A God like this.

[primaryE]

Is the old testament God moral? This God has no problem with ordering people to kill for him, much like radical Muslims today. But we wouldn't say those actions are moral. Not only does the old testament God kill, he sends afflictions on those he does not like, and gets drunk on the blood of his enemies.

Now don't just shrug this off like many apologists do today, help me understand why I would ever respect and love a God like this.

 

[Wolfe]

Help me understand how you don't understand.

If you actually read the bible, and studied it, you would not come to this conclusion, logically.

 

[primaryE]

Help me understand how you don't understand.

If you actually read the bible, and studied it, you would not come to this conclusion, logically.

I have read it, every word. And the God of the old testament can be vicious.

 

[Wolfe]

I have read it, every word. And the God of the old testament can be vicious.

You can watch a show, and take it at face value, or you can immerse yourself into the world and understand it properly.

You have not done the latter, if you've still come to the conclusion that God is malicious.
I can't help you to understand how you're wrong, chances are you're not willing. Few are.

What I can suggest, is instead researching it yourself, instead of asking someone personally.
it's normally how I come to conclusions.

 

[Stancet]

Is the old testament God moral? This God has no problem with ordering people to kill for him, much like radical Muslims today. But we wouldn't say those actions are moral. Not only does the old testament God kill, he sends afflictions on those he does not like, and gets drunk on the blood of his enemies.

Now don't just shrug this off like many apologists do today, help me understand why I would ever respect and love a God like this.

The answer to your dilemma is simple. In the ten commandments, it doesn't say "thou shalt not kill". It says "thou shalt not murder". Two completely different things. Murder is the act of killing somebody who is innocent, or who has not qualm with you.

When God commanded Joshua to attack the Canaanite settlements of Jericho and other cities, historically we know these cultures were wicked and practiced child sacrifices. Could God have shown mercy? Yes He could, and He did show mercy to a few like Rahab the harlot who protected the spies of Israel. Otherwise, God was doing everything He could to protect humanity, even if He had to destroy people who were dangerous to themselves and others.

You can watch a show, and take it at face value, or you can immerse yourself into the world and understand it properly.

You have not done the latter, if you've still come to the conclusion that God is malicious.
I can't help you to understand how you're wrong, chances are you're not willing. Few are.

What I can suggest, is instead researching it yourself, instead of asking someone personally.
it's normally how I come to conclusions.

Wolfe, I hope you won't take this the wrong way but this person was asking an honest question and we should honor him with an honest reply. Not being critical but supportive.

 

[Wolfe]

The answer to your dilemma is simple. In the ten commandments, it doesn't say "thou shalt not kill". It says "thou shalt not murder". Two completely different things. Murder is the act of killing somebody who is innocent, or who has not qualm with you.

When God commanded Joshua to attack the Canaanite settlements of Jericho and other cities, historically we know these cultures were wicked and practiced child sacrifices. Could God have shown mercy? Yes He could, and He did show mercy to a few like Rahab the harlot who protected the spies of Israel.



Wolfe, I hope you won't take this the wrong way but this person was asking an honest question and we should honor him with an honest reply. Not being critical but supportive.

This was my honest reply, I can't help someone realize something.
I find it to be common sense, and it's just not something I really cared about to study, so I have no real philosophical points to give.
However, my advice still stands. Self research is extremely beneficial, and I find exclusively self research is far more satisfying.

 

[Symph]

I used to think sort of like this. But I feel dumb for it now. How in the world could I expect to understand the complexities of situations in the ancient world that happened thousands of years before me. It was a time of witchcraft, demon worship, child sacrifice, nephilim, angels coming to the earth and decieving mankind, and Israel was just about the most hated nation. God protects his people, and God protects his earth, he commands us not to kill because we are not perfect judges, we do not see all, and we do not know what is or isn't a lost cause. But as the creator being who DOES know these things, why WOULDN'T he be able to choose who he allows to continue breathing his air and who he doesn't? And was there EVER a time he wiped anyone out without sufficient warning? No that's what the prophets were! He had them coming to these nations performing outrageous displays of sincerity like tying themselves up and lying on the street for a year etc, sometimes he'd perform signs and wonders to PROVE the prophet was telling the truth, these are nations hell bent on destruction and God sends them warning after warning "I WILL DESTROY YOU IF YOU KEEP ON THIS WAY".

