• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

A finely tuned universe that points to a God.

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,738
58
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟126,756.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian

No, it wasn't.

There really isn't any way to support the idea that Quantum Physics supports Idealism when that plainly isn't the case. Quantum Physics is thoroughly Realist. It doesn't take much investigation of what the big names in the field have had to say in order to see that. For instance, the quote from Bell that you dodge.

But I'm through with this conversation. I don't have the patience to wade through that much pseudoscience.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JimFit

Newbie
May 24, 2012
359
1
✟22,989.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship

Polymath's Video was debunked in this url, its your choice to ignore it. You can also comment on Inspiring Philosophy video or blog and get your a** whipped by him.

https://inspiringphilosophy.wordpre...ath-quantum-bayesism-wave-functions-and-more/

I too can provide quotes from other Scientists but its the fallacy of authority. I don't know what realism has to do with Materialism.
 
Upvote 0

Non sequitur

Wokest Bae Of The Forum
Jul 2, 2011
4,532
541
Oklahoma City, OK
✟53,280.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
You can debunk this paper which even Victor Stenger couldn't do it and then we will have a talk about the Fine Tuning

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1112/1112.4647v1.pdf

If I used that merely the logic of that paper, the universe was even MORE fine tuned for me eating spaghetti tonight.

I'm an intelligent being in this crazy universe...and I made pasta for dinner this exact Thursday?!?

WHAT ARE THE ODDS

FINE TUNED! FINE TUNED! FINE TUNED!


That paper only shows that a small subset of things permits the existence of intelligent life. If that is somehow a thing of importance, then you are asserting it based on your own opinion.

The one exists and the other doesn't.

Well, I'm done.

If you can't answer one question without being vapid, there is nothing of value you have to offer any conversation.
 
Upvote 0

Archaeopteryx

Wanderer
Jul 1, 2007
22,229
2,608
✟78,240.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private

The universe has been fine tuned just so that you could read this reply. Isn't that amazing?
 
Upvote 0

Archaeopteryx

Wanderer
Jul 1, 2007
22,229
2,608
✟78,240.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I am an Idealist Panentheist and you didn't addressed anything i said, you are just whining that your nihilism is wrong .

I'm not a nihilist.


Except that we have no evidence that a disembodied consciousness independent of time and space can even exist, much less cause other things to begin existing from pure nothingness.
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

re Member
Aug 28, 2007
27,469
19,166
Colorado
✟528,756.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
What is it with atheists and their dam pasta???
 
Upvote 0

xTx

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2010
2,005
326
✟26,241.00
Faith
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican

You have a very interesting mind. Why don't you believe in God? Or the existence of God?
 
Upvote 0

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,738
58
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟126,756.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
Why don't you believe in God? Or the existence of God?

I have not encountered any sufficiently convincing reasons to believe in the existence of any God or gods, and I have spoken with many theists over the years. There are an infinite number of possible beliefs, or at least an uncountably large number of them, and I have no reason to take belief in God as a default belief. A better default position is based on my life experience at its most self-evident, which is simply that I'm a human being living a human life, and to work from there.

I am not intellectually hedonistic. I don't believe in the existence of anything just because it might make me feel good, or because it seems like a fun belief, or out of fear that I might end up in some religion's torture pit.

I care about truth and wisdom, and that requires a great deal of honesty with oneself. It is very easy to fall into error. Someone had once said that "it's good to be open-minded, but not so open that one's brain falls out". Open-mindedness goes hand in hand with good critical thinking skills, because those skills are what helps one to sift truth from falsehood.

Besides, I don't need the concept of God to explain anything about the world. Science does an admirable job of explaining the universe. Philosophy (the sort I like) does an admirable job dealing with ethical issues. And my non-theistic spirituality does reasonably well dealing with existential issues such as meaning in life and the reality of death.

Ultimately, my answer to you is that my authentic self is not theistic, and I strive to live authentically.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Upvote 0

xTx

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2010
2,005
326
✟26,241.00
Faith
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican

Interesting theory - to me the concept of God is a theory that man is trying to grasp.

I am certain there is intelligent life out there, billions of years old.

Look at how far we have come in a few hundred years.

Nothing compared to the billions of year of 'guru'

I am open to the possibility that there is / could be something there -

Religious philosophers call it God, others rely on science ...

Until we die, none of us can know for sure what is out there.

However, I have seen things with my own eyes that is not of our world.

I am certain there is kindness and love out there. Beyond the realm of man.
 
