A God like this.

[Stancet]

But Jesus preached "Love your enemies" now shouldn't that mean that the old testament God is unfit to fill that profile, that his character does not show "love your enemies"

I mean in totality.

Jesus is correct, we are supposed to love our enemies. That means pray for them and do everything you can to lead them to faith in Jesus. But that doesn't mean you should condone any of their evil acts, or invite them to parties where they might harm you.

Don't forget, we live in a fallen world where people are prey to Satan's temptation. And to God, sin is a problem that needs to be dealt with. The death penalty is a necessary consequence of man's sinful acts, but God has already done everything He could to forgive us our sins. If an individual fails to respond, it's their own fault that God must serve justice and punish them.

I don't mean that negative, in a fire-and-brimstone sense. Jesus died in order to forgive the sins of all our enemies, and Jesus commanded us to love them through our acts of charity, mercy and compassion so they might believe in God. We are not commanded to love by tolerating sin or neglecting to tell them of Jesus. Do everything you can to help your enemies see Jesus.

 

[primaryE]

Jesus is correct, we are supposed to love our enemies. That means pray for them and do everything you can to lead them to faith in Jesus. But that doesn't mean you should condone any of their evil acts, or invite them to parties where they might harm you.

Don't forget, we live in a fallen world where people are prey to Satan's temptation. And to God, sin is a problem that needs to be dealt with. The death penalty is a necessary consequence of man's sinful acts, but God has already done everything He could to forgive us our sins. If an individual fails to respond, it's their own fault that God must serve justice and punish them.

I don't mean that negative, in a fire-and-brimstone sense. Jesus died in order to forgive the sins of all our enemies, and Jesus commanded us to love them through our acts of charity, mercy and compassion so they might believe in God. We are not commanded to love by tolerating sin or neglecting to tell them of Jesus. Do everything you can to help your enemies see Jesus.

You sound like you are somewhat at the end of faith. But faith continues on and past death, I'm sure any real God would let me punch it and still save me.

 

[primaryE]

Jesus is correct, we are supposed to love our enemies. That means pray for them and do everything you can to lead them to faith in Jesus. But that doesn't mean you should condone any of their evil acts, or invite them to parties where they might harm you.

Don't forget, we live in a fallen world where people are prey to Satan's temptation. And to God, sin is a problem that needs to be dealt with. The death penalty is a necessary consequence of man's sinful acts, but God has already done everything He could to forgive us our sins. If an individual fails to respond, it's their own fault that God must serve justice and punish them.

I don't mean that negative, in a fire-and-brimstone sense. Jesus died in order to forgive the sins of all our enemies, and Jesus commanded us to love them through our acts of charity, mercy and compassion so they might believe in God. We are not commanded to love by tolerating sin or neglecting to tell them of Jesus. Do everything you can to help your enemies see Jesus.

I'm lost, where am I, memories of sour people are invading my mind. And my phone keyboard needs to be shot.

 

[Stancet]

You sound like you are somewhat at the end of faith. But faith continues on and past death, I'm sure any real God would let me punch it and still save me.

I appreciate the honesty of the questions you are asking in this forum thread. And I'm not criticizing your writing, but could you please reiterate what you were trying to write in this post. I'll try to answer it if I can.

 

[Adstar]

Kill me now!

Why come online asking questions and then when people respond, you decide to react with that type of attitude? Whats the point.. If you come onto a Christian forum you should expect Christians will give Christian type answers right...

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Help me understand how you don't understand.

If you actually read the bible, and studied it, you would not come to this conclusion, logically.

I've read it. Twice.
My opinion on the OT god, doesn't diverge much from the OP.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The answer to your dilemma is simple. In the ten commandments, it doesn't say "thou shalt not kill". It says "thou shalt not murder". Two completely different things. Murder is the act of killing somebody who is innocent, or who has not qualm with you.

You mean like... killing a baby or toddler? That would be murder then, right?

When God commanded Joshua to attack the Canaanite settlements of Jericho and other cities, historically we know these cultures were wicked and practiced child sacrifices. Could God have shown mercy? Yes He could, and He did show mercy to a few like Rahab the harlot who protected the spies of Israel. Otherwise, God was doing everything He could to protect humanity, even if He had to destroy people who were dangerous to themselves and others.

Yes. Those wicked babies and toddlers just had to die. Yep, there was no other option. Humanity would have been doomed if those babies and toddlers would have been allowed to live!

Those virgin girls though, they were allright enough to be kept as slave / war booty.

