A flat earth and an earth-centered universe

Uber Genius · Dec 12, 2018

This topic seems to be posted over and over again.

Total scam. There is a consistent witness that the Earth is round dating back 2500 years. This is a scam by 18th and 19th century atheists to mock and deride Christians as ignorant. It is nothing but an ad hominem attack.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/flat-earth-myth.7972319/

SeventyOne · Dec 12, 2018

Uber Genius said:
This topic seems to be posted over and over again.

Total scam. There is a consistent witness that the Earth is round dating back 2500 years. This is a scam by 18th and 19th century atheists to mock and deride Christians as ignorant. It is nothing but an ad hominem attack.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/flat-earth-myth.7972319/

It's posted over and over again because it is a real thing and is not going away. Ever. People had just better get used to it. With any hope, my grandsons generation will effectively start to throw off the heliocentric/evolutionary model plaguing us for the last few centuries.

Nihilist Virus · Dec 12, 2018

SeventyOne said:
It's posted over and over again because it is a real thing and is not going away. Ever. People had just better get used to it. With any hope, my grandsons generation will effectively start to throw off the heliocentric/evolutionary model plaguing us for the last few centuries.

You indicated to me that you don't want to discuss the science, so I asked if you could elaborate on the worldwide conspiracy at work. Is that also something you don't like to discuss?

SeventyOne · Dec 12, 2018

Nihilist Virus said:
You indicated to me that you don't want to discuss the science, so I asked if you could elaborate on the worldwide conspiracy at work. Is that also something you don't like to discuss?

Actually, I've discussed the science in great detail. I just refuse to do it any further on this forum. There are past threads to peruse should one feel so inclined.

Which conspiracy in particular? The one that starts by perverting the creation account, claiming the earth was spit out of the sun after the sun formed from collected particles over billions of years, which in turn came from a banging nothing? The same one that has been used to birth evolution, aliens, and transhumanism? The one that causes people to think that if scripture didn't get it right at the beginning, what else did it get wrong? A lot of people headed to hell for trusting in that fat pack of lies.

The shape of the earth, the one thing that is never to be questioned, at all, whatsoever. Whoever does is a mental case, a nut, an expired brain fart, the scum layered under festering pond scum. However, this is exactly how one should know such an area requires deep questioning.

Uber Genius · Dec 12, 2018

SeventyOne said:
It's posted over and over again because it is a real thing and is not going away. Ever. People had just better get used to it. With any hope, my grandsons generation will effectively start to throw off the heliocentric/evolutionary model plaguing us for the last few centuries.

So when you say, "it is a real thing," are you are in favor of a view that wasn't held by Church Fathers, or most ancient civilizations, and is a recent scam? Or were you saying the scam is real and that is why people keep posting it in order to make Christians appear ignorant and attack Christian ideas using an ad hominem fallacy?

Uber Genius · Dec 12, 2018

SeventyOne said:
The shape of the earth, the one thing that is never to be questioned, at all, whatsoever. Whoever does is a mental case, a nut, an expired brain fart, the scum layered under festering pond scum. However, this is exactly how one should know such an area requires deep questioning.

I'm not sure about your method here. Why doubt that scientific knowledge about the shape of the Earth, why think it is a conspiracy?

Theists argue from the evidence that God is the best explanation of the beginning of the universe from nothing, no space, no time, no matter, no energy. These arguments for God are known broadly as cosmological and narrowly as Kalam after al Ghazali, 10th century (I think) Arabic philosopher who created them.

SeventyOne · Dec 12, 2018

Uber Genius said:
So when you say, "it is a real thing," are you are in favor of a view that wasn't held by Church Fathers, or most ancient civilizations, and is a recent scam? Or were you saying the scam is real and that is why people keep posting it in order to make Christians appear ignorant and attack Christian ideas using an ad hominem fallacy?

I'm saying the earth is flat, regardless of the way you choose to depict it.

SeventyOne · Dec 12, 2018

Uber Genius said:
I'm not sure about your method here. Why doubt that scientific knowledge about the shape of the Earth, why think it is a conspiracy?

Well, scientific knowledge is derived by the hundreds of independent curvature and motion tests over the last few years repeatedly demonstrating no curve or motion, while being both observable and repeatable. Ignore that, and you'd be among the so-called science deniers. It's not the flat-earthers with their heads in the sand at this point. No worries though. Like I said, it's not going away, ever.

