A few questions for mormons

[MormonFriend]

[/color]

Christians mustn't think Christ is unable to save us unless we contribute some of our own puny efforts.

If that is what you perceived as a LDS member, then you must have been sleeping in our study classes. There is only one thing that prevents Christ from saving us, and yes, He is unable to do so in this circumstance. He cannot override our own will. We must submit it to Him in order to receive the salvation that He has already provided.

It is not that He is "unable" to save us, He has already provided us with salvation. However "puny" our efforts are, we must muster up enough effort to submit our selfish and prideful will, in order to receive His salvation. He cannot do that part for us.

 

[Bugmotel]

What do you guys get from this:
John 20:24-29
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."

26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you." 27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

Does it seem to you that this story is showing

1)that not only are we to have faith in Christ--Faith simply because of his word, and not proof.
2)but that Christ will also give us proof of his life and existence.

Yes, i know that "Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed" but Christ went out of his way to prove his ressurection to Thomas, he did not have to. It seems to me to say that, yes Faith is best, but if you need proof Christ will provide.

 

[MormonFriend]

[/color]

You have it pretty screwed up. Satan wants people to think that Christ can't save anyone through faith; that people have to pay for part of the gift of God.

The problem here is that you split up two of my paragraphs, and responded as if only the second paragraph held my thought. Please be careful in this.
"I never suggested that Christians believe that we "shouldn't" do God's will. But you believe that it is not necessary to do His will (His will is that we are obedient to His commandments).

The difference between "we should" obey God's word, and "we must" obey God's word is monumental. When Satan can downgrade "we must" to "we should," then he has accomplished his disigns in blinding a person."

So, by evaluation of both paragraphs, do I have it "screwed up" by saying: "His will is that we are obedient to His commandments" ? Or am I "screwed up" by saying: "you (modern Christians) believe that it is not necessary to do His will" ? We believe that it is necessary to do His will before we can understand the doctrine of salvation. (see John 7:17) One must understand at least the basics of it to obtain it! Is that "screwed up"?

So, modern Christians believe we should obey, and LDS believe we must obey. (DO NOT equate "must obey" as meaning our obedience earns or pays our way. The obedience prepares us to receive what is already purchased and offered to us.) "Should" means it is not essential. "Must" means it is essential. When scripture says: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; .... (Mark 16:16); .... is "baptized" a "should" or a "must"? When Satan can downgrade "we must" to "we should," then he has accomplished his disigns in blinding a person."

Furthurmore, you seem to have closed and sealed my statement as if Satan could not have more than one strategy. You named one strategy as "Satan wants people to think that Christ can't save anyone through faith." The sentence structure suggests that this is not my view. Such is not the case.

There are many strategies of Satan. Let's take your statement and derive another strategy. Since Satan knows that many good Christians believe and know that Christ does save us through faith, what if he changed(downgraded) the value of "faith"? If he could do that, "...then he has (again) accomplished his disigns in blinding a person."There is too much here to ponder before a response can be reasonably constructed. Please take your time.

 

[MormonFriend]

The reason that they say the Christ lifts us out of the pit is because it is scriptural:

Psalm 40

2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings. KJV
​

Psalm 40

2 He lifted me out of the slimy pit,
out of the mud and mire;
he set my feet on a rock
and gave me a firm place to stand. NIV

​

MormonFriend, this verse deals with exactly what you have been discussing. Please don't disregard these words. It plainly says that Christ lifts us out of the pit! It doesn't say that Christ drops down a ladder.

But the verse doesn't end there. After He lifts us out of the pit, He sets our feet on the Rock. When we are in Christ, we have a firm place to stand. It is when are feet are no longer stuck in the mirey clay, but firmly planted on the Rock, that our lives are changed.

Your point is well taken. I should have done a search on "pit," before I made my statement. I was not familiar with that verse in Psalms. The verse does not deal with what I have been trying to discribe. I shall follow up on this.

As a prelude to my follow up, I would like to know if you are familiar with the LDS teaching:
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; (Pearl of Great Price | Abraham 3:25)

Do you know of any biblical parallels to this concept of being proven by God?