With the flood, you really should do some extracurricular digging to wrap your head around that one, it sounds like the genetic code had been manipulated beyond repair and an evil was being born on this earth that would have destroyed everyone so God preserved the one last good family left. It's like God keeps seeing what man does with differen levels of freedom, and before the flood was just "what does man do when left to himself" well he destroys the whole earth and everything in it so God starts over "What does man do with a written moral code telling him how not to destroy the earth but make it a paradise" He uses it as a means to control others.... fantastic. What does man do when I come down and SHOW him how to live and then die to free him from the law so he can enter into relationship with me? Well that one worked perfectly before the devil got clever.

And I ask you, would you worship a God who didn't deliver justice? Why do you assume the people God chooses to kill were not worthy of death? In war generals make decisions that cause innocent people to die and they have to make them because the outcome will be so much worse if they don't, and they make mistakes, and we give them medals of honor. God is a constant general, protecting his children and his world, and yes, when something threatens his children or his world he gets VICIOUS. And if that makes you uncomfortable I'm sorry but it makes me EXCITED.

Cause that lets me know my God will battle the evil for me, and he won't let them get off without paying for what they've done. His judgements will not over punish innocent people, heck, he's given anyone who loves his son a get out of jail free card! But some people are trying to enslave everyone, and their crimes are too great, and I wouldn't be too happy if I thought God was just gonna let bygones be bygones and bring them into heaven with all that blood on their hands and no retribution paid. I'm a lot more cool with the real God, it's like your dad is the Godfather, and he's the nicest dad in the world to all his many children, but when someone threatens his child or his home? They're sleeping with the fishes.....

 

[Stancet]

This was my honest reply, I can't help someone realize something.
I find it to be common sense, and it's just not something I really cared about to study, so I have no real philosophical points to give.
However, my advice still stands. Self research is extremely beneficial, and I find exclusively self research is far more satisfying.

I understand.

 

[paul1149]

This God has no problem with ordering people to kill for him, much like radical Muslims today.

The God of the OT is always about establishing moral order. The methodology does indeed get rough, but generally was much better than SOP for the nations of that time. And nowhere does He give the injunction to conquer the world with violence. The Israelites were apportioned a specific piece of ground, and that was it. And they waited in progressively onerous slavery in Egypt until the "error of the Amorites is fulfilled" before they were finally commissioned to go in with swords. Even at its very worst, the OT narrative doesn't come remotely close to the god of the koran in condoning wanton vicious tribal behavior.

 

[RGW00]

Is the old testament God moral? This God has no problem with ordering people to kill for him, much like radical Muslims today. But we wouldn't say those actions are moral. Not only does the old testament God kill, he sends afflictions on those he does not like, and gets drunk on the blood of his enemies.

Now don't just shrug this off like many apologists do today, help me understand why I would ever respect and love a God like this.

I know this is a long post, but please take the time to read this when you actually find the time.

I understand this conclusion you have come to. One thing that you are missing, however, is all the good He does. If you notice, those things that seem bad are because mainly the people are bad.

If you think about the world we live in today, hardly anyone follows God. God was very strict on the people back then and He still does punish us, just not in the same way. For example, without getting too political, He has punished us by letting us have what we want.

This may be a really odd quote to use for this, considering this TV show is very inappropriate, but in House of Cards, the main character in the show, Frank Underwood seeks power. He uses people and deceives them into rising to the top in politics, AKA President. But the quote is the following: You made this bed, America. And there you are, slack-jawed and bewildered, wondering if this is what you actually asked for.

God punishes us in this way. He punishes the masses that don't follow Him because he lets us do what we want on our own and then we realize this isn't what we wanted and new problems begin to arise.

The reason that it seems God was more direct, (for example, He destroyed a whole world with a flood, and in Sodom and Gomorrah, where He burned the place to the ground, and in Egypt, where He plagued the people until Pharaoh let His people go, etc.) is because He was strict on the laws He made them follow.

