A few questions...

4Jesus · Feb 8, 2003

Originally posted by linda4jesus

In Matthew 1:24 we are told that Joseph 'had no union with Mary until she gave birth to a son'.

What version of the Bible do you use? I use the KJV and Matt.1:24 in the KJV says that Mary gave birth to her "firstborn." 

linda4jesus · Feb 8, 2003

Hi 4Jesus,

I used the NIV. I use biblegateway to post scripture and it always defaults to NIV. I can post KJV.

4Jesus · Feb 8, 2003

Originally posted by ZooMom
Hi, 4Jesus , and thanks for answering! The meaning of 'until' is being debated in the other thread in the debate forum. Have you seen it? What do you think?

Peace be with you.

I looked around but since I am new I can't find the forum you are talking about.

ZooMom · Feb 8, 2003

Originally posted by linda4jesus
Mary was pledged to marry Joseph, she was probably between the age 13-15.

Matthew 1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: his mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.

Joseph was older, my 'guess' around 25 or so.

Matthew 1: 9 Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

I believe that Mary was Joseph's first and only wife. He was able to uproot his family with no ties to leave and go to Egypt. Also, there is no reference to 'other' wives in the Word. As we have seen in the OT and NT, if there are other wives, they are referenced.....None are referenced for Joseph except Mary.

In Matthew 1:24 we are told that Joseph 'had no union with Mary until she gave birth to a son'.

In Matthew 12:46-50, Jesus was speaking to a crowd when his mother and brothers came to speak to him. As stated below....the apostles were with him therefore can not be considered the brothers he was referring to.

Matthew 1:24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Matthew 12: 46-50 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.

Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"

Pointing to his disciples

he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Thanks, Linda! Could you tell me why or how you derive ages from the Scriptures you gave me? Is there another source you reference?

Peace!

linda4jesus · Feb 8, 2003

ok, here's the KJV.

Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS

ZooMom · Feb 8, 2003

Originally posted by 4Jesus
I looked around but since I am new I can't find the forum you are talking about.

Ack! Sorry! Go to the top of the page and click on 'Congregation', then go to Interdenominational Doctrinal Debate, then go to the thread titled 'A Simple Question about Mary's Virginity'. You might like to read through the whole thread.

4Jesus · Feb 8, 2003

Originally posted by ZooMom
Ack! Sorry! Go to the top of the page and click on 'Congregation', then go to Interdenominational Doctrinal Debate, then go to the thread titled 'A Simple Question about Mary's Virginity'. You might like to read through the whole thread.

Ookie Dokie!

linda4jesus · Feb 8, 2003

Originally posted by ZooMom
Thanks, Linda! Could you tell me why or how you derive ages from the Scriptures you gave me? Is there another source you reference?

Peace!

Hi ZooMom,

In doing research to answer your question, I came across the following information regarding Jewish customs in the first century; polygamy and the betrothal process.

Polygamy.....except for rare cases (priests), was not practiced in the first century among the Jews. Many scholars contend that polygamy all but disappeared by the time of Christ.

Betrothal and Marriage process

- first, a negotiation took place

- second, at the conclusion of the negotiation and the exchange of gifts (possibly sealing the covenant between the families), the couple were considered betrothed. The bride was introduced, and the covenant was sealed with a cup of wine

- third, the girl would normally be transferred to her husband's home

- fourth, the marriage was consummated

Steps two, three and four could occur over a short period of time, or they could be extended over years. If the girl was extremely young, the waiting period might be considerable.

The waiting period between betrothal and marriage was usually twelve months in the case of a virgin and three months in the case of a widow.
If a girl or woman was a slave or a captive taken in war, the first step was omitted and all that was necessary was physical consummation to make the person a concubine (Deut. 21:13).

It should be recognized that betrothal was much more binding than our contemporary custom of engagement. Betrothal was considered so binding that the woman is referred to as a wife (e.g., Deut. 28:30; Judges 14:15, 16, 20; 15:1; I. Sam., 19:11; II Sam. 3:14).

Apparently, physical consummation was thought to complete the marriage in the realm of personal relationship, just as the bride-gift was essential in the forging of the relationship. The woman was considered a wife regardless of whether the man and woman had sexual intercourse.

n2messiah.topcities.com/199.html

ZooMom · Feb 8, 2003

Great! Thanks, Linda. So, does Scripture indicate to you that the normal process for betrothal and marriage was followed in the case of Mary and Joseph?

