A few questions for Protestants

timothyu said:

You are mistaking church for religion.

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What is most protestant theology based on? Luther was a Catholic. He followed Catholic theology except for the things he didn't agree with. Same with most of the others. They mostly followed Augustinian theology.

Buzzard3 said:

How on earth did Protestants come up with the myth that Paul preached salvation through "faith alone"?

Paul clearly preached salvation through faith and obedience (aka "works"). For example, he warns believers in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6 that their sins (aka "works) can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of heaven. So Paul agree with James ... that "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".

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RIght but some have isolated a few verses out of context and made a religion out of it.

rturner76 said:

What is most protestant theology based on

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Theology is not what Jesus taught but man's attempts to have it both ways.

rturner76 said:

What is most protestant theology based on? Luther was a Catholic. He followed Catholic theology except for the things he didn't agree with. Same with most of the others. They mostly followed Augustinian theology.

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And all borrowed from the original Christianity and made it over in their own Gentile image.

timothyu said:

Theology is not what Jesus taught but man's attempts to have it both ways.

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Theology is an in-depth study into our faith and most Protestant churches follow Augustinian theology. They just changed what they didn't like.

timothyu said:

And all borrowed from the original Christianity and made it over in their own Gentile image.

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COrrect in "their" image. Each new church builds a church in the founder's image or with their own twist on the original theology. Who gives them the authority to start a brand new church? They give themselves the authority.

rturner76 said:

Theology is an in-depth study into our faith and most Protestant churches follow Augustinian theology. They just changed what they didn't like.

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Yes, lets analyse and have it fit our agenda instead of changing ourselves to fit God's agenda.

rturner76 said:

They give themselves the authority.

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Right, self interest, the original sin.

timothyu said:

not man over man.

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But what about Hebrews 13:17?

com7fy8 said:

But what about Hebrews 13:17?

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What about it? That talks of benevolent rulers which are few and far between. But ultimately God will abolish all rule of man as our ways are the ways of man and unworthy of the Kingdom. For now we make do with what we've got which isn't much.

timothyu said:

That talks of benevolent rulers which are few and far between.

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I trust that Hebrews 13:17 is talking about Jesus Christ's approved leaders.

It is a quality, if not quantity, thing

And with Jesus we are able to tell the difference and share with His true pastors >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

So, I consider that they rule by means of good example, and we obey by following their good example . . . like to how we are told to obey Jesus by following His example > for example >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

Even governments within Christianity will fall.

timothyu said:

Yes, lets analyse and have it fit our agenda instead of changing ourselves to fit God's agenda.

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From 2 Timothy 4:3

. [3] For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: [4] And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. [5] But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry. Be sober.


I was born Catholic, but rebelled because of what I thought was hypocrisy. I actually just wanted to justify my own rebellion. I met some Protestants that told me to stop worrying about my sin and lean on the finished work of Christ, and He would take care of it. That sounded great and I thought we would be on the verge of the next great revival. If people learned about this, then the whole world would be praising Jesus.
What I found instead was even more hypocrisy than what I thought was in the Catholic Church. Everyone told me that it was impossible to follow the commandments, and if I talked about them it was legalism. I went from denomination to denomination trying to find people that wanted to search for the truth.
What I found were small churches that wanted to grow, so their goal was to make Christianity palatable and seeker friendly, some would not even hold to the teachings on which their denomination was originally founded. It was a frustrating lonely experience.
Why did I come back to the Catholic Church? I can credit some people here at CF and Erwin for originally founding CF. It was from the discussions here that I found that there is no biblical reason not to be Catholic. Jesus preaches repentance for the forgiveness of sins. He says if you love Me, keep my commandments. The proper view is infused righteousness, not imputed. You are the salt of the Earth, let your good works shine before men, and they will give glory to God. The Bible does say we will be judged according to our works.
The other thing that we need to know is that God has great glory. He does not issue us commands that He is not willing to follow Himself. Not one. If He commands us to honor our father and mother, what do you think He has done? Mary is not tossed aside like an old candy wrapper or discarded as a one night stand. She is the only creature that can claim Daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit. She is the rightful queen of heaven and earth, and that title does not detract from the glory of God, it magnifies it.
We have reached a point in history where I believe God is going to intervene. In 1917, our Lady appeared to three peasant children in Fatima, Portugal. She said that Russia needed to be consecrated to her immaculate heart by the Pope in union with all the Bishops of the world, or Russia would spread her errors throughout the world. Russia was not consecrated and the errors of Marxism have spread through out the world. The world has changed from a righteous freedom from sin to a licentious freedom to sin. The prophecy said that the consecration would occur, but it would be too late to avoid chastisement. The instructions were not followed by any Pope until now. Pope Francis will consecrate Russia to the immaculate heart of Mary in union with all the Bishops of the world
Repent and believe the Gospel. Love not your life unto death and you will be given a crown of life. It’s too late for things to go back to the way they used to be. We have become worse than sodom and Gomorrah. Even they had not slaughtered millions of their children in abortion. Repent. Now is the time

