A global flood is simply untenable

[Job 33:6]

How Firm is the “Firmament”? Part 2 (of 2)

Part one of this series suggested that – based on analysis of the Hebrew word rāqîa‘—an important part of Albert Einstein’s theory of general relativity was already described by Genesis 1 by many centuries before.

reasons.org

The writer of this article makes the same mistakes as the last, similar to Vern Poythress, they're trying to call the waters above and below vapor, rather than just acknowledging that the waters above and below are water. The article discussed space time fabric as being the expanse, but then somehow suggests that clouds are the waters above the expanse, as if clouds are at the edge of the universe.

It doesn't make sense unless people just start interpreting much of Genesis metaphorically.

The article then doesn't say anything about the ancient near east. Probably because the author is a physicist and not an old testament scholar.

 

[BPPLEE]

Hugh Henry has no education on the old testament. He's a physicist. I'm sure he's a nice guy, but he hasn't studied the Bible and doesn't have expertise in it. If this were a subject about physics, he would be more of a reasonable resource. I'll respond anyway. But just pointing this out.

Hugh Ross

 

[Job 33:6]

Hugh Ross

Sure. And Don't get me wrong, I much more prefer to read OEC content over YEC. But they still suffer from some of the same issues of trying to make the Bible into something akin to modern science.

The Bible was written by inspired authors, but there's no indication that God revealed concepts of modern science to them in that revelation.

Concepts of space time expanse and the big bang and all that other stuff the author mentions, those are modern discoveries. Since the 1800s.

The Biblical authors, though inspired, they didn't even have telescopes yet. It would be another 1000 years later, before any evidence of the discovery that earth was a sphere.

So, approaching the Bible from our 21st century perspective, cannot supercede the perspective of the original authors and audience.

Because when we assume that the Bible is talking about our modern science, what were doing is,.were letting our modern science determine meaning of scripture. Rather than letting the ancient author define the meaning of scripture.

 

[Job 33:6]

Hugh Ross

And I hear this all the time when YECs criticise people like Hugh Ross. They'll say things like, "prior to the 1800s that wasn't a view that anyone held".

And it's like, well yes and no. It's correct that belief in an old earth or belief in evolution or the big bang were not common in the church prior to the 1750s or so. But the obvious reason for this is that such things hadn't been yet discovered. It's the same reason that people in the early church doubted heliocentrism and or a spherical earth. We can't expect people to know things prior to their discovery.

But, what is necessary, is to take this a step further and to point out that the same thing applies to the Biblical authors. They didn't know things that hadn't yet been discovered scientifically.

And the Bible affirms this. Job 38:17, He spreads out the sky hard as cast bronze metal.

There was a commonly held view in the time of the ancient isrealites, that the sky was solid. And when we read the Bible, it's plainly evident.

And above the solid sky, was an ocean. It was an ancient explanation for why the sky was blue.

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10
God walks up on the vault of heaven

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3 (God's heavenly chambers sit above the waters)

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

And that's what these verses, among many others, are describing. A historical cosmology. And it's not perfect. It's generally phenomenological.

But it doesn't have anything to do with the expanse of the universe. Not that Moses and others would or could look up and see the expanse under God's feet if it were billions of light years at the edge of the universe anyway.


The dome was maybe a few miles higher than the tallest mountain. Stars were inside the dome, stuck in it so that they would not fall.

 

[BPPLEE]

And I hear this all the time when YECs criticise people like Hugh Ross. They'll say things like, "prior to the 1800s that wasn't a view that anyone held".

And it's like, well yes and no. It's correct that belief in an old earth or belief in evolution or the big bang were not common in the church prior to the 1750s or so. But the obvious reason for this is that such things hadn't been yet discovered. It's the same reason that people in the early church doubted heliocentrism and or a spherical earth. We can't expect people to know things prior to their discovery.

But, what is necessary, is to take this a step further and to point out that the same thing applies to the Biblical authors. They didn't know things that hadn't yet been discovered scientifically.