The woman was considered a wife regardless of whether the man and woman had sexual intercourse.

Interesting observation!

I want to assure you, Linda, and anyone else who may be wondering, that I have no ulterior motives for asking these questions. We all know that certain Doctrines regarding Mary are a big deal to Catholics, and that many times when the issue comes up, Catholics tend to swing hard to the right while non-Catholics swing hard to the left, with both sides being so defensive that they can overrepresent their view. The result of that is usually that Catholics come off as over-emphasizing Mary to the point of seeming worship, while non-Catholics come off as under-emphasizing Mary to the point of seeming denigration. Neither is at all an accurate representation. As a Catholic, especially as a convert, I have made it my business to know exactly what the Church teaches regarding Mary and why. I have read the ECF and the Scriptures, the Councils and the Catechism, and I know exactly why I believe as I do.

However, before I became Catholic, I had certain assumptions regarding Mary and Joseph. These included that Mary was very young, Joseph probably close to her in age, young couple very much in love, etc...I don't know where or how I arrived at these assumptions because when I converted and started looking for the bible to confirm them, I was a bit astonished that it did not. And the other day, the thought just occured to me to ask if there is any foundation at all for what seems to be a pretty common list of assumptions across the board for non-Catholics regarding Mary and Joseph. And I call them assumptions only because I personally can find no concrete Scriptural evidence to support anything regarding my first four questions. I think it's a natural inclination to want to 'fill in the blanks', and I am just curious where the non-Catholic 'fill-ins' came from.

Did that make any kind of sense at all? I am so tired, and I keep losing the thread of my thoughts.

Peace be with you all.

Live4Jesus · Feb 8, 2003

Kind of what bothers me about the 'virginity' of Mary issue, which truly is neither here nor there though the bible does say Joseph 'knew' her and in bible speak that does mean as his wife, completely... but also the catholic line is that she was 'untainted' from original sin as well... and sorry... there just isn't a single tad of biblical evidence for it, only the opposite, she was quite normal, a nice girl, her heart straight with God,, but otherwise quite normal. Just like her cousin Elizabeth, who also had a child sent from God, his name was John... the fact being that they were cousins... in similar circumstance and relationship with God.... sharing a common bloodline even, which was not 'untainted' from original sin... rather quite normal in every respect.

Terri · Feb 9, 2003

Originally posted by ZooMom
The result of that is usually that Catholics come off as over-emphasizing Mary to the point of seeming worship, while non-Catholics come off as under-emphasizing Mary to the point of seeming denigration. 

 

She is no big deal to me.  If she is being denigrated by my lack of interest in her and not mentioning her--well so be it.

JesusServant · Feb 9, 2003

I don't understand why it's such a concern.  I respect Mary, but just because I don't go on and on about her doesn't mean I'm disrespectful.  Mary has nothing to do with my salvation or walk with God.  I can't wait to meet her one day but I hardly think she'll be mad at me for only following Christ and not praying to her.

linda4jesus · Feb 9, 2003

ZooMom,

1) How old do Protestants think that Mary was at the time of the Annunciation, and why?

2) How old do you think Joseph was at the time of his engagement to Mary, and why?

Since Mary and Joseph were Jewish and lived during the Talmudic time, they lived under the Jewish Law. In order to figure out how old Mary and Joseph would have been, we need to review the customs of the Jewish people during the Talmudic period.

A woman was emancipated from parental government upon reaching her majority at the age of twelve years and six months.
A man could posit a contract for matrimony at the age of eighteen.

3) Do you believe that Mary was Joseph's first wife, and why?

During the Talmudic period the Prophets discourage polygamy. In the prophetic history monogamy is presented as the ideal original state.

Monogamy was the rule among the Jews in Roman times, but there were notable exceptions. While the New Testament does not expressly prohibit, it discredits and discourages, polygamy). The tendency in Jewish social life was always towards monogamy.

With the above in mind, it would have been socially unacceptable for Joseph to have taken another wife or wives.

4) Do you believe that the brothers and sisters of Christ mentioned in the Scriptures were younger than Christ, and why?

Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. 4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

Jesus is talking about his own kin, mother, brothers and sisters. Also, since Mary, Joseph and Jesus lived during the Talmudic period, polygamy was not the social norm; so the idea or notion that Joseph had other wives goes against what the Law was during the time they were alive.