boughtwithaprice said:

The instructions were not followed by any Pope until now.

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I've read this will be the fourth time.

timothyu said:

I've read this will be the fourth time.

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there have been many attempts, but none followed specific instructions. The instructions were consecrate Russia to my Immaculate Heart in union with all the Bishops of the world.
Simple enough, but was it done exactly that way? John Paul II in 1984 came the closest, we saw Chernobyl happen in 1986 and the Soviet empire fall by 1989 along with the destruction of the Berlin Wall. People said that Sr Lucia said that consecration was acceptable to Our Lady, but the people did not repent.
Think if your mother sent you out for one dozen sugar raised donuts, and you came back with a dozen glazed. You would argue but Ma, you sent me out for a dozen sugar covered donuts and this is what they are. She would probably smile at you and say those were acceptable, but they were not what she asked for.
The Soviet empire and the specter of nuclear war fell in 1989. You would think there would be worldwide rejoicing, and praising God. That did not happen. The desecration of the marital act, that began in 1930 at Lambeth, has continued unabated. God gave them up to all their desires, as He promised in Romans 1. No one seems to recognize sin anymore. We are told we are too rigid, we need to be more loving, accepting and inclusive. We are in a very scary position. Catholic teaching has held that contraception is evil and homosexuality is disordered, but many Catholics do not believe this.
In 2002, the priest sex abuse scandal broke to the world. They called them pedophiles, but the major problem was homosexuality in the priesthood and the hierarchy. Paul VI had said way back in the 1960s that the smoke of Satan had entered the Church. Now with hundreds if not thousands of priests defrocked, and billions of dollars in settlements, the problem continues, but it is getting way more exposure thanks to lay organizations like Churchmilitant.com. Satan wants to bring down the Church and his prize is the papacy, but we have the promise that the gates of hell will not prevail. That is why, though he has done controversial things and some cringe worthy, I still pray for Francis every day
I was joyfully amazed that he announced that he would be consecrating Russia to the immaculate heart. The grapes of wrath through out the world have never been more ripe. I pray that all the Bishops will join Him this Friday on the feast of the annunciation, and Our Lady’s instructions will be followed to the letter. I do not look for a military victory or an era of peace on Earth should the consecration take place, but an era of world wide repentance and return to God. This is Satan’s last chance. It is going to get rough. Love not your life unto death, and you will be given a crown of life. Look at those in your church. Do they live as described in Romans 1?
Then run in fear, find those that can edify you with true repentance. Stop believing the lie that God does not require repentance, only mental belief and lip service to Jesus. If you are in sin, then ask God to deliver you, and He will do it. I asked Him and He heard me. I was more of what I call a Romans 1 Christian than anybody. I was guilty of sin but thought no biggie, I’ll just rely on the finished work of Christ. I did not realize the peril I was in until I asked the Lord for deliverance. I was a disgrace, but God gave me grace. The call is Repent and believe the Gospel. Through His grace and mighty power, as I eat His flesh and drink His blood, I am no longer entangled by the sins that once so easily beset me.
If one thinks that the consecration is already done, just look at the fruits. Is Mary’s immaculate heart triumphing? Or is sin now abounding worse than ever? Given the current circumstances of the World and the Church, wouldn’t you want to go out and get those sugar raised?