And the Bible affirms this. Job 38:17, He spreads out the sky hard as cast bronze metal.

There was a commonly held view in the time of the ancient isrealites, that the sky was solid. And when we read the Bible, it's plainly evident.

And above the solid sky, was an ocean. It was an ancient explanation for why the sky was blue.

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10
God walks up on the vault of heaven

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3 (God's heavenly chambers sit above the waters)

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

And that's what these verses, among many others, are describing. A historical cosmology. And it's not perfect. It's generally phenomenological.

But it doesn't have anything to do with the expanse of the universe. Not that Moses and others would or could look up and see the expanse under God's feet if it were billions of light years at the edge of the universe anyway.


The dome was maybe a few miles higher than the tallest mountain. Stars were inside the dome, stuck in it so that they would not fall.

I like how you address posts with your views and without sarcasm, ridicule and arrogance.

 

[Job 33:6]

I like how you address posts with your views and without sarcasm, ridicule and arrogance.

Thanks.

And, the common Christian response I'll hear is, just like with other things in the Bible, God meets people where they're at. God didn't wait for people to abolish slavery before coming down to king Solomon, who had tens of thousands of slaves according to the Bible. God met Solomon where he was at in his point in history. And same with science. God didn't say, hey you all need to straighten out this science topic before you can know me. God met people where they were at in their stage of history.

Sorry, you all think that the sun orbits the earth, therefore you're not ready for a relationship with me. - things God never said.

That's how I've heard most Biblical scholarship address the topic, and I think it makes sense. And it provides a neat and clean explanation for Genesis. And it provides a neat and clean explanation for why scientists are saying that earth is old and things like that.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

The book of Genesis as described by John Walton:

 

[BPPLEE]

And I hear this all the time when YECs criticise people like Hugh Ross. They'll say things like, "prior to the 1800s that wasn't a view that anyone held".

And it's like, well yes and no. It's correct that belief in an old earth or belief in evolution or the big bang were not common in the church prior to the 1750s or so. But the obvious reason for this is that such things hadn't been yet discovered. It's the same reason that people in the early church doubted heliocentrism and or a spherical earth. We can't expect people to know things prior to their discovery.

But, what is necessary, is to take this a step further and to point out that the same thing applies to the Biblical authors. They didn't know things that hadn't yet been discovered scientifically.

And the Bible affirms this. Job 38:17, He spreads out the sky hard as cast bronze metal.

There was a commonly held view in the time of the ancient isrealites, that the sky was solid. And when we read the Bible, it's plainly evident.

And above the solid sky, was an ocean. It was an ancient explanation for why the sky was blue.

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10
God walks up on the vault of heaven

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3 (God's heavenly chambers sit above the waters)

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

And that's what these verses, among many others, are describing. A historical cosmology. And it's not perfect. It's generally phenomenological.

But it doesn't have anything to do with the expanse of the universe. Not that Moses and others would or could look up and see the expanse under God's feet if it were billions of light years at the edge of the universe anyway.


The dome was maybe a few miles higher than the tallest mountain. Stars were inside the dome, stuck in it so that they would not fall.

Hugh Ross is knowledgeable in science and he believes the Bible is inerrant. He tries to make the Bible and science line up and has some interesting ideas but often comes out with views that don’t please either side.

 

[loveofourlord]

Why 1?

Why do you think this is impossible, at least to a degree? And how do you know wooly mammoths and african elephants aren't of the same species, like Clydesdales and Shetlands, or Pygmies and Dinkas?

I would say 1 because we have artifacts shortly after the flood would have happened showing lions tigers and such already there. If we took 4000ish years to get here maybe it might work, but how do you get tigers in India, lions in africa, leopards in egypt and such with no signs of breakage. Same with civilizations, funny that while many civilizations mention floods, you have places like China that are meticulous about record keeping showing no signs of suddenly being wiped out and then having to be restarted a few years or so later.

 

[Derf]

I would say 1 because we have artifacts shortly after the flood would have happened showing lions tigers and such already there. If we took 4000ish years to get here maybe it might work, but how do you get tigers in India, lions in africa, leopards in egypt and such with no signs of breakage.