Theists argue from the evidence that God is the best explanation of the beginning of the universe from nothing, no space, no time, no matter, no energy. These arguments for God are known broadly as cosmological and narrowly as Kalam after al Ghazali, 10th century (I think) Arabic philosopher who created them.

It's an argument from ignorance. Not sure how promoting a deceptive narrative is somehow supposed to be evidence for God.

Uber Genius · Dec 12, 2018

SeventyOne said:
Ignore that, and you'd be among the so-called science deniers.

I don't care what people call me, if I "Ignore that," I ignore the fact that God said in Romans 1:19-20 ESV "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

So why would any Christian ignore nature that can be "clearly perceived," using scientific method that came from mostly Christian philosophers with a few exceptions namely Hume. This is how Newton looked at science. He thought it revealed God's creation.

If God has given us things like memory, senses, testimony, introspection, and rationality, for which to "Clearly perceive," the things that are created, who are you to reject God's design?

Hieronymus · Dec 12, 2018

It's a spinning spheroid.
Maybe in or near the centre of the universe though, because apparently the red shift is similar in all directions.

Uber Genius · Dec 12, 2018

SeventyOne said:
It's an argument from ignorance. Not sure how promoting a deceptive narrative is somehow supposed to be evidence for God.

You need to make a case for skepticism of all scientific knowledge without destroying knowledge through testimony such as we get from the Bible. It seems dubious.

The only way you get the Kalam to be an argument from ignorance if you are able to debunk millions of experimental facts across over 40 different scientific experiments performed since the 1970s.

What you are going to have trouble doing is destroying "cherry picking" just the data that doesn't support your views whatever they may be at the time.

So I just gave you a clue as to what was wrong with your approach.

"Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position."

Now instead of stringing together data and only data that supports your inference, you are reducing data in support of the universe coming into existence from no space, no time, no matter, no energy. I better let you go... that is a lot of data to delete in order to make your inference fit.

Hieronymus · Dec 12, 2018

SeventyOne said:
Well, scientific knowledge is derived by the hundreds of independent curvature and motion tests over the last few years repeatedly demonstrating no curve or motion, while being both observable and repeatable. Ignore that, and you'd be among the so-called science deniers. It's not the flat-earthers with their heads in the sand at this point. No worries though. Like I said, it's not going away, ever.

PROOF the earth is a spinning globe:
Sextant (navigation), night sky varies with latitude, slightly less gravity on the equator than on the poles due to centrifugal force, maps and distances. This is impossible in a flat earth model. No need for flying freemasons and their ambiguous video footage.

It's an argument from ignorance. Not sure how promoting a deceptive narrative is somehow supposed to be evidence for God.

Then i think maybe you don't understand the Kalam argument.

JohnClay · Dec 12, 2018

Uber Genius said:
This topic seems to be posted over and over again.

Total scam. There is a consistent witness that the Earth is round dating back 2500 years. This is a scam by 18th and 19th century atheists to mock and deride Christians as ignorant. It is nothing but an ad hominem attack.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/flat-earth-myth.7972319/

That link isn't working for me. Also most of the OT would have been written more than 2500 years ago. And there is no evidence that they thought the earth was spherical in the NT.

JohnClay · Dec 12, 2018

Uber Genius said:
So when you say, "it is a real thing," are you are in favor of a view that wasn't held by Church Fathers, or most ancient civilizations, and is a recent scam?....

What I'm talking about is what the Bible's authors thought.

Nihilist Virus · Dec 12, 2018

SeventyOne said:
Actually, I've discussed the science in great detail. I just refuse to do it any further on this forum. There are past threads to peruse should one feel so inclined.

Ok.

Which conspiracy in particular?

That the earth is a sphere.

The one that starts by perverting the creation account, claiming the earth was spit out of the sun after the sun formed from collected particles over billions of years, which in turn came from a banging nothing?

It didn't start with that. I don't think the Greeks were aware of stellar accretion theory.

The same one that has been used to birth evolution, aliens, and transhumanism?

I'm talking about the shape of the earth.

The one that causes people to think that if scripture didn't get it right at the beginning, what else did it get wrong? A lot of people headed to hell for trusting in that fat pack of lies.

The Bible is beholden to reality. Not the other way around.