God was more direct in positive and negative ways, He spoke to people directly in order for them to hear His voice to carry out his deeds, and He also directly punished people that didn't follow Him. All of this was the lead up to something incredible: Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ had to be paved the way in order to carry out what God truly wanted. If you noticed, He then let the people decide what they really wanted by letting Jesus die for our sins. After this, all of those strict laws He practically made us follow were gone, we could live anyway we wanted. But with this comes a price: having the freedom can make us grow farther away from Him.

If you look at the people who wandered in the Promised Land for practically generations, they all wanted to reach it but they seemed to not want all the stuff that came with it. That's like a lot of Christians today, they want to go to Heaven but yet they don't want to have to follow God all of their lives. But eventually the ones who actually remained and followed God got there, including Joshua, who really followed God all the way through. He was like the Noah of his time, and so was Moses. Yet Moses committed a sin that caused him to not enter the Promised Land

Basically what this all bulls down to is this: God is very strict and jealous when He has to be, to carry out His plan, this is His world after all. But ultimately, He lets us choose our path and He gives us opportunities to rise above the things that bother us most. If we take them, we endure Him and receive His blessings on Earth and in Heaven. If we don't, then we will struggle throughout our lives and we will not receive rewards in Heaven.

Hope this helps.

 

[Thursday]

I have read it, every word. And the God of the old testament can be vicious.

You are not reading scripture correctly. It was written by men with a very different moral compass than we have today.

God was moving us toward a more humane society throughout the Old Testament and fully revealed his message through Christ.

For example, the story where God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son was a way to let us know that this practice is not necessary. The pagan kingdoms at the time practiced child sacrifice routinely long after the Jews rejected this practice.

 

[Light of the East]

Is the old testament God moral? This God has no problem with ordering people to kill for him, much like radical Muslims today. But we wouldn't say those actions are moral. Not only does the old testament God kill, he sends afflictions on those he does not like, and gets drunk on the blood of his enemies.

Now don't just shrug this off like many apologists do today, help me understand why I would ever respect and love a God like this.

I'm not sure if I have an exact answer for you, or one that will even suffice for your concern, but I have had the same thoughts myself and have come up with something that may help you.

In the Old Covenant (testament) there was a war declared. Mankind had been subverted by the Fall, and God had promised to send a Savior so that the world, the cosmos, and mankind - all of Creation - could be restored and the damage from the Fall be reversed.

It is my opinion that Satan, the evil one, upon hearing this promise of a coming Redeemer and the restoration of Creation, said "Oh yeah??? Well, we will see about that!!!" And the war was on.

The promise of a Redeemer was made through the covenant promises of Abraham. If you trace his lineage through the Old Covenant, you will find that at one time, all but one of the seed of Abraham were killed off. The wicked one tried everything that he could to stop this redemption from taking place. We even see this warfare on the Mount of Temptation where Christ is tempted three times. If He had given in to even one of them, the redemption program would have crashed to the ground.

Therefore, what you see in the Old Testament is not an angry and vengeful God who just delights in whuppin' up on people, but rather a God who is at war with the evil one on our behalf to redeem us. Whenever you see someone being afflicted or killed in the OT, it is because they have sided with the enemy of our souls to try to aid in the derailing of the redemption program.

Also, I'm not so sure that God delights in "getting drunk on the blood of His enemies." Remember that the Bible is written by men, and within those writings are the truth of God. Perhaps that verse which says that God delights in getting drunk on the blood of His enemies is more of Jewish rejoicing over the victory of those who would have defeated and killed them than it is a real expression of God's feelings. After all, in the New Covenant, Paul stated that it is the will of God that ALL be saved.

And this is, in my opinion, why we see the paradigm shift between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. In the OT, God is at war with an evil one who wishes our destruction. God wars against both the evil one, and those who give themselves to serve him. But after the Resurrection, the war is over. It's won. Christ takes back all that Satan had stolen. The wicked one is no longer the "Prince of the Power of the Air." He no longer rules over nor owns the kingdoms of the world. All this belongs to Christ our God now, which is why we are ordered to love our enemies. No matter what they do in obeying their father the devil and serving him, they cannot undo the Resurrection. The war is over, Christ is victorious, and we share in that victory with Him. God has put up the the weapons of war and now it is only a matter of time until the end of the ages and the final victory.