Source: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp

ZooMom · Feb 9, 2003

Originally posted by Terri
 

She is no big deal to me.  If she is being denigrated by my lack of interest in her and not mentioning her--well so be it.

Thank you, Terri. I realize that this is your position and that you are entitled to it. I did not intend for this thread to turn in this direction however, and since I am not permitted to debate here, we will just leave it at that.

I would like to leave a Scripture verse for your consideration, and ask that if it is construed as 'debate' that the Mods simply edit my post to remove it.

Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"

The Peace of Christ be with you.

ZooMom · Feb 9, 2003

Originally posted by JesusServant
I don't understand why it's such a concern.  I respect Mary, but just because I don't go on and on about her doesn't mean I'm disrespectful.  Mary has nothing to do with my salvation or walk with God.  I can't wait to meet her one day but I hardly think she'll be mad at me for only following Christ and not praying to her.

God bless you, JS. She won't be angry with you at all, because following only Christ is exactly what she wants us to do.

Luke 2:5 His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."

Peace.

sbbqb7n16 · Feb 9, 2003

Originally posted by ZooMom
4)Do you believe that the brothers and sisters of Christ mentioned in the Scriptures were younger than Christ, and why?

Here's a thought... Luke 2:44

"Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends."

Why not the mention of "among their children" ?? If you are a parent, isn't that the first place you look? However, if Jesus was the only child there at the time... you can't look among other children for him. You just look for him.

If Jesus had older brothers and sisters, where were they during all this?

ZooMom · Feb 9, 2003

Originally posted by linda4jesus
ZooMom,

Since Mary and Joseph were Jewish and lived during the Talmudic time, they lived under the Jewish Law. In order to figure out how old Mary and Joseph would have been, we need to review the customs of the Jewish people during the Talmudic period.

A woman was emancipated from parental government upon reaching her majority at the age of twelve years and six months.
A man could posit a contract for matrimony at the age of eighteen.

What about Temple virgins?

During the Talmudic period the Prophets discourage polygamy. In the prophetic history monogamy is presented as the ideal original state.

Monogamy was the rule among the Jews in Roman times, but there were notable exceptions. While the New Testament does not expressly prohibit, it discredits and discourages, polygamy). The tendency in Jewish social life was always towards monogamy.

With the above in mine, it would have been socially unacceptable for Joseph to have taken another wife or wives.

And if he was widowed?

Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. 4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

Jesus is talking about his own kin, mother, brothers and sisters. Also, since Mary, Joseph and Jesus lived during the Talmudic period, polygamy was not the social norm; so the idea or notion that Joseph had other wives goes against what the Law was during the time they were alive.

Source: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp

Again, what about the possibility that Joseph was a widower? Is there a reason that you do not consider that a plausible scenario?

Thank you so much, Linda, for both the tone and content of your answers. That is exactly what I was hoping to see. God bless you.

Peace.

ZooMom · Feb 9, 2003

Originally posted by sbbqb7n16
Here's a thought... Luke 2:44

"Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends."

Why not the mention of "among their children" ?? If you are a parent, isn't that the first place you look? However, if Jesus was the only child there at the time... you can't look among other children for him. You just look for him.

If Jesus had older brothers and sisters, where were they during all this?

An excellent thought! And one that dovetails nicely with the Catholic Tradition. Jesus *would* have been the only child there, as Joseph's children were all believed to be grown. So I will ask you, if Jesus had *younger* brothers and sisters, where were they during all this?

Great question, sbb! Thank you!

sbbqb7n16 · Feb 9, 2003

Additionally what about Matthew 2:13-14
"When the had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Jospeh in a dream. 'Get up take the childand his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him' So he got up took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt."

Where are the other children during all this? Did Joseph leave them somewhere while he took Mary and Jesus to Egypt?

sbbqb7n16 · Feb 9, 2003

Originally posted by ZooMom
An excellent thought! And one that dovetails nicely with the Catholic Tradition. Jesus *would* have been the only child there, as Joseph's children were all believed to be grown. So I will ask you, if Jesus had *younger* brothers and sisters, where were they during all this?

Were his brothers old enough to be married? If so where are their wives? That would make them older than Mary

Where were the younger children? Probably at home with their mother?? That's where I'd be!

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