A good question!

[Danoh]

Curt is definitely up there, as are a lot of those who went through Jordan's intensive curriculum. I love these guys. How they can open a Bible and just point out passage after passage from Genesis through Revelation for hours on end regardless of whether or not they are using their Bible or someone else's.

You attend one of their assemblies and in three months you have more Bible in you than the typical, four year seminary trained Pastor, let alone, years of sermons and studies where the typical 45 minutes covers between 80 to about 200 passages of Scripture, on top of what time you put into your studies on your own.

I remember years ago, I'd be running the passages in church service with the Pastor, taking notes, and running my own studies on one thing or another... fun times...

This one time, I bring this female to church service with me, who I was hoping would take an interest in the doctrine...

I'm sitting there, doing all the above, when she hands me a note...

I'm thinking, "Great! Maybe there's a future here!"

That didn't last long...

The note said, "What time is the service over, I wanna go shopping..."

True story, funny as heck, looking back on it now, lol

But, yeah, Curt has it - check out his comments on this other site:

https://romansthruphilemon.wordpress.com/category/curt-crist/curt-crist-articles/

 

[EverLearning1055]

Danoh, my husband studied under Richard Jordan and has spent time with him. He's been through most of the Grace School of the Bible, and we have a number of teaching tapes from there, too. The way you explain it sounds so much like my DH. I guess that's where it comes from!

 

[MWood]

Curt is definitely up there, as are a lot of those who went through Jordan's intensive curriculum. I love these guys. How they can open a Bible and just point out passage after passage from Genesis through Revelation for hours on end regardless of whether or not they are using their Bible or someone else's.

You attend one of their assemblies and in three months you have more Bible in you than the typical, four year seminary trained Pastor, let alone, years of sermons and studies where the typical 45 minutes covers between 80 to about 200 passages of Scripture, on top of what time you put into your studies on your own.

I remember years ago, I'd be running the passages in church service with the Pastor, taking notes, and running my own studies on one thing or another... fun times...

This one time, I bring this female to church service with me, who I was hoping would take an interest in the doctrine...

I'm sitting there, doing all the above, when she hands me a note...

I'm thinking, "Great! Maybe there's a future here!"

That didn't last long...

The note said, "What time is the service over, I wanna go shopping..."

True story, funny as heck, looking back on it now, lol

But, yeah, Curt has it - check out his comments on this other site:

https://romansthruphilemon.wordpress.com/category/curt-crist/curt-crist-articles/

LOL!

Thanks Danoh!

 

[EverLearning1055]

"The issue you are having trouble "wrapping your mind around" is one that has challenged many. So don't feel alone. In fact, it is so common that it actually has been given a name! The "Twelve In/Out" question--that is, did the Twelve Apostles (and those they ministered to in the Pentecostal church) become members of the Body of Christ or not. There are good men on both sides.

For me, the only way I know to answer the question is to let Peter, for example, speak for himself. While it is certain that at the conference detailed in Galatians 2 Peter and the Jerusalem saints were brought up to date on the change in the program as well as the fulness of the revelation of the cross work (e.g., I Pet. 3:18 is as clear as anything Paul writes about it), it is equally obvious that Peter didn't think he/his followers had become a part of the new program--his epistles identify him/his readers as still in their kingdom hope/program. Even his mentioning of Paul in II Pet. 3 is to explain why their program had been delayed, not how they had become part of something new.

So, to my thinking, Peter and the Little Flock remained in their hope of Matt. 19:28 and Luke 12:32.

After the agreement of Gal. 2:9 the kingdom program would not have been preached further to unbelieving Israel. Those already in that hope would have maintained their position, waiting for the new program to run its course. They would have no doubt expected it to be short lived--remember, Paul himself thought he would be alive at the time of the rapture (I Thess. 4:17--"we which are alive and remain"). So, Peter and the Little Flock were "in Christ" according to the prophetic program; the Body of Christ is "in Christ" according to the mystery program. "In Christ" is a redemptive term, not a dispensational one."

 

[MWood]

"The issue you are having trouble "wrapping your mind around" is one that has challenged many. So don't feel alone. In fact, it is so common that it actually has been given a name! The "Twelve In/Out" question--that is, did the Twelve Apostles (and those they ministered to in the Pentecostal church) become members of the Body of Christ or not. There are good men on both sides.

