A Few MAJOR Pretrib Contradictions

[LittleLambofJesus]

It sounds like Choose Wisely is pretty close in his understanding of Luke and how it differs from the accounts in Matthew and Mark. I will post a link to some postings that address the accounts in the gospels as part of attempting to answer broader questions which eventually lead to a discussion on the abomination of desolation. It's a long read, but everything is linked to one another to make it a bit easier to follow for anyone that is interested.

The posts begin here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7533924-29/#post56959718

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[hiscosmicgoldfish]

quote=Manasseh

There are a couple of pretrib teachings that contradict themselves, maybe some pretribber can explain why your own teachings are contradictory or is it only some pretribbers that believe these contradictions and they are not part of the basic teaching / doctrine?

Contradiction 1.........Imminent return

More simply put, so many pretribbers state that Christ could return at any time but then they also teach that the church is "raptured" right before or when the man of sin is revealed which would make it a specific time in the order of events and an "any time" scenario cannot work.........so which is it, Christ could possibly return at anytime or the church must wait until the man of sin is revealed ?

from the pre-trib perspective, the man of sin must be revealed first before the rapture.

Contradiction 2............Not appointed unto God's wrath

Pretrib teaches that the great tribulation is God's wrath and yet they teach that there will be some "saved" during the tribulation.........so since they become saved during tribulation become members of the body of Christ then they too would not be appointed to God's wrath and there would logically have to be a number of "raptures" to keep them from being appointed unto God's wrath also.......so again, which is it ? ....will these so called "tribulation saints" also be "raptured" or will they have to suffer God's wrath?

Pretribbers, what say ye ?

I don't think there will be anyone saved after the rapture, except perhaps there might be a conversion in national Israel, but that is far from certain in my opinion. the bride is not appointed to wrath, but it's not the bride that remains through the wrath, but the apostate church.

 

[PreachingChristCrucified]

Why do people make an easy thing so difficult.

Jesus Christ returns on the last day to raise the dead and judge the nations.

He will take us to be with him (rapture) at that time.

The creeds affirm this.

It's that simple. Stop complicating the issue.

 

[zeke37]

and He's Coming here, forever...setting up His Kingdom here...
those that reign, reign from earth, on earth
.
we are not removed.
not even during His wrath (which is after His Coming at the last day)
we are either gathered to Him, or not....depends on how you do during the test.

 

[zeke37]

quote=Manasseh

There are a couple of pretrib teachings that contradict themselves, maybe some pretribber can explain why your own teachings are contradictory or is it only some pretribbers that believe these contradictions and they are not part of the basic teaching / doctrine?

Contradiction 1.........Imminent return

More simply put, so many pretribbers state that Christ could return at any time but then they also teach that the church is "raptured" right before or when the man of sin is revealed which would make it a specific time in the order of events and an "any time" scenario cannot work.........so which is it, Christ could possibly return at anytime or the church must wait until the man of sin is revealed ?


from the pre-trib perspective, the man of sin must be revealed first before the rapture.

then it's not imminent, and it's not PRE trib,
something HAS to happen first...the son of perdition be revealed

most of you guys/gals think that his revealing is during/at the beginning of the trib

so how is that imminent?

Contradiction 2............Not appointed unto God's wrath

Pretrib teaches that the great tribulation is God's wrath and yet they teach that there will be some "saved" during the tribulation.........so since they become saved during tribulation become members of the body of Christ then they too would not be appointed to God's wrath and there would logically have to be a number of "raptures" to keep them from being appointed unto God's wrath also.......so again, which is it ? ....will these so called "tribulation saints" also be "raptured" or will they have to suffer God's wrath?

Pretribbers, what say ye ?

some of them say that there are multiple raptures 4 or 5 or more,
some claim two
some claim only one

I don't think there will be anyone saved after the rapture, except perhaps there might be a conversion in national Israel, but that is far from certain in my opinion. the bride is not appointed to wrath, but it's not the bride that remains through the wrath, but the apostate church.

the wrath of God is still with Him as He makes His 2nd Coming. Rev19

it is not poured yet.
it does not get poured in the trib.
it gets poured on those that fail in the trib.

the 144k are sealed before the trib
so they are not converts. they are virgin Christian Israel.