That is just my opinion. Take it for what it is worth and I hope it might give you another way of looking at this issue.

 

[primaryE]

You can watch a show, and take it at face value, or you can immerse yourself into the world and understand it properly.

You have not done the latter, if you've still come to the conclusion that God is malicious.
I can't help you to understand how you're wrong, chances are you're not willing. Few are.

What I can suggest, is instead researching it yourself, instead of asking someone personally.
it's normally how I come to conclusions.

Well how much or how little do I have to read the Bible, before I get it. What would I be getting exactly? Which point of view is acceptable, yours, a pastor's, mine, someone else's. (Gods?) Well that's just my point of view again.

I can't see how someone can't arrive at a detrimental view when reading the old testament, and possibly acting out what they believe is in Gods character.

 

[Wolfe]

(Gods?) Well that's just my point of view again.

Well that tells me right there that you're unwilling, and unable to find an answer to your question.
You're not intellectually stimulated by this for the sake of seeking truth, you just think you're right and wanna debate pointlessly about a subject you don't even care about.

 

[primaryE]

The answer to your dilemma is simple. In the ten commandments, it doesn't say "thou shalt not kill". It says "thou shalt not murder". Two completely different things. Murder is the act of killing somebody who is innocent, or who has not qualm with you.

When God commanded Joshua to attack the Canaanite settlements of Jericho and other cities, historically we know these cultures were wicked and practiced child sacrifices. Could God have shown mercy? Yes He could, and He did show mercy to a few like Rahab the harlot who protected the spies of Israel. Otherwise, God was doing everything He could to protect humanity, even if He had to destroy people who were dangerous to themselves and others.



Wolfe, I hope you won't take this the wrong way but this person was asking an honest question and we should honor him with an honest reply. Not being critical but supportive.

But Jesus preached "Love your enemies" now shouldn't that mean that the old testament God is unfit to fill that profile, that his character does not show "love your enemies"

I mean in totality.

 

[primaryE]

I used to think sort of like this. But I feel dumb for it now. How in the world could I expect to understand the complexities of situations in the ancient world that happened thousands of years before me. It was a time of witchcraft, demon worship, child sacrifice, nephilim, angels coming to the earth and decieving mankind, and Israel was just about the most hated nation. God protects his people, and God protects his earth, he commands us not to kill because we are not perfect judges, we do not see all, and we do not know what is or isn't a lost cause. But as the creator being who DOES know these things, why WOULDN'T he be able to choose who he allows to continue breathing his air and who he doesn't? And was there EVER a time he wiped anyone out without sufficient warning? No that's what the prophets were! He had them coming to these nations performing outrageous displays of sincerity like tying themselves up and lying on the street for a year etc, sometimes he'd perform signs and wonders to PROVE the prophet was telling the truth, these are nations hell bent on destruction and God sends them warning after warning "I WILL DESTROY YOU IF YOU KEEP ON THIS WAY".

With the flood, you really should do some extracurricular digging to wrap your head around that one, it sounds like the genetic code had been manipulated beyond repair and an evil was being born on this earth that would have destroyed everyone so God preserved the one last good family left. It's like God keeps seeing what man does with differen levels of freedom, and before the flood was just "what does man do when left to himself" well he destroys the whole earth and everything in it so God starts over "What does man do with a written moral code telling him how not to destroy the earth but make it a paradise" He uses it as a means to control others.... fantastic. What does man do when I come down and SHOW him how to live and then die to free him from the law so he can enter into relationship with me? Well that one worked perfectly before the devil got clever.

And I ask you, would you worship a God who didn't deliver justice? Why do you assume the people God chooses to kill were not worthy of death? In war generals make decisions that cause innocent people to die and they have to make them because the outcome will be so much worse if they don't, and they make mistakes, and we give them medals of honor. God is a constant general, protecting his children and his world, and yes, when something threatens his children or his world he gets VICIOUS. And if that makes you uncomfortable I'm sorry but it makes me EXCITED.