For me, the only way I know to answer the question is to let Peter, for example, speak for himself. While it is certain that at the conference detailed in Galatians 2 Peter and the Jerusalem saints were brought up to date on the change in the program as well as the fulness of the revelation of the cross work (e.g., I Pet. 3:18 is as clear as anything Paul writes about it), it is equally obvious that Peter didn't think he/his followers had become a part of the new program--his epistles identify him/his readers as still in their kingdom hope/program. Even his mentioning of Paul in II Pet. 3 is to explain why their program had been delayed, not how they had become part of something new.

So, to my thinking, Peter and the Little Flock remained in their hope of Matt. 19:28 and Luke 12:32.

After the agreement of Gal. 2:9 the kingdom program would not have been preached further to unbelieving Israel. Those already in that hope would have maintained their position, waiting for the new program to run its course. They would have no doubt expected it to be short lived--remember, Paul himself thought he would be alive at the time of the rapture (I Thess. 4:17--"we which are alive and remain"). So, Peter and the Little Flock were "in Christ" according to the prophetic program; the Body of Christ is "in Christ" according to the mystery program. "In Christ" is a redemptive term, not a dispensational one."

Thanks Everlearning! I'm glad you shared R. J.'s answer with us. Now I am smarter for having read it, for it confirmed my thinking, but I couldn't put it together as he did. Again thank you!

 

[Danoh]

Ever, would I be correct in guessing that did not answer your question to your satisfaction?

 

[EverLearning1055]

You would be correct, Danoh! Yet it's probably about as clear an explanation as I'm likely to get.

I can see the argument that they thought time was short and the fulness of the Gentiles was probably a short time away. It's clear from scripture that nobody expected the new Grace program to last a couple thousand years. Going back to my comments on the 20th, I still could see the Jewish believers holding fast to what the 12 taught due to various reasons, not the least of which might be a bit of national and religious pride. (the word pride is used in a positive not pejorative sense) This makes sense to me.

We've been listening to a few of Curt's messages. He's good. My husband was familiar with him. I might email him my question and see what he says

I guess it still sticks in my craw a bit why anyone would embrace the prophetic program when Grace was being offered. That's about as succinct I can pose my question.

 

[EverLearning1055]

MWood, you're welcome and thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. It's an interesting discussion (for me anyway) and I hope it will continue to grow.

 

[MWood]

MWood, you're welcome and thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. It's an interesting discussion (for me anyway) and I hope it will continue to grow.

Your welcome! And let us know what Curt says when you receive his answer.
Thanks

 

[Danoh]

Lol, Everlearning, but, anyway, the "no difference" is not as to prophesied and kept secret plan and purpose, rather, as to the means of purifying their hearts - by faith, Acts 15:9. This, in light of Rom. 3:21-26.

What you had at one point back then had been Jews in the prophesied plan and purpose under James, Cephas and John, and Jews and Gentiles in that once kept secret plan and purpose: the Body, under Paul.

This was why Paul was being accused of teaching Jews to forsake the Law, Acts 21:21.

Because, this side of the Mystery, of "all under sin" "them that know the Law" - Jews converted under Paul's ministry - "are become dead to the law by the body of Christ," Rom. 7:4.

Thus, there were, for a time on this earth, during the transition from God's Prophesied Circumcision Plan and Purpose, to His Kept Secret Uncircumcision Plan and Purpose - there were, during this transition, Jews in both.

They of the circumcision which had believed before Israel was concluded in Uncircumcision, at which point, said believing remnant had been sealed unto their Prophesied Plan and Purpose, and the rest of that nation concluded in Uncircumcision.

These Uncircumcision Jews were who Paul is observed preaching to in Acts.

Israel's Circumcision gospel cut off til the fulness of Paul's Uncircumcision gospel, those Jews wanting to obey God this side of that, had to come to Him through this Uncircumcision gospel, just as the Gentiles.

Due to this transition, both fellow citizens of the household of God - the Israel of God, and the Body of Christ, had for a time co-existed on this planet, as the one diminished while the other one grew to prominance.