If we global flood proponents, as well as pretty much everybody else, are correct that fossilization is a rare event requiring special circumstances, and God had promised never to flood the whole earth ever again, why would you expect to find those evidences? And, can you assure me that you can tell the difference between the ancestor of a lion vs the ancestor of a tiger vs the ancestor of a leopard when looking at fossils?

Same with civilizations, funny that while many civilizations mention floods, you have places like China that are meticulous about record keeping showing no signs of suddenly being wiped out and then having to be restarted a few years or so later.

Um, we do have flood records but not as events within the culture, since there was no Chinese culture prior to the flood. China is a post-flood, and a post-Babel (I assume you understand what I mean by that, but if you don't, let me know)
civilization, so any "records" it has of events after they were established there, would, by definition, not include anything that happened prior.

But, Chinese writing DOES include evidence of the flood, as well as other things pre-flood. It's in their alphabet.
------------
For example, note the Chinese word for ship, or large boat. This word is made up of three parts:



Eight-person boat
---------------
(From Finding Evidence of Noah’s Ark—In a Single Chinese Word)

There were eight persons on the ark. There are other examples that speak of the events in Eden.

 

[loveofourlord]

If we global flood proponents, as well as pretty much everybody else, are correct that fossilization is a rare event requiring special circumstances, and God had promised never to flood the whole earth ever again, why would you expect to find those evidences? And, can you assure me that you can tell the difference between the ancestor of a lion vs the ancestor of a tiger vs the ancestor of a leopard when looking at fossils?


Um, we do have flood records but not as events within the culture, since there was no Chinese culture prior to the flood. China is a post-flood, and a post-Babel (I assume you understand what I mean by that, but if you don't, let me know)
civilization, so any "records" it has of events after they were established there, would, by definition, not include anything that happened prior.

But, Chinese writing DOES include evidence of the flood, as well as other things pre-flood. It's in their alphabet.
------------
For example, note the Chinese word for ship, or large boat. This word is made up of three parts:



Eight-person boat
---------------
(From Finding Evidence of Noah’s Ark—In a Single Chinese Word)

There were eight persons on the ark. There are other examples that speak of the events in Eden.

I said artifacts, you know stuff cultures left around, I was refering to we have images of them right around the flood time, we have animals very close to after the flood showing up so they would have evolved from the 1-3 or what ever cat kinds within years wich is beyond anything tenable in evolution.

And dude posting the comnpletly debunked idea of that chinse character, thats not how chinese or such work.no one outside of christianity pesudoscience areas think thats even true. Plus you even point out it's mouth not person, and you don't break up the characters that way, it's two characters not three together.

 

[BPPLEE]

I said artifacts, you know stuff cultures left around, I was refering to we have images of them right around the flood time, we have animals very close to after the flood showing up so they would have evolved from the 1-3 or what ever cat kinds within years wich is beyond anything tenable in evolution.

And dude posting the comnpletly debunked idea of that chinse character, thats not how chinese or such work.no one outside of christianity pesudoscience areas think thats even true. Plus you even point out it's mouth not person, and you don't break up the characters that way, it's two characters not three together.

I always heard their symbol for a flood was 8 mouths. Probably not but I’ve heard it more than once

 

[The Barbarian]

For example, note the Chinese word for ship, or large boat. This word is made up of three parts:

Perhaps it would help to look up what a "sound component" means in Chinese...

 

[Diamond72]

there is simply not enough water in the earth's atmospheric system to produce such a flood.

The world wide flood took place at the time of Pangea. We find dinosaur remains in flood deposits. They were killed in a flood. Also there was a world wide flood where the water froze so most of the earth was covered with frozen water around 14,000 years ago. This is why we are told a day is 1000 years.