 

[Manasseh_]

wow this is one of my old threads from a few years ago, who reached back and started this again.....................?

 

[PreachingChristCrucified]

wow this is one of my old threads from a few years ago, who reached back and started this again.....................?

I would say that it was LLOJ as his post is the first one dated April 2.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

quote=zeke37;

then it's not imminent, and it's not PRE trib,
something HAS to happen first...the son of perdition be revealed

most of you guys/gals think that his revealing is during/at the beginning of the trib

so how is that imminent?

If there is some doctrine of immanency with pre-trib, I don't subscribe to it, as i'm 'options open - trib'.. I cant exclude pre-trib, but it's not a statement of faith.


the wrath of God is still with Him as He makes His 2nd Coming. Rev19


it is not poured yet.
it does not get poured in the trib.
it gets poured on those that fail in the trib.

the 144k are sealed before the trib
so they are not converts. they are virgin Christian Israel.

maybe. but I read somewhere that the wrath starts at the seventh seal. I doubt there will be a conversion of Israel, as it says, they will look upon the one whom they pierced, and mourn.. they wouldn't be mourning if they were saved.
seems to me that all the stuff that's going to happen during the trib is wrath, and will be hard to survive. there seems to be logic in thinking that Christ returns for the bride, before the destruction of the earth, or before the day of the Lord, which isn't good, and isn't something that is advised to be hoped for, in the scriptures.

 

[Manasseh_]

I would say that it was LLOJ as his post is the first one dated April 2.

LoL, yeah I seen that , just wondering why and a bit surprised to see one of my old threads pop up again

 

[franky67]

The rapture can happen anytime and it is not tied to the man of sin. There could be several years between the events. This is your first misunderstanding.




Those that come to Jesus during the tribulation are not raptured. Most of them become the tribulation saints and others survive. This is your second misunderstanding.

Good responses, I also believe in the rapture happening before the anti-christ makes himself known.

God says "as many as" do not worship the image of the beast would be killed. "as many as " means all, so all who refuse to believe the rantings of the beast and the false prophet will be killed, so guess what, one has to be alive in order to be raptured.

These are the "one who have come out of the great tribulation" as in Revelation 7:14

Pretrib is truth

 

[zeke37]

Good responses, I also believe in the rapture happening before the anti-christ makes himself known.

God says "as many as" do not worship the image of the beast would be killed. "as many as " means all,

it actually says "should be"
I think it's just a threat

2Thes2 outright disagrees with your theory of pre trib,
and states that the gathering to Christ and His Coming,
occur after the son of perdition is on the scene,
whether the world knows him or only the elect do.

so all who refuse to believe the rantings of the beast and the false prophet will be killed, so guess what, one has to be alive in order to be raptured.

not till the last day, after the tribulation of those days
the rest of your understanding MUST be in error, if you think differently.
1Thes4 makes it plain that the Raising of the righteous occurs first.
they are raised back to life here,
and then we are all changed and gathered together with them.

These are the "one who have come out of the great tribulation" as in Revelation 7:14

Pretrib is truth

pre trib is far from the truth
it's the lie that leads one astray.

slow down, get back to basics

the gathering in 1Thes4 commonly called the rapture,
happens only at the last day when the righteous are raised

and that event is not going to happen pre trib...only post

 

[Choose Wisely]

the 144k are sealed before the trib

The sun moon and stars event prove this to be in error.

 

[zeke37]

the 4 winds blowing, represent the time of the trib

I don't view Rev7 as following Rev6 in the timeline.
if you do, fine, but I don't.
most don't.

anywho, proof is personal around here, not public.
your claims means as much as anyone elses
or as little.