 

[Danoh]

Too bad this forum does not have a Mid-Acts Safehouse - where those who are basically Mid-Acts can explore these issues further. In its place, I think I'll just ignore responding to others not Mid-Acts. For while I often learn something from their opposing posts, in light of Mid-Acts, nevertheless, theirs continues to be a one way street. Often what I learn from their posts being contrary to if not what they missed. A solid grounding in the Mystery being why I have been able to see what I have, even in the opposition!

 

[Danoh]

Interesting thread, when viewed in light of the Mid-Acts Perspective:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7847301/

 

[Danoh]

Eph3Nine [Christine Angel] was one of the sharpest Mid-Acts Bible Students this forum ever saw. I don't agree with her every point [as in the last sentence of the second to last paragraph of the following post of hers] but she was one sharp Mid-Actser!

The following post of her many, many posts shares with the subject of this thread, Everlearning, enjoy

http://www.christianforums.com/t3295623/

 

[MWood]

Eph3Nine [Christine Angel] was one of the sharpest Mid-Acts Bible Students this forum ever saw. I don't agree with her every point [as in the last sentence of the second to last paragraph of the following post of hers] but she was one sharp Mid-Actser!

The following post of her many, many posts shares with the subject of this thread, Everlearning, enjoy

http://www.christianforums.com/t3295623/

That was a good read Danoh, thanks.

 

[Danoh]

Two Peoples...

Two Plans...

Two separate kingdoms...

Are there Two plans of salvation?


If a descendant of Jacob dies today, does he go to heaven?

Please base your answer on scripture.

One "whole family IN heaven AND earth," Eph. 3:15.

One, two-fold purpose "IN earth as it is IN heaven," Mtt. 6:10, "in the dispensation of the fulness of times," Eph. 1:10.

Thus, one kingdom "For by him were all things created, that are IN heaven AND that are IN earth, visible [earth] and invisible" [heaven]. What "things, Paul? "Whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created FOR him and BY him: And [thus] he is before all things, and by him all things consist," Eph. 1:16, 17.

That aspect concerning the earth, concerning "the restitution of all THINGS...God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began," Acts 3:21, and revolves around that aspect of His two-fold purpose in which He "will send back Jesus, which before was preached unto" Israel, Acts 3:12, 20.

While that aspect of His two-fold purpose that concerns heaven, Paul's "knowledge in the mystery of Christ," Eph. 3:4, "from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God" - notice - "who created all THINGS by Jesus Christ:" v. 9.

Notice again - hid in God "To the intent that NOW unto PRINCIPALITIES and POWERS IN heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God - notice "according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our LORD:" v. 10, 11.

This next part you may have difficulty "buying."

After He temporarily set asside that aspect of His two-fold purpose in His Son concerning His restoring His dominion over the earth via Israel as His kingdom of priests, Ex. 19: 5, 6; 1 Peter 2; after He temporarily set that aside as planned, Romans 1-3; 9-11, and 15, Acts 13 and 15 in light of Romans and Ephesians, He nevertheless left the door open for a son of Jacob to get saved during this Mystery Age, in uncircumcision, per Romans and Galatians, for example.

This is Mid-Acts, though. It begins this Body midway thru Acts, with its first Body member, Paul, 1 Tim. 1., Romans 9's same "longsuffering."

Of course, this is just "a sound byte."

I don't expect you to agree, rather, that you be BABearen2 in your reaction to it.

No animosity towards you, just answering your question.

I realize this is an odd doctrine to most.

What I no longer find odd is automatic reaction against it for what to me is a poor choice - because it does not fit the standard way of looking at these things.

To Louis Pastuer for not having caved to the status quo of his day.

To true objectivity...

 

[dan p]

WHY didn't Peter and the rest of the 12 along with all those saved in Acts become part of the Body of Christ?

Hi , and one of the most interesting verses in the bible that controls a lot of theology , is Gal 3:28 .

There are 4 verb tenses in Gal 3:28 and this is hoiw verse 28 should read !

#1 , there are 4 verbs tenses ALL in the Present tense which means it is CONTINUOUS ACTION .

#2 , The first 3 verbs are alike , " ENI " which can be translated , " Neither , or Cannot be , and the fourth verse is " ARE/ESTE !

#3 , This is how Gal 3:28 should be understood , In this dispensation of Grace because of the Present Tense there CANNOT be Jew not Greek , there CANNOT BE sLAVE or Free , there CANNOT be Male and Female , for you ARE/ ESTI , all one " in Christ Jesus .