 

[Noxot]

But Jesus preached "Love your enemies" now shouldn't that mean that the old testament God is unfit to fill that profile, that his character does not show "love your enemies"

I mean in totality.

he did not say to "be friends with your enemies" and so I wonder what "love your enemies" means?

for context:

Matt 5:43-48 (YLT)
`Ye heard that it was said: Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and shalt hate thine enemy; but I--I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those cursing you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those accusing you falsely, and persecuting you, that ye may be sons of your Father in the heavens, because His sun He doth cause to rise on evil and good, and He doth send rain on righteous and unrighteous. `For, if ye may love those loving you, what reward have ye? do not also the tax-gatherers the same? and if ye may salute your brethren only, what do ye abundant? do not also the tax-gatherers so? ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who is in the heavens is perfect.

the thing about enemies is that they only seem to love their own ilk. this kind of love speaks of something that is better than mere animal reaction type love. the verses here have to do with living in the higher order of the spirit and not only in the flesh. need I remind you that there are various kinds of loves?

also, if you have a more sophisticated understanding of what "pray" means and you include all spirit-lead types of action as a kind of prayer then this is to say nothing more than to always be in the Spirit in all you do. so normative morality does not quite express action in the world because morality tends to consist of thou shalt not dos and don'ts which are abstractions made from acting in the world. they are either like that or they are biological systems that help the human body to survive in the world. in spirit we must transcend such things and order all we are together in the unity of the highest order.

so morality should not be mere words on paper and should look more like solid and living principles and ability to act dynamically in the world while not compromising your own spirit that if with God dwells in heaven.

You sound like you are somewhat at the end of faith. But faith continues on and past death, I'm sure any real God would let me punch it and still save me.

if you punched me we would not be friends because that is a sign of violence. only evil people punch someone that has done no wrong to them. if you stop punching me and repent then we can be friends. until then I can love you in any way that I can "love my enemies".

 

[Stancet]

You mean like... killing a baby or toddler? That would be murder then, right?



Yes. Those wicked babies and toddlers just had to die. Yep, there was no other option. Humanity would have been doomed if those babies and toddlers would have been allowed to live!

Those virgin girls though, they were allright enough to be kept as slave / war booty.

I know what you're saying, because I used to struggle with this myself. There are two crucial points to help you understand. 1) Those children and toddlers were doomed either way. They would either be offered as sacrifices in very brutal and painful ways, or survive to adulthood and practice the same thing as their parents did. 2) Little children go to heaven if they died too young to receive Jesus as savior. This is tricky, because scripture doesn't go into great detail, but we know it's true because King David said this about his illegitimate son who died in infancy, "But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back against? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." 2 Samuel 12:23

 

[Light of the East]

Did I answer this? I can't remember. Personally I'm not as blood thirsty and unrelenting as Bible God. So why don't you worship me instead of it.

I need the love more than it does, I can tell you that.

You didn't answer this rather long response of mine. And you seem to be hung up on the Jewish idea of being "blood-thirsty" for revenge on one's enemies. There is a distinctly uncomfortable Psalm in which David says "Blessed are they who dash their children against a wall" David is speaking of the Babylonians, who were the mortal enemies of the Israelites.

Now the thing you have to ask yourself is this: are you a Bible LITERALIST, that is, one who believes that every single word in the OT dropped out of God's mouth just exactly as He intended it? If so, then yes, God is say that it is good to bash little kids against a wall, which as you point out, is against the admonition to love one's enemies which Jesus stated.

OR~~~~!!!

(And this is what I believe)

The Bible is a compilation of writings from men in which there is divine truth, that is, there are parts in which the author says "Thus saith the Lord..." and we can know that the statement being made is from God. But there are also personal feelings from God, historical events, and many other things that are being recorded that are not directly from God. You have to see that the men who wrote the Bible often put in their own personal feelings and experiences as well as the first hand, direct communication from God. When David praises those who bash the heads of Babylonian children against a wall, he is speaking of himself. I nowhere see in that Psalm "Thus saith the Lord...."

David is a warrior and as such, has developed a considerable hatred for the Babylonians, and it comes out in this Psalm.

And this same principle applies to other parts of the Bible as well.

 

[Light of the East]

You sound like you are somewhat at the end of faith. But faith continues on and past death, I'm sure any real God would let me punch it and still save me.

He did.

On the Cross.

 

[Noxot]

this is symbolic of a spiritual process of growth and repentance. the sucklings here are the works and thoughts of the spirit of babylon that must be destroyed from us that we be pure spiritual virgins for God.

Ps 137:8-9 (YLT)
O daughter of Babylon, O destroyed one, O the happiness of him who repayeth to thee thy deed, That thou hast done to us. O the happiness of him who doth seize, And hath dashed thy sucklings on the rock!


babylon is a symbol of falling away from God and when you die to goodness then you are evil. babylon means spiritual confusion or confusion of the soul.

Rev 18:2 (YLT)
and he did cry in might--a great voice, saying, `Fall, fall did Babylon the great, and she became a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird,

babylon is the new jerusalem but this is before the complete process of spiritual sanctification. this is why she is said to be chosen.

1Pet 5:13 (ESV2011)
She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings, and so does Mark, my son.

here are a few other examples of the spiritual process.