Buzzard3 said:

Which doctrine don't Catholics agree on?

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The Nicene Creed, priest celibacy, the papacy.

BNR32FAN said:

The Nicene Creed, priest celibacy, the papacy.

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Firstly, priestly celibacy is not a "doctine"; rather, it is law/disciple/tradition that is not required by every Catholic Rite.

Secondly, don't waste your time tryng to argue that the Eastern Orthodox churches are "Catholic".
A Catholic is who someone who recognizes the Pope (the Bishop of Rome) as the supreme leader of their Church and who is in full communion with him. A Catholic also acknowledges that Jesus made Peter the apostle the first Pope (according to Matt 16:18-19).

boughtwithaprice said:

In 2002, the priest sex abuse scandal broke to the world. They called them pedophiles, but the major problem was homosexuality in the priesthood and the hierarchy. Paul VI had said way back in the 1960s that the smoke of Satan had entered the Church ... Satan wants to bring down the Church and his prize is the papacy.

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A Catholic friend of mine has attempted to document every reported child sexual abuse case in the Catholic Church since 1950 and estimates that homosexuals were responsible for 93% of them.

Satan's use of homosexuals to damage the Catholic Church is interesting (for want of a better word) in light of Roman 1, which lists homosexuality as a prime symptom of spiritual darkness.

Buzzard3 said:

A Catholic friend of mine has attempted to document every reported child sexual abuse case in the Catholic Church since 1950 and estimates that homosexuals were responsible for 93% of them.

Satan's use of homosexuals to damage the Catholic Church is interesting (for want of a better word) in light of Roman 1, which lists homosexuality as a prime symptom of spiritual darkness.

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from my study of scripture, we start with what Jesus taught. We hear Jesus teaching that whoever looks upon a woman with lust, has already committed adultery with her in his heart and think that is an impossible teaching because men are inundated with sexual thoughts every few seconds, but we don’t ask the question begging to be asked. How then should we look at a woman?
The four chaste ways that I can think of are she is someone’s mother, maybe yours, she is the potential mother of your children, she IS the mother of your children, or she is a consecrated virgin and belongs to God.
Roman 1 tells of the cause, homosexuality is the symptom. Romans 1 says they left the natural use of the woman and committed the sin against nature. What does that mean? The marital act, aka sexual intercourse, was given to us by God for the procreation of children. Leaving the natural use is contraception. You turn a woman from a wife and mother to a blow
up doll and start to demand sex from her. This leads to much marital discord and strife
Most men think that if my wife would just pleasure me more, I would be satisfied and we could be happy, but it doesn’t work that way. The more you engage in lustful actions the greater the desire becomes. It’s like trying to put out a fire with more gasoline. The only way to control lust is self denial and self discipline as Jesus commands. If any one come after me let him first deny himself take up his cross and follow me. If you feel overwhelmed by lust then you need to cry out to God for deliverance and He will hear you as He promised. He delivered me, and I thought I was hopelessly lost. When you ask for help, God is faithful and true.
Sins that leave the natural use of the woman are as follows, Porn, masturbation, contraception, sterilization, homosexuality, bestiality, pedophilia, fetishes, and sex simulation or robots. Any church that tells you it is ok to do any of those things is a liar. The Bible tells you to flee fornication. None of those acts is a natural use because two cannot become one flesh and produce a child, except contraception, but when that does, the intent was not there and the child produced is most likely slaughtered making it a double sin.
This is common in society today, that if we preach that, we most likely hit scoffing, laughter, shunning or anger, even in church’s among Christians. That does not matter, it is the word of God, and we just have to look at the fruits of society to know it is true
God says those that do such things will not enter the kingdom of heaven. We need to repent and believe the Gospel. I really do believe we are about to see the wrath of God poured out on the earth. Repent before it is too late

Buzzard3 said:

Firstly, priestly celibacy is not a "doctine"; rather, it is law/disciple/tradition that is not required by every Catholic Rite.