 

[Biblewriter]

There are a couple of pretrib teachings that contradict themselves, maybe some pretribber can explain why your own teachings are contradictory or is it only some pretribbers that believe these contradictions and they are not part of the basic teaching / doctrine?

Contradiction 1.........Imminent return

More simply put, so many pretribbers state that Christ could return at any time but then they also teach that the church is "raptured" right before or when the man of sin is revealed which would make it a specific time in the order of events and an "any time" scenario cannot work.........so which is it, Christ could possibly return at anytime or the church must wait until the man of sin is revealed ?

I have not had time to address this question until now. but the short answer is that very few pre-tribbers even imagine that the rapture will be " right before or when the man of sin is revealed." In fact, the only pre-tribber I have ever read that held this view was Irenaeus, who taught it around the years 186 to 188. He did not teach an "imminent" rapture, but he did teach it as after the antichrist had been revealed, but before "the great tribulation," which he saw as the last 3-1/2 years before Christ returns in power and glory.

Contradiction 2............Not appointed unto God's wrath

Pretrib teaches that the great tribulation is God's wrath and yet they teach that there will be some "saved" during the tribulation.........so since they become saved during tribulation become members of the body of Christ then they too would not be appointed to God's wrath and there would logically have to be a number of "raptures" to keep them from being appointed unto God's wrath also.......so again, which is it ? ....will these so called "tribulation saints" also be "raptured" or will they have to suffer God's wrath?

Pretribbers, what say ye ?

There is indeed some confusion here on the part of many. But the main teachers of the pre-tribulation view do not see those who turn to the Lord during the tribulation as part of the church, but in a separate group more closely associated with those who are blessed in the earth after the Lord returns and sets up the millennium.

And as to your claims that the Bible clearly teaches otherwise, this is true if, but only if, certain assumptions (that post-tribbers make about the meanings of certain words used in the scriptures) are correct. But if the assumptions made by the pre-tribbers (about the meanings of these same words) are correct, then the opposite is true.

In regard to the basic scriptures involved, the whole question ends up being one of assumptions about what certain words mean. So no one has a right to call those who disagree on this point "evil" or to claim that they are denying plainly stated scripture.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

And as to your claims that the Bible clearly teaches otherwise, this is true if, but only if, certain assumptions (that post-tribbers make about the meanings of certain words used in the scriptures) are correct. But if the assumptions made by the pre-tribbers (about the meanings of these same words) are correct, then the opposite is true.

In regard to the basic scriptures involved, the whole question ends up being one of assumptions about what certain words mean. So no one has a right to call those who disagree on this point "evil" or to claim that they are denying plainly stated scripture.

Can you provide any examples of those words being used the way you’d like to interpret them?

 

[Choose Wisely]

=Biblewriter;56740514]

Someone here said a while back, "I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man."

 

[Manasseh_]

There is indeed some confusion here on the part of many. But the main teachers of the pre-tribulation view do not see those who turn to the Lord during the tribulation as part of the church, but in a separate group more closely associated with those who are blessed in the earth after the Lord returns and sets up the millennium.

right, but the confusion remains in the pretrib contradiction only, I'm certainly not confused on the issue.................these "tribulation saints" posed a problem to the pretrib doctrine so the only explanation they could use was that these were not part of the body of Christ.......

scripture remains clear.............they keep God's commandments and they have the TESTIMONY OF JESUS and many will continue in this faith even if it means death to them , mainly because they have faith that Christ will raise them up from the dead again to everlasting life

but yet pretribbers have to deny they belong to Christ simply on the fact of the afore mentioned contradiction

these "red flags" that keep popping up in the pretrib doctrine should be signs that there are many inconsistancies about and within this false doctrine and yet many of those that hold to this lie are satisfied with explaining away or making feeble attempts to give certain scriptures meanings other than there intended teachings..........

?