 

[emerald Dragon]

The mormons say they believe in the bible. and they take James 2:20 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" and base their faith on it, that they must WORK to get into heaven, but clearly overlook the verse that says "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." ephesians 2:8-9 . how do you explain that? james 2:20 JUST says that faith without works is dead. but ephesians 2:8-9 CLEARLY states that we are NOT saved by works, but by faith! how do you explain that?

Faith without works is dead. We don't have true faith unless we follow Christ's laws. We do not believe that works alone will save us. We must be obedient to His laws, yes. We also believe that we are saved only through grace alone. Without it, we would have nothing.

I was talking to a mormon and i asked him to explain what they really believe, and he told me about the three levels of heaven, how Jesus was on the second level, but Joseph smith was on the third, the highest level of heaven. HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS?! JESUS CHRIST THE ONLY PERFECT MAN TO WALK THE FACE OF THE EARTH, is being placed below a man?! A MAN WHO HAS BEEN PROVEN TO SINNED? TO BE A DRUNKARD? TO BE A WOMANIZER? HOW CAN THIS BE? that is just a bunch of ****! it utterly DISGUSTS me...i dont even know what to say anymore...

They must have misspoke. We don't know whether Joseph Smith made it to the higest degree of glory, but, as a prophet of the Lord, he probably did. He is not higher than Christ. The thing with Christ on the second level is this. In the lowest level, only the Holy Ghost can go. Only He is there with the people there. In the Second level, The Holy Ghost is also there, but Christ also is there as well. They both work together to keep the people here in the spiritual presence of Heavenly Father (like the Holy Ghost does the same in the lowest). Heavenly Father Himself resides in the higest degree, and Christ and the Holy Ghost can be here as well, meaning that all here are in the physicall presence of God. The people are only in His Spiritual presence in the other two. So Christ is in the Higest degree of heaven, but must minister in the second degree. No one is higher than Him, save God.

If the mormon church is the one true church, and the only church that will get you into heaven, then what happened to all the other people before the mormon church was developed? did they all go to hell? sounds like a real great god to me, one that let millions of people who lived in thousands of centuries go to hell......what a comforting god.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the True Church of Christ, the restored Church of Christ. Christ set it up when He cam eto earth, and all who believed in Him, before His coming, and after, shall be saved. We also believe that the missionary "program' will exist after we die, meaning that we all have an opportunity to hear the Truth, so that all have an equal opportuniy. God has promised that we will all have an equal opportunity to accept the Truth, but we can still decide wether or not to accept it or not.



God Bless,
Emerald Dragon
Emerald Dragon

 

[gort]

ED quote:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the True Church of Christ, the restored Church of Christ. Christ set it up when He cam eto earth, and all who believed in Him, before His coming, and after, shall be saved. We also believe that the missionary "program' will exist after we die, meaning that we all have an opportunity to hear the Truth, so that all have an equal opportuniy. God has promised that we will all have an equal opportunity to accept the Truth, but we can still decide wether or not to accept it or not.

Hello,

How can something that was never lost, be restored. I had opened a thread asking for the scripture that shows it was lost, yet nobody divulged. Therefore, no prophecy of the "Truth that was lost", therefore no need for restoration.

<><

 

[carolbob]

They must have misspoke. We don't know whether Joseph Smith made it to the higest degree of glory, but, as a prophet of the Lord, he probably did. He is not higher than Christ. The thing with Christ on the second level is this. In the lowest level, only the Holy Ghost can go. Only He is there with the people there. In the Second level, The Holy Ghost is also there, but Christ also is there as well. They both work together to keep the people here in the spiritual presence of Heavenly Father (like the Holy Ghost does the same in the lowest). Heavenly Father Himself resides in the higest degree, and Christ and the Holy Ghost can be here as well, meaning that all here are in the physicall presence of God. The people are only in His Spiritual presence in the other two. So Christ is in the Higest degree of heaven, but must minister in the second degree. No one is higher than Him, save God.



Emerald Dragon

And I can find this in what chapter and verse in the Bible??

 

[carolbob]

Ummmhmmm. That's okay, I couldn't find it either.