Secondly, don't waste your time tryng to argue that the Eastern Orthodox churches are "Catholic".
A Catholic is who someone who recognizes the Pope (the Bishop of Rome) as the supreme leader of their Church and who is in full communion with him. A Catholic also acknowledges that Jesus made Peter the apostle the first Pope (according to Matt 16:18-19).

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Your definition of the Catholic Church is completely unsupported by scripture, tradition, or history. The church was always governed by ecumenical council not one supreme executive official. Acts 15 is the first account of this taking place where the apostles and elders met together to determine the dilemma of Gentile circumcision. Notice they didn’t just go to Peter and ask what should be done to resolve the matter, they met together to come to a consensus decision just like the church has always done in ecumenical councils. This practice continued all the way up until Rome’s excommunication. The Church of God adopted the name Catholic some time between 107AD and 170AD. We know this because Ignatius mentioned the church by name as the Church of God in his opening statements in his epistle to the Smyrnaeans written in 107AD. He also refers to the church as being “catholic” or universal in nature towards the end of the epistle. The name Church of God is mentioned in the scriptures and many other early church writings. The first early church writer to refer to the church by name as the Catholic Church was Iranaeus in his writing Adversus Haereses written in 170AD. At this time all of the apostolic churches were in communion with one another, they were all Catholic Churches. Now your claim is that “A Catholic is who someone who recognizes the Pope (the Bishop of Rome) as the supreme leader of their Church and who is in full communion with him.” So let’s test this claim. Rome took it upon themselves to alter the Nicene Creed without the approval of the ecumenical council by the addition of the Filioque was rejected by every apostolic church except Rome yet they still remained in communion. Rome later insisted that all priests and bishops must remain unmarried and celibate which was also rejected by all the other apostolic churches yet they still remained in communion with one another. Rome later insisted that leavened bread must not be used in the Eucharist which was also rejected by the other churches and they still remained in communion. Are you starting to see a pattern here? The bishop of Rome did not wield supreme executive power or authority over the other apostolic churches and yet they still remained in communion. The other churches never submitted to the bishop of Rome’s authority all the way up until the schism of 1054AD when the bishop of Rome demanded that they must submit their his authority which was again rejected by ALL of the apostolic churches and resulted in the excommunication of Rome. Before the East West Schism the church was governed by 5 head bishops who governed the churches in their jurisdiction. They were known as the Pentarchy. They were the bishops of Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople, and Jerusalem. When the bishop of Rome threatened to close every church that didn’t submit to his authority all of the bishops of the pentarchy sided against him and excommunicated him. All of the other apostolic churches of the Pentarchy adopted the name Orthodox and excommunicated Rome. The reason they chose the name Orthodox was because it means genuine or traditional. The word orthodox was typically used in ecumenical councils in reference to doctrines that were valid. It was used in contrast to doctrines that were heretical. So either a doctrine was true and of sound theology which was considered to be orthodox or it was a false doctrine which was considered to be heretical. The purpose of choosing the name Orthodox Church was to set themselves apart from the heretical Roman Catholic Church. Throughout the history of the Catholic Church none of them ever submitted to the bishop of Rome because they were not under his jurisdiction or authority. We can observe this thru the differences I mentioned above which began to take place in the 6th century with the addition of the Filioque and continued all the way up until the East West Schism. These facts are indisputable and can easily be researched. Search which churches accepted the Filioque. Search which churches adopted priest and bishop celibacy. Search which churches accepted the use of unleavened bread in the Eucharist. Search the Pentarchy. Search the East West Schism and see which churches actually sided with Rome and which churches adopted the name Orthodox. So I’m sorry but your mistaken Rome never had supreme authority over the Catholic Church they just claim that they did but that’s not what we actually see in the history of the church. In the setting of a council one member cannot excommunicate all others it takes a majority consensus in order to excommunicate a member. In the case of the East West Schism it was a unanimous decision against Rome which is why there was no ecumenical council held on the matter. They didn’t need to hold one on a topic that they were all in agreement on. So your definition of what a Catholic is, is completely unsupported. The Orthodox Churches remained Catholic despite rejecting Rome’s demands for centuries.