The shape of the earth, the one thing that is never to be questioned, at all, whatsoever. Whoever does is a mental case, a nut, an expired brain fart, the scum layered under festering pond scum. However, this is exactly how one should know such an area requires deep questioning.

And I was willing to question it but you don't want to go over the science. Now you're dodging my question about the conspiracy. Evolution, aliens and transhumanism couldn't be less relevant.

SeventyOne · Dec 12, 2018

Uber Genius said:
I don't care what people call me, if I "Ignore that," I ignore the fact that God said in Romans 1:19-20 ESV "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

So why would any Christian ignore nature that can be "clearly perceived," using scientific method that came from mostly Christian philosophers with a few exceptions namely Hume. This is how Newton looked at science. He thought it revealed God's creation.

If God has given us things like memory, senses, testimony, introspection, and rationality, for which to "Clearly perceive," the things that are created, who are you to reject God's design?

Reject it? I embrace it even more now that I understand it better.

SeventyOne · Dec 12, 2018

Uber Genius said:
You need to make a case for skepticism of all scientific knowledge without destroying knowledge through testimony such as we get from the Bible. It seems dubious.

The only way you get the Kalam to be an argument from ignorance if you are able to debunk millions of experimental facts across over 40 different scientific experiments performed since the 1970s.

What you are going to have trouble doing is destroying "cherry picking" just the data that doesn't support your views whatever they may be at the time.

So I just gave you a clue as to what was wrong with your approach.

"Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position."

Now instead of stringing together data and only data that supports your inference, you are reducing data in support of the universe coming into existence from no space, no time, no matter, no energy. I better let you go... that is a lot of data to delete in order to make your inference fit.

I get the feeling that between the two of us, only one of us have looked objectively at the evidence of both sides of the argument.

SeventyOne · Dec 12, 2018

Nihilist Virus said:
Ok.

That the earth is a sphere.

It didn't start with that. I don't think the Greeks were aware of stellar accretion theory.

I'm talking about the shape of the earth.

The Bible is beholden to reality. Not the other way around.

And I was willing to question it but you don't want to go over the science. Now you're dodging my question about the conspiracy. Evolution, aliens and transhumanism couldn't be less relevant.

I've dodged nothing. In fact I've been very open about everything on every point.

Just trying to nail down what you are talking about. And evolution, aliens, and transhumanism couldn't be more relevant. It's the lie of the globe that they all rest on. Once the globe is shattered, so are they. The globe is the granddaddy of secular humanistic lies.

cvanwey · Dec 12, 2018

SeventyOne said:
I get the feeling that between the two of us, only one of us have looked objectively at the evidence of both sides of the argument.

I get the feeling that one of us has the predisposition of the Bible, as their predetermined filter. Where-as others just look at the presented evidence, and assess accordingly

So one must ask, if evidence was to present, which demonstrates the earth IS a sphere, would you then have no choice but to discredit the Bible? Or, would you continue to retain belief, and augment certain beliefs accordingly? Meaning, would you still fully retain belief in the Bible, or would you then have no choice but to reject the Bible? Meaning, does this specific topic really even matter one way or another???

Nihilist Virus · Dec 12, 2018

SeventyOne said:
I've dodged nothing. In fact I've been very open about everything on every point.

I've asked you to elaborate on the spherical earth conspiracy. You went on to mention other conspiracies. At no point did you give details on anything.

Just trying to nail down what you are talking about.

The shape of the earth.

And evolution, aliens, and transhumanism couldn't be more relevant.

Aliens. If your position holds that stars aren't actual worlds but just specks of light, then there's nowhere from which aliens could come. But our foil-hat friends are saying that aliens do exist and that their existence is being hidden by a government conspiracy. So what is your position? That aliens don't exist, but that the government is fabricating fake evidence for them and then covering up that evidence? Makes no sense.

Evolution. I don't understand how this is relevant to the shape of the earth. It's population genetics, nothing more. And transhumanism? How is the idea of human augmentation or interfacing with machines in any way relevant to the shape of the earth?

It's the lie of the globe that they all rest on.

Aliens are a lie? Who's even saying they are real? Transhumanism absolutely is not a lie. Cyborgs exist, at least in a trivial sense. Ever heard of a pacemaker?

And evolution would still work on a flat earth.

Once the globe is shattered, so are they.

Why? Can you elaborate please?

The globe is the granddaddy of secular humanistic lies.

For what purpose or gain? Why?

A flat earth and an earth-centered universe

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