 

[MormonFriend]

Mormonfriend this color
unbound this color


unbound: Perhaps I should clarify this a little. I believe that the Holy Spirit will help open our minds to the Word of God, and possibly this will happen one step at a time, or many steps at a time.

The Holy Spirit will HELP? What other source is there to open our minds?

11

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:11)

And the steps in learning are equivelent to the obedience applied to the principles we study.

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (John 7:17)

Doing = knowing

100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts. (Psalms 119:100)

Keeping precepts = understanding

However, the Word of God was always there to begin with, in full , nothing held back.

This is one of the reasons why I disagree with the LDS holding back the goings on of the temple, a seeker of truth has the right to know what they are getting into.

Yes, the Word of God was always there, but was the Spirit to understand it there? (No!) This is why the LDS do not dwell on the "goings on of the Temple" outside of the Temple. Not only does the seeker of truth have the right to know, we have the obligation to help them understand in the right Spirit. If that Spirit is not properly sought and received, the "goings on..." will be grossly misunderstood.

I do believe that one could understand the Word of God, and be far from perfect( as far as works goes). ...
Then how does this tie in with the opinion of the Psalmist quoted above? (Psalms 119: 100)

This is why I seperate the two because being perfect in Gods eyes,means we are perfect as soon as we accept Christ. ... I agree with what you say, but we have a different understanding as to the standard of what it means to accept Christ. For me, to accept Him is to love Him, and to love Him is to keep His commandments.

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments. (John 14:15)
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. (John 15:10)

12 If you keep not my commandments, the love of the Father shall not continue with you, therefore you shall walk in darkness. (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 95:12)

....You indicate that we must try to be perfect like Christ, and this perfection shall be obtained by "one degree at a time" . I must mention that it is futile to ever achieve perfection without Christ as our mediator. ...
I think you are preaching to the choir. I know without any reservation or doubt that the perfection required of us by God is impossible without Christ. LDS hold "works" as an important issue pertaining to salvation. The works itself are powerless to save. The salvation comes when the spirit within is become humble and submissive as a little child.

2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:2 - 3)

So how does one know when this level of humility is achieved? When good works abound naturally!

8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: (2 Corinthians 9:8)

Look at it this way. We are always doing something. Even doing nothing is something because it is what we choose to do, and it has a classification called idleness. Whatever we are doing is works. The works are good, or the works are evil. Good works glorify God, and evil works glorify man or self. These works will never save us, but they do reveal the spirit or Spirit that dwells within us. The fact is, we don't know what spirit is within us until we try doing His works. When we try righteousness, we get a rude awakening.

9 ¶ The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. (Jeremiah 17:9 - 10)

The only way we can know our heart (which God already knows) is to apply ourselves to God's commandments. Again, if we do not abide in good works, then we are bound by evil works. Because of free will we are always at work with something.

In Jeremiah we learn that the Lord tries the reins. He tests us. The response we give is a dead give-away as to what spirit or Spirit we posses. Conversely, what spirit/Spirit we possess determines our source of understanding. It is only through the atonement of Jesus Christ, that the evil within us can be uprooted, and this advent comes only after the refiner's fire of testing and affliction, if it is endured.

22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
(Matthew 10:22)

Being hated of men is just one of many trials and afflictions. Enduring is a requirement of salvation.

There will NEVER be a time when we will not need Him, not until we are transfigured. Jesus sacrafice is the ONLY thing that will make us perfect in Gods eyes.

So therefore, I find it futile to speak of one trying to be "perfect" in degrees or steps, for it is an unachievable goal ,wrought in vanity.
Is it vain to believe God's word?

23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. (Mark 9:23)

God commanded me to be perfect. He said it is possible if I believe. I havn't made it yet. Do you suggest I quit trying, or endure to the end?

 

[Frankie]

And the steps in learning are equivelent to the obedience applied to the principles we study.

MormonFriend, please excuse me for jumping in your conversation. I have to disagree with your above statement. There have been many times when God has taught me something when I was doing nothing on my own part to learn it.
Frankie

 

[MormonFriend]

MormonFriend:And the steps in learning are equivelent to the obedience applied to the principles we study.