 

[Ragdoll]

Too many species, too many mouths to feed. And if you're YEC you have over 1,000 species of dinosaurs and therapod dinosaurs to contend with. And frankly we are definitely on their menu. The Ark would need warehouse sized food and water storages. And what about waste disposal? The stinkiest ark to have ever sailed the global sea. Have you ever driven past a cattle farm but imagine that on a larger scale in an enclosed space? I think Christianity especially the Fundies, may need to accept that the flood was a massive regional one and likely a passed down oral tradition that may grew alittle larger each time it was taught and that was eventually became canonized by Moses and the ancient scribes. But furthermore, it fits the pattern of Yahweh's judgment of the nations throughout the Old Testament. In fact, both Jesus and Peter drew comparisons between the Flood and the destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70 itself a regional, national judgment.

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This is another failed argument that we still see atheists pushing. Back then there were only so many species. What we see today is from centuries of mixed breeding that goes back to original species. So Noah did not have to have every creature you see today on the ark. As for dinosaurs, I doubt he took many of those since he would have brought them on as babies which would have been quite small. Dinosaurs are reptiles and they can grow as long as they are alive. That combined with longevity explains their great size. Noah only brought original kinds of creatures and he did not have to bring everything on the ark. For example, crocodiles could survive on driftwood. So no matter the skepticism Noah did build the ark and he did get many kinds of creatures on the ark.
What we see throughout ancient history is many different Flood accounts. The details may differ some but the main story is the same. And the oldest accounts are all global Floods. Geologically speaking, we find dinosaurs and mammals in sedimentary rock which tells us right there the cause of death was water and lots of it. The Flood best explains fossilzation whereas the K/pg event doesn't have a prayer in explaining fossilization. There are marine fossils found in all mountain peaks in the world, including Mt.Everest. There are also many large whale fossils up in the Andes. They died as a result of the Flood.
As for disease, it is doubtful that there was too much of a problem with disease back then since everything lived well beyond the lifespans of today. Disease only became a major problem after the Flood. The Antediluvian world was a much cleaner and purer earth than what we know today. There was zero pollution in the waters and the air was very healthy to breath. This is not to mention the food selection they had to live on allowed them to live longer lives. But much of that food source became extinct in the Flood. The fossil record shows us that many plants and trees became extinct.
Doubting the validity of Scripture? There is nothing that Moses wrote or even compiled in the Torah that God did not approve of on Mt.Sinai. It would be so much better, even more logical, to question all the absurdities about the K/pg event! Doubt man's word and trust God. Haven't we seen enough liars already? Evolutionists have been in control of our country for decades now and where has that taken us? Just look around, see what you find. We have become like Sodom and morality is rapidly degenerating every year. To trust these evolutionist philosphers over Scripture is to doubt God. And by doubting God you are placing more trust in man, in the ways of the world, which we know leads to destruction. But trust who you may but I will trust God and His word over Pelosi, Schumer, Obama, Biden, Harris and AOC. I will not follow their beliefs because we've seen where they take us and its not a truthful course. Its all deception on their part. Evolutionists are all liars who today are paid liars by the White House. So there is every reason these days to place your trust in God and His word and no reasons to trust the vain imaginations of man (Romans 1:18-32).

 

[Ragdoll]

Was there enough water on the earth for the Flood? Sure there was! Just recently there was a discovery of underground oceans larger than our oceans above ground. Now when people claim there was not enough water for the Flood I have to question them by asking where did water come from if not God? Evolutionists have no valid exlanation for water. But Scripture says the universe and earth was made by water! So when water is discovered in space or on Mars it should be no surprise since Scripture says everything was made by water.

People also make the mistake of comparing today's world with the Antediluvian world. What they don't understand is that the earth was destroyed by water and rapid erosion changed the entire scructure of landmass. What we see as oceans today was once solid ground. But the Flood caused landmass to erode and what we call land bridges collasped into what we know see as the oceans today. There is still plenty of water on earth even today for the Flood to happen. But with lower elevations caused by erosion that left our oceans a worldwide Flood will never happen again.
How ironic that people deny the reality of the Flood that took place on earth and then claim there was a near global flood on Mars! And not only that, but the K/pg extinction theory changes like the moon. These days, evolutionists accept a sort of global flood caused by an asteroid impact in the Yucatan. They had to accept some type of flood because.....they were losing! The abudence of sedimentary rock on earth proves that the entire earth was covered by water. The fossil record was made by water which means the creatures in the fossil record were buried alive in the sediments where they became a fossil. If mass amounts of water is dismissed from the extinction event then there is no explanation for sedimentary rock and the fossils found therein. And what really burns evolutionists is how much water there is on the earth even today! They do not have a rational explanation for how water got here. The K/pg extinction theory answers nothing and is very easily refuted by real science.