Upvote 0

JimFit

Newbie
May 24, 2012
359
1
✟22,989.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
If I used that merely the logic of that paper, the universe was even MORE fine tuned for me eating spaghetti tonight.

Resorting to cheap responses doesn't give you an argument, it makes you look even more stupid.

I'm an intelligent being in this crazy universe...and I made pasta for dinner this exact Thursday?!?

You are not intelligent you believe in Randomness, Chance and Nothingness.

WHAT ARE THE ODDS

FINE TUNED! FINE TUNED! FINE TUNED!

The Anthropic Principle goes together with Multiverses which also demand a beginning, The real question is if the Universe is due to chance or intention, everything points to intention, chance doesn't even exist to propose it as an answer.


That paper only shows that a small subset of things permits the existence of intelligent life. If that is somehow a thing of importance, then you are asserting it based on your own opinion.

Atheists Scientists disagree with you

Wilczek: life appears to depend upon delicate coincidences that we have not been able to explain. The broad outlines of that situation have been apparent for many decades. When less was known, it seemed reasonable to hope that better understanding of symmetry and dynamics would clear things up. Now that hope seems much less reasonable. The happy coincidences between life’s requirements and nature’s choices of parameter values might be just a series of flukes, but one could be forgiven for beginning to suspect that something deeper is at work.


Hawking: “Most of the fundamental constants in our theories appear fine-tuned in the sense that if they were altered by only modest amounts, the universe would be qualitatively different, and in many cases unsuitable for the development of life. … The emergence of the complex structures capable of supporting intelligent observers seems to be very fragile. The laws of nature form a system that is extremely fine-tuned, and very little in physical law can be altered without destroying the possibility of the development of life as we know it.”


Rees: Any universe hospitable to life – what we might call a biophilic universe – has to be ‘adjusted’ in a particular way. The prerequisites for any life of the kind we know about — long-lived stable stars, stable atoms such as carbon, oxygen and silicon, able to combine into complex molecules, etc — are sensitive to the physical laws and to the size, expansion rate and contents of the universe. Indeed, even for the most open-minded science fiction writer, ‘life’ or ‘intelligence’ requires the emergence of some generic complex structures: it can’t exist in a homogeneous universe, not in a universe containing only a few dozen particles. Many recipes would lead to stillborn universes with no atoms, no chemistry, and no planets; or to universes too short-lived or too empty to allow anything to evolve beyond sterile uniformity.


Linde: the existence of an amazingly strong correlation between our own properties and the values of many parameters of our world, such as the masses and charges of electron and proton, the value of the gravitational constant, the amplitude of spontaneous symmetry breaking in the electroweak theory, the value of the vacuum energy, and the dimensionality of our world, is an experimental fact requiring an explanation.
Susskind: The Laws of Physics … are almost always deadly. In a sense the laws of nature are like East Coast weather: tremendously variable, almost always awful, but on rare occasions, perfectly lovely. … [O]ur own universe is an extraordinary place that appears to be fantastically well designed for our own existence. This specialness is not something that we can attribute to lucky accidents, which is far too unlikely. The apparent coincidences cry out for an explanation.


Guth: in the multiverse, life will evolve only in very rare regions where the local laws of physics just happen to have the properties needed for life, giving a simple explanation for why the observed universe appears to have just the right properties for the evolution of life. The incredibly small value of the cosmological constant is a telling example of a feature that seems to be needed for life, but for which an explanation from fundamental physics is painfully lacking.


Smolin: Our universe is much more complex than most universes with the same laws but different values of the parameters of those laws. In particular, it has a complex astrophysics, including galaxies and long lived stars, and a complex chemistry, including carbon chemistry. These necessary conditions for life are present in our universe as a consequence of the complexity which is made possible by the special values of the parameters.


Victor Stenger: The most commonly cited examples of apparent fine-tuning can be readily explained by the application of a little well-established physics and cosmology. . . . ome form of life would have occurred in most universes that could be described by the same physical models as ours, with parameters whose ranges varied over ranges consistent with those models. … . My case against fine-tuning will not rely on speculations beyond well-established physics nor on the existence of multiple universes.




Well, I'm done.

If you can't answer one question without being vapid, there is nothing of value you have to offer any conversation.

I already did but you don't seem to want to understand , your faith that you are a purposeless random cosmic mistake is too strong to accept it, anyway for the Universe to exist it must obey some extremely tuned values that cannot be changed and still have a Universe, imagine the values like the numbers that open the safe, you must find the exact values to open the safe. If the Hubble Constant was smaller or bigger the Universe wouldn't exist at all therefor something not tuned leads to non existence. If you are wondering when God tuned anything to exist its the wrong question, these values describe the Omniscience of God and not the other way around.