MormonFriend, please excuse me for jumping in your conversation. I have to disagree with your above statement. There have been many times when God has taught me something when I was doing nothing on my own part to learn it.
Frankie

Hi Frankie, I believe this is my first time addressing you.
It is difficult to make a general statement like I did and cover all of the bases (especially when I don't have full knowledge of all the bases). My statement was in context to the limits of our discussion.

Of course God will give us knowledge in several circumstances when we aren't expecting it. I suppose Saul is an example. To expand my view on this, I will add (and hope I don't open other issues in adding) that God will "prime the pump" with knowledge and give us what we are capable of being obedient to. We may struggle with it and falter, but through repentance we can regain our balance of obedience and live it.

The deception comes when we believe God gives us more understanding before we are true to what He has already given us..

Also, I don't know what knowledge you are referring to that God has given you, nor am I asking. In general thought to your observation, the knowledge a person receives may be from another source. That of course is a very personal thing and should not be accused in condescending comments.

If you have been true to what God has taught you, then my point is confirmed that God knew you would be true to it.

 

[Frankie]

Hi Frankie, I believe this is my first time addressing you.
It is difficult to make a general statement like I did and cover all of the bases (especially when I don't have full knowledge of all the bases). My statement was in context to the limits of our discussion.

Of course God will give us knowledge in several circumstances when we aren't expecting it. I suppose Saul is an example. To expand my view on this, I will add (and hope I don't open other issues in adding) that God will "prime the pump" with knowledge and give us what we are capable of being obedient to. We may struggle with it and falter, but through repentance we can regain our balance of obedience and live it.

The deception comes when we believe God gives us more understanding before we are true to what He has already given us..

Also, I don't know what knowledge you are referring to that God has given you, nor am I asking. In general thought to your observation, the knowledge a person receives may be from another source. That of course is a very personal thing and should not be accused in condescending comments.

If you have been true to what God has taught you, then my point is confirmed that God knew you would be true to it.

In my example, I was not true to what He had already given me but through His holy Word, He gave me understanding anyway. Unless we are talking about two completly seperate things, I think I would still have to disagree with you on this one.

 

[MormonFriend]

In my example, I was not true to what He had already given me but through His holy Word, He gave me understanding anyway. Unless we are talking about two completly seperate things, I think I would still have to disagree with you on this one.

Your example is foreign to me as compared to, for example, the Psalmists:
100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.



104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. ( Psalms 119:100 - 104)

 

[MormonFriend]

In my example, I was not true to what He had already given me but through His holy Word, He gave me understanding anyway. Unless we are talking about two completly seperate things, I think I would still have to disagree with you on this one.

Perhaps I should rephrase. You say that through God's holy Word, He gave you understanding after you were not true to what He has told you. Doesn't His holy Word state that understanding comes as a result of "departing from evil?" Correct me if I am wrong, but being untrue to what God gives us is a direct manifestation of evil! How can you obtain understanding if what Job said was true? (Job 28:28) I am sure you obtained a form of understanding, but from what source?

 

[Frankie]

Perhaps I should rephrase. You say that through God's holy Word, He gave you understanding after you were not true to what He has told you. Doesn't His holy Word state that understanding comes as a result of "departing from evil?" Correct me if I am wrong, but being untrue to what God gives us is a direct manifestation of evil! How can you obtain understanding if what Job said was true? (Job 28:28) I am sure you obtained a form of understanding, but from what source?

I departed from evil (Satan), the minute I accepted Jesus and asked Him to be Lord of my life. I still make mistakes and I still sin but the spirit of God is within me now and I no longer belong to the god of this world (devil) but now I belong to Jesus.

In the example I of myself, personally, I had learned something from the Holy Spirit by reading God's Word. However, because of my own foolish pride, even though the Holy Spirit was convicting me to pay attention and put what I had learned into my own daily life, I did not do it. As time went on, God showed me more and more from His Holy Word than I had ever known or realized before. He was blessing me right and left and teaching me and showing me things so quickly and so often that the conviction from the Holy Spirit got so strong in my life that I could no longer be self and greive the heart of God but instead, I had to live as God wanted me to. You will notice that even when I was prideful and disobediant, God continued to bless me with understanding from His word. I realize from what you have stated in your previous posts on this subject that you will not either 1. believe what I have said or 2. understand how this is possible. All I can tell you is that it is true and not only possible but happened.

