through Him we have been emancipated....

 

[HoneyDew]

Honeydew: You said "EGW was not always theologically as advanced as some of us now are."

Are you including yourself in this "More advanced then a Messenger of God" group?

Can you tell me who is more advanced? Names?

Somehow I missed this reply yesterday. LOL

Vaudois, simply go to some recent threads -- you will see the exchange between members. I believe it was Tall and Woobadooba, if I am not mistaken. Both made some valid points in my opinion, regarding the theologically correctness in some instances of the Adventist pioneers and how they grew in understanding. I am sure we in 2005 have grown even more now. Learning is not stagnant.
I am not going to telling who is more advanced than whom. That is not my concern and never will be. I am more concerned about my walk with Christ. That is all.


Peace

 

[Vaudois]

"Pioneers" and the Lord's Messenger (EGW) are not the same persons, functions or servants of Christ in office .

Pioneers cannot be compared with the Spirit of Prophecy, due to Who was chosing to instruct whom directly. It is His call, not some evolutionary intellectual process.

You specifically declared ""EGW was not always theologically as advanced as some of us now are."

I am surprised that you are not willing to share with others whom you consider more theologically advanced the EGW... OR the Pioneers.
Is this a secret club?
Are you saving this knowledge for friends?
Can you at least invite these great sages to this forum to shed this wonderous knowledge to the darkened corners of this forum....please?

 

[Vaudois]

Advancing light never comes at the cost of downgrading those whom God has appointed for a Task.

If in your eyes, EGW was not a Messenger of God, than...that's your trip.

 

[StormyOne]

Advancing light never comes at the cost of downgrading those whom God has appointed for a Task.

If in your eyes, EGW was not a Messenger of God, than...that's your trip.

Vaudois,
That statement does a disservice to egw, for if one looks at the things she wrote as a young woman, then compare those things she wrote as she was a much older woman one will notice growth in her understanding about God, and what God would have her do... She did not know "everything" about God, nor did God give her instant and complete knowledge about who He was...

Had she lived longer you would no doubt seen more growth and understanding...

 

[HoneyDew]

"Pioneers" and the Lord's Messenger (EGW) are not the same persons, functions or servants of Christ in office .

Pioneers cannot be compared with the Spirit of Prophecy, due to Who was chosing to instruct whom directly. It is His call, not some evolutionary intellectual process.

You specifically declared ""EGW was not always theologically as advanced as some of us now are."

I am surprised that you are not willing to share with others whom you consider more theologically advanced the EGW... OR the Pioneers.
Is this a secret club?
Are you saving this knowledge for friends?
Can you at least invite these great sages to this forum to shed this wonderous knowledge to the darkened corners of this forum....please?

You are being insulting. Kindly understand that I am not getting into a debate with you regarding the validity of anyone or anything. Kindly understand that you are assuming quite a lot about me and my intentions and I would rather you did not.
I am not in the mood to spar. If you wish to invite great sages to this forum, be my guest. It is neither here nor there.

 

[HoneyDew]

Advancing light never comes at the cost of downgrading those whom God has appointed for a Task.

If in your eyes, EGW was not a Messenger of God, than...that's your trip.

You should take the time to ask instead of reacting to a non-issue. The assumptions are broad reaching. Be careful that you don't do a disservice when assuming.
I am very much through with this.

 

[HoneyDew]

Vaudois,
That statement does a disservice to egw, for if one looks at the things she wrote as a young woman, then compare those things she wrote as she was a much older woman one will notice growth in her understanding about God, and what God would have her do... She did not know "everything" about God, nor did God give her instant and complete knowledge about He was...

Had she lived longer you would no doubt seen more growth and understanding...

Could you repeat that?

 

[Vaudois]

Take the time to ask? I 've asked 7 questions in the past 2 days...No answers.

Claims have been made about "advanced theology", superior to EGW...no proof has been offered...

You have been "insulted"?? Misunderstood?

I rather think it is Inspiration that has been maligned, not the Honeydew.

I ask that YOU bring these "sages" of advanced wisdom here to help this forum, not that I had any.

If you are "through"before any starting of evidence to your claims, that that is sad and your right, of course.

Who knows what we may have missed in this advocation of "advanced" and current wisdom.

Bye...

 

[HoneyDew]

That statement does a disservice to egw, for if one looks at the things she wrote as a young woman, then compare those things she wrote as she was a much older woman one will notice growth in her understanding about God, and what God would have her do... She did not know "everything" about God, nor did God give her instant and complete knowledge about who He was...

Had she lived longer you would no doubt seen more growth and understanding...

Hey Storm, when you have some time, could you share with me examples of those comparisons? I wanted to send some to Kari. Thanks, dude.