#3 , The Present says that once in the Body of Christ , ALL THAT ENTER al always in the Body of Christ .

#4 , All that enter the Body LOSE their Identity in the Body ..

#5 , This sloves whether the 12 are " IN or OUT " of the Body , they are OUT otherwise there will be no Jew in the Millennium .

#6 This all means that MARY is not in Heaven as there are no Females in heaven .

#7 , This also solves the problem in Rom 16 , where on was " in Christ " before Paul .

#8 , The other one " in Christ " was not in the dispensation of the Grace of God , like Paul was .

There are more , but my mind went blank .

#9 , Just remembered one more , " ARE /ESTI " in Christ means OSAS !

#10 , One more , and it is only Paul that uses the Phrase " in Christ " and all believers should know what it is !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

I understand you, Dan p, but boy did you open a can of worms with that #6 lol - trouble maker, you

Good post, though.

 

[Danoh]

Also, its interesting... I don't get into the Greek much. In fact; seldom.

Though I am not KJV only, years in it have caused me to repeatedly conclude that its translators were more than adequate to their task; all I need do is invest time studying HOW it uses words, WHERE it does.

You Greek em, I don't, and yet, we basically end up at the same Acts 9 Perspective.

And to think, I owe that to great childhood grammar school teachers

 

[dan p]

Also, its interesting... I don't get into the Greek much. In fact; seldom.

Though I am not KJV only, years in it have caused me to repeatedly conclude that its translators were more than adequate to their task; all I need do is invest time studying HOW it uses words, WHERE it does.

You Greek em, I don't, and yet, we basically end up at the same Acts 9 Perspective.

And to think, I owe that to great childhood grammar school teachers

Hi , and just common sense , Acts 9:6 and 1 Cor 12:3 , with it's 4 verb tenses in the Present Tense and one in the Aorist Tense or Past tense , is all the proof of Grace , begins at Acts 9:6 .

Many Jews called Jesus Lord , but this time it is different as 1 Cor 12:3 , no one can call Jesus Lord , EXCEPT by the Holy Spirit , which is in the CONTINUOUS Present Tense .

Most Acts 9:6 dispensationsalist do not know how SAUL/PAUL was saved and this is how tp prove it .

Most dispensationalist do not realize that OT Saints when to Abraham Bosom which is also called Paradise , like the Thief on the Cross .

We believers are going to be with the Lord , 2 Cor 5:6 .

Gal 3:28 is AWE SOME just by it self !

dan p

 

[Job8]

WHY didn't Peter and the rest of the 12 along with all those saved in Acts become part of the Body of Christ?

What makes you think that all the apostles were not aware of the Church (Jew and Gentile in one Body) after Peter was send to the household of Cornelius? In fact it was Peter who was the first apostle to bring Gentiles to Christ, although he had to give up his Jewish prejudices.

Did the Kingdom message continue to be preached (during Paul's lifetime) since there was a "change in program" at the same time the disciples were alive?

The "Kingdom message" was put on hold by Christ (Acts 1:6,7). Furthermore if you read the endings of all the Gospel, the apostles were sent forth to preach "The Gospel".

Why did the "believing remnant" of Jews have to say, take one fork in the road (waiting for fulfillment of the prophetic program to resume) while those following Paul took the other fork in the road (the Grace program, the Body of Christ).

Your understanding of converted Jews during the apostolic period is incorrect. The Jews were being integrated into the Church all along (not without conflict). By the same token, almost everywhere in the Roman Empire, the Jews generally rejected the Gospel. Thus they brought judgment upon themselves in 70 AD.

It seems like some aspects of Dispensationalism have caused more confusion than anything else. There is no "mid-Acts" change as some propose. I am a Dispensationalist, but only up to a point. I will not allow this "tool" of Bible study to distort the truth about Bible Christianty. If you read the Acts of the Apostles carefully you will find that there is only ONE GOSPEL, as confirmed in Galatians 2:4-10. Peter was sent specifically to the Jews, while Paul was sent specifically to the Gentiles, though he invariably went to the Jewish synagogues first, since the Gospel was to be preached "first" to the Jews, and then to the Gentiles. Paul traveled throughout the Roman Empire, while Peter remained in Judea.