Frankie

 

[MormonFriend]

I departed from evil (Satan), the minute I accepted Jesus and asked Him to be Lord of my life. I still make mistakes and I still sin but the spirit of God is within me now and I no longer belong to the god of this world (devil) but now I belong to Jesus.

In the example I of myself, personally, I had learned something from the Holy Spirit by reading God's Word. However, because of my own foolish pride, even though the Holy Spirit was convicting me to pay attention and put what I had learned into my own daily life, I did not do it. As time went on, God showed me more and more from His Holy Word than I had ever known or realized before. He was blessing me right and left and teaching me and showing me things so quickly and so often that the conviction from the Holy Spirit got so strong in my life that I could no longer be self and greive the heart of God but instead, I had to live as God wanted me to. You will notice that even when I was prideful and disobediant, God continued to bless me with understanding from His word. I realize from what you have stated in your previous posts on this subject that you will not either 1. believe what I have said or 2. understand how this is possible. All I can tell you is that it is true and not only possible but happened.

Frankie

I opt for #2. How is this possible? I am in no position to not believe you in the level of saying you are lying. I have my doubts, but I don't know everything, so I cannot make concrete conclusions.
You didn't answer this question.

Doesn't His holy Word state that understanding comes as a result of "departing from evil?"

You say that you depart from evil when you let Jesus into your life. I agree that will be the case when our hearts let go of everything else and focus on the Lord, but what is the true sign that this conversion is sure?
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9)

Do you suggest that when a person is born again that we do not commit sin when we sin?

And I find the opposite to be true in Psalms, which you did not respond to.

100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.
104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. (Psalms119:100 - 104)

 

[Frankie]

I opt for #2. How is this possible? I am in no position to not believe you in the level of saying you are lying. I have my doubts, but I don't know everything, so I cannot make concrete conclusions.
You didn't answer this question.



You say that you depart from evil when you let Jesus into your life. I agree that will be the case when our hearts let go of everything else and focus on the Lord, but what is the true sign that this conversion is sure?
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John3:9)

Do you suggest that when a person is born again that we do not commit sin when we sin?

And I find the opposite to be true in Psalms, which you did not respond to.

No, like I said in my previous posts, we all sin, even those who are in Christ. The difference is that those who are in Christ have been made acceptable in the sight of God and Jesus death covers the price for their sin.

Before Jesus died for the sins of man, man had to make burnt sacrafice for sin, Jesus had not yet come to atone for those sins. The OT is wonderful, it is a beautiful part of the Bible but it is a forshadow of the the Lord who was to come and briged the gap between man and God. The Old Testement should always be read and understood in light of the New Testement because the New Testement is the showing of God through Christ and His redemption for the sins of mankind. The laws of the OT were fullfilled through Jesus in the NT. The OT should always be read and understood in light of the New Testement.

If I have missed anything in what you were asking me, please point it out, I am reading and typing very fast as I need to get to an appointment.

Thank You,
Frankie

 

[fatboys]

No, like I said in my previous posts, we all sin, even those who are in Christ. The difference is that those who are in Christ have been made acceptable in the sight of God and Jesus death covers the price for their sin.

Before Jesus died for the sins of man, man had to make burnt sacrafice for sin, Jesus had not yet come to atone for those sins. The OT is wonderful, it is a beautiful part of the Bible but it is a forshadow of the the Lord who was to come and briged the gap between man and God. The Old Testement should always be read and understood in light of the New Testement because the New Testement is the showing of God through Christ and His redemption for the sins of mankind. The laws of the OT were fullfilled through Jesus in the NT. The OT should always be read and understood in light of the New Testement.

If I have missed anything in what you were asking me, please point it out, I am reading and typing very fast as I need to get to an appointment.

Thank You,
Frankie

FB: Do you think that the burnt offerings they made paid for sin? It was symbolic of showing faith in what was about to take place for the Messiah.