 

[Biblewriter]

right, but the confusion remains in the pretrib contradiction only, I'm certainly not confused on the issue.................these "tribulation saints" posed a problem to the pretrib doctrine so the only explanation they could use was that these were not part of the body of Christ.......

scripture remains clear.............they keep God's commandments and they have the TESTIMONY OF JESUS and many will continue in this faith even if it means death to them , mainly because they have faith that Christ will raise them up from the dead again to everlasting life

but yet pretribbers have to deny they belong to Christ simply on the fact of the afore mentioned contradiction

these "red flags" that keep popping up in the pretrib doctrine should be signs that there are many inconsistancies about and within this false doctrine and yet many of those that hold to this lie are satisfied with explaining away or making feeble attempts to give certain scriptures meanings other than there intended teachings..........

?

We most absolutely do not deny that the tribulation believers will belong to Christ. All of the Old Testament saints belong to Christ. But the Lord Himself said, "Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." (Matthew 11:11)

The fact that there was not one "born of women" that was greater that John the Baptist means that John was at least equal to any and every Old Testament believer, including even Abraham, Moses, and David. But the least of those in "the kingdom of heaven" is greater than John, and this greater than any Old Testament Saint.

This is not a matter of opinion. It was clearly stated by our Lord himself. But it clearly shows that even the least of the New Testament believers is greater that the greatest of the Old Testament believers. This clearly shows that "the church" is something different from just "those who believe."

We see this again in John's statement about the bride in John 3:29, "He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled." Here, John was clearly saying that he was "a friend of the bridegroom, rather that a part of "the bride."

So saying that these tribulation believers are not part of the church is not saying they do not belong to Christ, it is just seeing that they are in the same class as john the Baptist, or the millennial believers. This is a thoroughly concept.

 

[Manasseh_]

We most absolutely do not deny that the tribulation believers will belong to Christ. All of the Old Testament saints belong to Christ. But the Lord Himself said, "Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." (Matthew 11:11)

The fact that there was not one "born of women" that was greater that John the Baptist means that John was at least equal to any and every Old Testament believer, including even Abraham, Moses, and David. But the least of those in "the kingdom of heaven" is greater than John, and this greater than any Old Testament Saint.

This is not a matter of opinion. It was clearly stated by our Lord himself. But it clearly shows that even the least of the New Testament believers is greater that the greatest of the Old Testament believers. This clearly shows that "the church" is something different from just "those who believe."

We see this again in John's statement about the bride in John 3:29, "He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled." Here, John was clearly saying that he was "a friend of the bridegroom, rather that a part of "the bride."

So saying that these tribulation believers are not part of the church is not saying they do not belong to Christ, it is just seeing that they are in the same class as john the Baptist, or the millennial believers. This is a thoroughly concept.

this "explanation" only shows how far pretribbers will go in attempts to make their contradictory beliefs "valid"

there's nothing whatsoever in scripture that teaches such a thing
if we belong to Christ then we are also HEIRS according to the promise and become part of Abraham's seed.............christian faith lies in the simple fact that we will have a place prepared in Christ's kingdom , many by resurrection from the dead by Christ ...........by God's spirit believers are made kings and priests, rulers under Christ's authority in his kingdom

Luk_13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Gal_3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rev_5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


the few verses you gave as your "proof text" only reveal the teachings of being humble before God and his majesty, you're doing no different than what all pretribbers do ,ie, attempt to read all kinds of things into the verses used which simply are not there, nothing in those verses come even close to saying some "classes" of saints are Christ's but not part of the body (bride) and will only be "millenial believers"

nothing AT ALL in God's written word shows there are different "classes" of saints which is what the false pretrib doctrine is trying to pass off as truth with its' heretical "tribulation saints" teaching

need I remind you that these so called "tribulation saints" are the ones that keep God's commandments and have the TESTIMONY of Jesus............................because they have his testimony then they have faith in the promises that HE GAVE of resurrection and having a place prepared by Christ as part of his bride in entering into his kingdom

there are no different classes of saints.........you either believe or you don't, Christ said it simply, you're either with me or you're against me.......the pretrib doctrine is certainly against him and his teachings
​

 

[zeke37]

jame's view is pretty sad Manasseh
2nd class Christians, lol.