 

[The Barbarian]

This is another failed argument that we still see atheists pushing. Back then there were only so many species. What we see today is from centuries of mixed breeding that goes back to original species.

Interesting. So those hundreds of thousands of species evolved after the flood? That would involve a lot of evolution. You might be surprised that someone (a YE creationist BTW) actually tried to calculate the room needed and how much hyperevolution would be necessary after the flood. Try to find Noah's Ark; a Feasibility Study by John Woodmorappe (a nom de plume, BTW) which discusses the issue. It has some big holes in its assumption, but I'll leave them for you to find. Hint: what is the scientific definition of biological evolution?

Or if you'd like to discuss some of them here, I'll be happy to show them to you. I've discussed this with Woodmorappe; he seemed like a sincere and decent fellow.

 

[The Barbarian]

not only that, but the K/pg extinction theory changes like the moon. These days, evolutionists accept a sort of global flood caused by an asteroid impact in the Yucatan.

Big wave, but hardly a global flood. The K-T disaster was rather different than a flood. We know that it was worldwide, because there's a layer of iridium dust at a specific time, laid down over the entire Earth. Iridium is a significant component in most asteroids, but not in the Earth's crust. You've been misled about that in some respects, it seems. The Wikipedia article is actually pretty good and up to date, but you probably want to search "Deccan Traps" for some other possible contributing factors.

Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If you have some background in geology, there are more technical articles out there. Let me know if you'd like to read them.

 

[truthpls]

Too many species, too many mouths to feed. And if you're YEC you have over 1,000 species of dinosaurs and therapod dinosaurs to contend with.

If they were before the flood how is that an issue?

And frankly we are definitely on their menu. The Ark would need warehouse sized food and water storages.

Water falling everywhere, that seems to be no problem having too little water. As for food consumption, if most creatures were in some sort of semi hibernation state, how much would they eat?

And what about waste disposal?

Out the window? Perhaps since God designed the ark, He may even have included some outlets for that. Even modern cruise ships have this policy (though I hear they often do otherwise) "But if the sewage is not treated this can be discharged 12 nautical miles away from the nearest land." Sewage Treatment Plant on a Ship Explained
There was NO land then, so it doesn't seem to be a problem. Another thought is that many rocks thought to be possibly from before or near the flood are limestone. These days they have to get the lime out again. Who knows but that Noah brought some sewage treatment agent on board as well? We also might wonder about the seas at the time and whether all sorts of stuff got mixed in the water that could have been conducive to waste disposal? Remember there also was a world of animals and people that died in the water. God thinks of everything.

 

[truthpls]

how much hyperevolution would be necessary after the flood.

If it was needed, why would we doubt it happened?

 

[The Barbarian]

If it was needed, why would we doubt it happened?

For one thing, no one thought it was worth mentioning new species popping up monthly. Seems like something someone would notice.
For another thing, it would only be needed if you altered Genesis to make the flood a global flood. For another thing, it seems kinda unlikely that the Koalas would hike from the mountains of Ararat to Australia on their own. Multiply that by thousands of such cases, and it just becomes too absurd to seriously consider.

Water falling everywhere, that seems to be no problem having too little water. As for food consumption, if most creatures were in some sort of semi hibernation state, how much would they eat?

So yet another unscriptural miracle to save the new doctrine? How many are we going to have to patch in to make it work?

Who knows but that Noah brought some sewage treatment agent on board as well?

I guess if we can call in miracles as needed, why not just imaginary technology, too?