If you can debunk the Constants or find a physical explanation that's fine but you can't and you resort to cheap philosophical arguments.

Dr Guillermo Gonzalez surveys and briefly, simply explains several fine tuning cases behind the cosmological design inference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M39BKwtUAyA

 
Upvote 0

JimFit

Newbie
May 24, 2012
359
1
✟22,989.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
 
Upvote 0

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,738
58
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟126,756.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
Atheism =/= Nihilism

I corrected your typo.

Atheists believe that their existence is a purposeless random mistake

That is not what I believe. I don't believe that deities had anything to do with my existence, but I could not honestly endorse what you have written above.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Non sequitur

Wokest Bae Of The Forum
Jul 2, 2011
4,532
541
Oklahoma City, OK
✟53,280.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution

I asked, "How can you determine the difference between something fine tuned and something not?" and your response was one exists and the other does not. I don't believe that response is the extent of your critical thinking skills.

You either keep calling things fine tuned and/or manufacture importance. If the Hubble Constant was smaller or bigger the universe wouldn't exist... so what?

That doesn't show that constants were made so the universe could exist, just that the constants allow it to exist, as is.

Again, you are manufacturing and creating purpose where there doesn't need to or have to be. Why not just be honest and say you think there has to be a purpose to life, etc.?
 
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,792
✟254,941.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others

You will never get an answer to your question, because not even the handful of scientists who subscribe to; fine tuning/intelligent design, can define what it is and devise a falsifiable test to determine when it is present.
 
Upvote 0

Freodin

Devout believer in a theologically different God
Mar 9, 2002
15,713
3,762
Germany, Bavaria, Middle Franconia
Visit site
✟260,281.00
Faith
Atheist

The mathematics of propability, used in this same way, clearly proves the impossibility of just about everything that we - even people like you! - would consider "our universe". That includes even things like "microevolution"... which is stochastically impossible.

The only common sense result is the intelligent design of our Creator... for anything. For everything.


Even this post.


Consider this.
 
Upvote 0

JimFit

Newbie
May 24, 2012
359
1
✟22,989.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
I asked, "How can you determine the difference between something fine tuned and something not?" and your response was one exists and the other does not. I don't believe that response is the extent of your critical thinking skills.

I think it can be shown that the probability of a universe capable of supporting ANY form of complex life is one out of infinity (or in comprehensible terms: exactly zero). This sounds like a grandiose claim, but it seems to me to be obvious, once you consider any fine tuned constant. Consider, for example, the fine tuning of gravity. The fine tuning of it is 1 part in 10^40. That is +/- 1 part away from that value would be life prohibiting (at least for any complex life). Though it should be enough to reasonably infer design. That is only looking at how sensitive that value is to change. It doesn’t really address what that value could have been. That is, when you also consider what the range of possible values could have been outside of the life permitting range, then you are looking at the probability that the value you have would even be what it is. There could be possibly be an infinite number of possible values for the gravitational constant.
For example, suppose the gravitational constant was increased +1. The fine-tuning argument would suggest gravity would be so great, that the universe would collapse in on itself before life had any chance to evolve (insomuch as any macro-evolution can occur in the first place). Ok. We added +1 to what the gravitational constant could have been. What if it was +2. Then we don’t need to do the math to know that it would be even more life prohibitive. How about +3? Still no life. Why stop there….How about +4? +5? …..etc… to.+infinity? The same goes in the opposite direction. -1 and the universe can’t form heavy elements, and stars would not form (insomuch as stars could form from a big bang in the first place). If you go -2 from fine tuning, you obviously don’t help the prospects, you logically hurt the prospects of any form of life. This would go all the way that possible range will go (probably to 0). But you still have an infinite number of possibilities.
So, I’d content, if it can be shown that the range of possibilities could be infinite, then it necessarily means that our universe is infinitely fine tuned.
And that’s just looking at one fine tuned constant.
One might attempt to counter act the problem, but let’s be honest. ANY possible way one might think of to increase the range can be met with an infinite number of ways to break it. Breaking is easy…fixing, is not.
Design is the only rational conclusion.


You either keep calling things fine tuned and/or manufacture importance.

I am not the one that talks about Fine Tuning...Cosmologists are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDMpWcf4ee0

Even Stenger who fought the Fine Tuning said this

The most commonly cited examples of apparent fine-tuning can be readily explained by the application of a little well-established physics and cosmology. . . . ome form of life would have occurred in most universes that could be described by the same physical models as ours, with parameters whose ranges varied over ranges consistent with those models. … . My case against fine-tuning will not rely on speculations beyond well-established physics nor on the existence of multiple universes.