Cause that lets me know my God will battle the evil for me, and he won't let them get off without paying for what they've done. His judgements will not over punish innocent people, heck, he's given anyone who loves his son a get out of jail free card! But some people are trying to enslave everyone, and their crimes are too great, and I wouldn't be too happy if I thought God was just gonna let bygones be bygones and bring them into heaven with all that blood on their hands and no retribution paid. I'm a lot more cool with the real God, it's like your dad is the Godfather, and he's the nicest dad in the world to all his many children, but when someone threatens his child or his home? They're sleeping with the fishes.....

Submission, that's your answer.

I would say you feel dumb, as every victim feels dumb after the beating has subsided.

 

[primaryE]

Well that tells me right there that you're unwilling, and unable to find an answer to your question.
You're not intellectually stimulated by this for the sake of seeking truth, you just think you're right and wanna debate pointlessly about a subject you don't even care about.

Don't be so negative Wolfe.

 

[primaryE]

I'm not sure if I have an exact answer for you, or one that will even suffice for your concern, but I have had the same thoughts myself and have come up with something that may help you.

In the Old Covenant (testament) there was a war declared. Mankind had been subverted by the Fall, and God had promised to send a Savior so that the world, the cosmos, and mankind - all of Creation - could be restored and the damage from the Fall be reversed.

It is my opinion that Satan, the evil one, upon hearing this promise of a coming Redeemer and the restoration of Creation, said "Oh yeah??? Well, we will see about that!!!" And the war was on.

The promise of a Redeemer was made through the covenant promises of Abraham. If you trace his lineage through the Old Covenant, you will find that at one time, all but one of the seed of Abraham were killed off. The wicked one tried everything that he could to stop this redemption from taking place. We even see this warfare on the Mount of Temptation where Christ is tempted three times. If He had given in to even one of them, the redemption program would have crashed to the ground.

Therefore, what you see in the Old Testament is not an angry and vengeful God who just delights in whuppin' up on people, but rather a God who is at war with the evil one on our behalf to redeem us. Whenever you see someone being afflicted or killed in the OT, it is because they have sided with the enemy of our souls to try to aid in the derailing of the redemption program.

Also, I'm not so sure that God delights in "getting drunk on the blood of His enemies." Remember that the Bible is written by men, and within those writings are the truth of God. Perhaps that verse which says that God delights in getting drunk on the blood of His enemies is more of Jewish rejoicing over the victory of those who would have defeated and killed them than it is a real expression of God's feelings. After all, in the New Covenant, Paul stated that it is the will of God that ALL be saved.

And this is, in my opinion, why we see the paradigm shift between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. In the OT, God is at war with an evil one who wishes our destruction. God wars against both the evil one, and those who give themselves to serve him. But after the Resurrection, the war is over. It's won. Christ takes back all that Satan had stolen. The wicked one is no longer the "Prince of the Power of the Air." He no longer rules over nor owns the kingdoms of the world. All this belongs to Christ our God now, which is why we are ordered to love our enemies. No matter what they do in obeying their father the devil and serving him, they cannot undo the Resurrection. The war is over, Christ is victorious, and we share in that victory with Him. God has put up the the weapons of war and now it is only a matter of time until the end of the ages and the final victory.

That is just my opinion. Take it for what it is worth and I hope it might give you another way of looking at this issue.

Did I answer this? I can't remember. Personally I'm not as blood thirsty and unrelenting as Bible God. So why don't you worship me instead of it.

I need the love more than it does, I can tell you that.

 

[Adstar]

Is the old testament God moral? This God has no problem with ordering people to kill for him, much like radical Muslims today. But we wouldn't say those actions are moral. Not only does the old testament God kill, he sends afflictions on those he does not like, and gets drunk on the blood of his enemies.

Now don't just shrug this off like many apologists do today, help me understand why I would ever respect and love a God like this.

If you read the Bible then you probably would understand that God never executed people without a cause.. God is Just and He is perfect and therefore He is justified in ordering the execution of anyone whom He orders the execution of... God is perfect in all sphears .. Love.. Justice.. Might.. Mercy too...

 

[primaryE]

If you read the Bible then you probably would understand that God never executed people without a cause.. God is Just and He is perfect and therefore He is justified in ordering the execution of anyone whom He orders the execution of... God is perfect in all sphears .. Love.. Justice.. Might.. Mercy too...

Kill me now!