Mic 4:10 (YLT)
Be pained, and bring forth, O daughter of Zion, As a travailing woman, For now, thou goest forth from the city, And thou hast dwelt in the field, And thou hast gone unto Babylon, There thou art delivered, There redeem thee doth Jehovah from the hand of thine enemies.

Jer 51:34-37 (YLT)
Devoured us, crushed us, hath Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, He hath set us as an empty vessel, He hath swallowed us as a dragon, He hath filled his belly with my dainties, He hath driven us away. My wrong, and that of my flesh is on Babylon, Say doth the inhabitant of Zion, And my blood is on the inhabitants of Chaldea, Say doth Jerusalem. Therefore, thus said Jehovah: Lo, I am pleading thy cause, And I have avenged thy vengeance, And dried up its sea, and made its fountains dry. And Babylon hath been for heaps, A habitation of dragons, An astonishment, and a hissing, without inhabitant.

Rev 21:1-4 (YLT)
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not any more; and I, John, saw the holy city--new Jerusalem--coming down from God out of the heaven, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband; and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, `Lo, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them--their God, and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and the death shall not be any more, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, because the first things did go away.'

ectectect

 

[Strathos]

You need to understand that the Old Testament was written through the lens of the people who lived back then, who had a very different way of life than we do today.

 

[faroukfarouk]

this is symbolic of a spiritual process of growth and repentance. the sucklings here are the works and thoughts of the spirit of babylon that must be destroyed from us that we be pure spiritual virgins for God.

Ps 137:8-9 (YLT)
O daughter of Babylon, O destroyed one, O the happiness of him who repayeth to thee thy deed, That thou hast done to us. O the happiness of him who doth seize, And hath dashed thy sucklings on the rock!


babylon is a symbol of falling away from God and when you die to goodness then you are evil. babylon means spiritual confusion or confusion of the soul.

Rev 18:2 (YLT)
and he did cry in might--a great voice, saying, `Fall, fall did Babylon the great, and she became a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird,

babylon is the new jerusalem but this is before the complete process of spiritual sanctification. this is why she is said to be chosen.

1Pet 5:13 (ESV2011)
She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings, and so does Mark, my son.

here are a few other examples of the spiritual process.

Mic 4:10 (YLT)
Be pained, and bring forth, O daughter of Zion, As a travailing woman, For now, thou goest forth from the city, And thou hast dwelt in the field, And thou hast gone unto Babylon, There thou art delivered, There redeem thee doth Jehovah from the hand of thine enemies.

Jer 51:34-37 (YLT)
Devoured us, crushed us, hath Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, He hath set us as an empty vessel, He hath swallowed us as a dragon, He hath filled his belly with my dainties, He hath driven us away. My wrong, and that of my flesh is on Babylon, Say doth the inhabitant of Zion, And my blood is on the inhabitants of Chaldea, Say doth Jerusalem. Therefore, thus said Jehovah: Lo, I am pleading thy cause, And I have avenged thy vengeance, And dried up its sea, and made its fountains dry. And Babylon hath been for heaps, A habitation of dragons, An astonishment, and a hissing, without inhabitant.

Rev 21:1-4 (YLT)
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not any more; and I, John, saw the holy city--new Jerusalem--coming down from God out of the heaven, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband; and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, `Lo, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them--their God, and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and the death shall not be any more, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, because the first things did go away.'

ectectect

Romans 2 is Paul's great treatise on repentance.

 

[ananda]

Is the old testament God moral? This God has no problem with ordering people to kill for him, much like radical Muslims today. But we wouldn't say those actions are moral. Not only does the old testament God kill, he sends afflictions on those he does not like, and gets drunk on the blood of his enemies.

Now don't just shrug this off like many apologists do today, help me understand why I would ever respect and love a God like this.

Is this not also the behavior of Jesus in the NT? Luke 19:27: "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Well how much or how little do I have to read the Bible, before I get it. What would I be getting exactly? Which point of view is acceptable, yours, a pastor's, mine, someone else's. (Gods?) Well that's just my point of view again.

I can't see how someone can't arrive at a detrimental view when reading the old testament, and possibly acting out what they believe is in Gods character.

God is like Bill Cosby's character to his misbehaving kids,

"I brought you into this world......and I can take you out."

 

[AfterThought]

Is the old testament God moral? This God has no problem with ordering people to kill for him, much like radical Muslims today. But we wouldn't say those actions are moral. Not only does the old testament God kill, he sends afflictions on those he does not like, and gets drunk on the blood of his enemies.

Now don't just shrug this off like many apologists do today, help me understand why I would ever respect and love a God like this.

I think it was because it was a barbaric time in our history that is why the Jesus message was so important love your enemies in my opinion was very controversial at the time because the Old Testament offering was seen in a fashion that showed killing as a way of punishment

 

[Dave-W]

"I brought you into this world......and I can take you out."

"And make another that looks just like you; and no one will know the difference."