If the Hubble Constant was smaller or bigger the universe wouldn't exist... so what?

So...change one value and you don't have a Universe. Multiverses also need the Hubble Constant to exist also they demand a beginning, you are trapped.

That doesn't show that constants were made so the universe could exist, just that the constants allow it to exist, as is.



So the constants are uncaused from nothing?

Again, you are manufacturing and creating purpose where there doesn't need to or have to be. Why not just be honest and say you think there has to be a purpose to life, etc.?

God has no purpose because He is Eternal, Eternity removes purpose, humans have purpose not the constants, not God.


Please listen to me, the Fine Tuning is a fact that has been proven over and over again. Even Atheists Cosmologists accept it and try to find a way to solve it, even Atheists Cosmologists put the 3 options, Physical Necessity, Chance or Design.

Lets say that the Constants are not really constants, what does that lead to? Well it leads to other Constants that determine those, the Constants that were thought to be objective are now subjective because of the discovery of another Constant that change them, the problem still moves to a level up, the problem is that turtles all the way up or down is disproved, you can't have something past infinite there has to be an objective constant because the physical reality began together with time and space! You can't escape that, lets name this Constant Mother Constant, this Constant didn't evolved, someone just put it there to create the other Constant therefor this Constant STILL NEEDS EXPLANATION!
 
Upvote 0

JimFit

Newbie
May 24, 2012
359
1
✟22,989.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
You will never get an answer to your question, because not even the handful of scientists who subscribe to; fine tuning/intelligent design, can define what it is and devise a falsifiable test to determine when it is present.

You are wrong, recently the speed of light was disproved as a constant because it changes in quantum vacuum.

Speed of Light May Not Be Constant, Physicists Say | Cosmology & Astronomy

Here is the Definition of Fine Tuning

Fine-tuned Universe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3jvfvho3CE

Here are the facts on the fine-tuning:

Life has certain minimal requirements;

long-term stable source of energy, a large number of different chemical elements, an element that can serve as a hub for joining together other elements into compounds, etc.
In order to meet these minimal requirements, the physical constants, (such as the gravitational constant), and the ratios between physical constants, need to be withing a narrow range of values in order to support the minimal requirements for life of any kind.
Slight changes to any of the physical constants, or to the rations between the constants, will result in a universe inhospitable to life.

The range of possible ranges over 70 orders of magnitude.

The constants are selected by whoever creates the universe. They are not determined by physical laws. And the extreme probabilities involved required put the fine-tuning beyond the reach of chance.

Although each individual selection of constants and ratios is as unlikely as any other selection, the vast majority of these possibilities do not support the minimal requirements of life of any kind. (In the same way as any hand of 5 cards that is dealt is as likely as any other, but you are overwhelmingly likely NOT to get a royal flush. In our case, a royal flush is a life-permitting universe).

*Examples of finely-tuned constants*

Here are a couple of examples of the fine-tuning. Craig only gave one example in the debate and didn’t explain how changes to the constant would affect the minimal requirements for life. But Bradley does explain it, and he is a professional research scientist, so he is speaking about things he worked in his polymer research lab. (He was the director)

a) The strong force: (the force that binds nucleons (= protons and neutrons) together in nucleus, by means of meson exchange)
if the strong force constant were 2% stronger, there would be no stable hydrogen, no long-lived stars, no hydrogen containing compounds. This is because the single proton in hydrogen would want to stick to something else so badly that there would be no hydrogen left!
if the strong force constant were 5% weaker, there would be no stable stars, few (if any) elements besides hydrogen. This is because you would be able to build up the nuclei of the heavier elements, which contain more than 1 proton.
So, whether you adjust the strong force up or down, you lose stars than can serve as long-term sources of stable energy, or you lose chemical diversity, which is necessary to make beings that can perform the minimal requirements of living beings. (see below)

b) The conversion of beryllium to carbon, and carbon to oxygen
Life requires carbon in order to serve as the hub for complex molecules, but it also requires oxygen in order to create water.
Carbon is like the hub wheel in a tinker toy set: you can bind other elements together to more complicated molecules (e.g. – “carbon-based life), but the bonds are not so tight that they can’t be broken down again later to make something else.
The carbon resonance level is determined by two constants: the strong force and electromagnetic force.
If you mess with these forces even slightly, you either lose the carbon or the oxygen.
Either way, you’ve got no life of any conceivable kind.
 
Upvote 0