A few disturbing doctrines that people believe

[Hammster]

really challenge me because I did not see one thing from the bible you quoted, how have i been challenge when I have shown where the belief come from.

What is the challenge?

I quoted from Romans 5 and asked a question, which you didn't answer.

 

[standingtall]

26 After the plague had ended, the Lord said to Moses and to Eleazar son of Aaron the priest, 2 “From the whole community of Israel, record the names of all the warriors by their families. List all the men twenty years old or older who are able to go to war.”

3 So there on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho, Moses and Eleazar the priest issued these instructions to the leaders of Israel: 4 “List all the men of Israel twenty years old and older, just as the Lord commanded Moses.”

This is the record of all the descendants of Israel who came out of Egypt.

seems like God is picking an age here, also these men who were 20 would be the ones to die in the wilderness for the sins of Israel. Hmm seems like god put an age on that.

My point stands the doctrine is not pulled from a hat.

These verses that have finally been cited still do not support an age of accountability "doctrine". It's still all assumption with no solid biblical foundation.

These verses mean what they say they mean with no reading between the lines:

1) Numbers 26 - At age 20, they were old enough to go to war in the Israelite Army.
2) Numbers 14 - Those who were 20 years old or older when they began the wandering would not live to see the promised land.

Trying to say they mean anything else - no matter how well intentioned it might be - is simply not biblical.

 

[heirmiles]

It's still all speculation, though.

God did not throw out any certain "age of responsibility" anywhere in the Bible.

The 20 year old age has nothing to do with an age of responsibility. I put that verse in my post because the other poster was insisting it was 22, and I rightly assumed he was referring to that verse (and he has yet to comment otherwise if he was referring to a different verse). The passage in Numbers is speaking strictly about the starting age of those who would perish before they began their wandering in the wilderness. IOW, those who were 20 years old or older when they began the wandering would not live to see the promised land.

If there is in fact an "age of accountability", only God knows what it is. Those who insist on knowing what that age is are not only wrong, but are apparently assuming they have the mind of God.

I would agree to the speculative nature of the discussion, my use of "responsibility" in comparison to "accountability" is to distinguish them as being different concepts. By "responsibility" I mean the social obligation that the Israelites had toward one another through what today we would call "judicial practice", i.e. Do not Kill, Do not steal, etc. Those laws which had/have a social component involved their practice. In the current terms of the thread "accountability" is being used in terms of a person's direct responsibility toward God regarding the soul's state prior to sufficient knowledge and understanding in which to receive or reject the truth of the Gospel of Christ. As related in the OP, and because of the belief that creation itself points to God in such a way as to make people accountable to God regardless of whether they have heard the Gospel or not, it follows that not having heard the Gospel does not relieve a person of the guilt of their sin.

Yet it is also obvious that in Numbers the age of 20 years was the dividing line where God held the people directly responsible for not believing in His promise to go before them and lead them into the land of promise. By drawing such a precise point, and as noted, the age of being able to go to war appears to me to be not only a judicial point of social responsibility, but a recognition of when children are able to hold such responsibilities.

If however we were to demand that 20 years of age be the point when a person is held 'spiritually responsible' in other words, "accountable", to make a decision of faith, then any belief before that time would also have to be considered invalid. As you can see there are many problems with that kind reasoning, yet we are all held spiritually responsible before God and we trust in the God of promise to cleanse us of our sin through Jesus Christ's work on the cross.

As importantly, when it comes to the judgement, our only hope is in Christ Jesus. Only He has made us acceptable in God's sight. While knowing this, since we believe that baptism does not save, and neither does the church, while depending on Christ's grace and mercy toward our children, this does not bring us to the point when we can be (100%) completely assured of another's salvation. We can trust God, that His work is true within others, and see the evidence of God's work of grace in their lives, but ultimately it is God who is the author of such judgment. This does not mean that we can not be assured of our salvation, it simply means that we utterly rely on Christ for our salvation.

 

[standingtall]

As importantly, when it comes to the judgement, our only hope is in Christ Jesus. Only He has made us acceptable in God's sight. While knowing this, since we believe that baptism does not save, and neither does the church, while depending on Christ's grace and mercy toward our children, this does not bring us to the point when we can be (100%) completely assured of another's salvation. We can trust God, that His work is true within others, and see the evidence of God's work of grace in their lives, but ultimately it is God who is the author of such judgment. This does not mean that we can not be assured of our salvation, it simply means that we utterly rely on Christ for our salvation.

Excellent statement.

 

[heirmiles]

In short I'm saying that Numbers is pointing toward "social, civil" culpability.

 

[Bluelion]

Okay, back to the topic.


Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, in this way death spread to all men, because all sinned. In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to a person’s account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam’s transgression. He is a prototype of the Coming One. (Romans 5:12-14 HCSB)

Why did people die before the law was given, and were any of them under 22?

Yeah the first law was given with though shall not eat. I don't know of any death before the sin.

You must misunderstand, I am not trying to prove the doctrine to you nor do i care what you believe. Like i sated from the start . The doctrine did not come from a hat. It has Biblical roots.

 

[Bluelion]

These verses that have finally been cited still do not support an age of accountability "doctrine". It's still all assumption with no solid biblical foundation.

These verses mean what they say they mean with no reading between the lines:

1) Numbers 26 - At age 20, they were old enough to go to war in the Israelite Army.
2) Numbers 14 - Those who were 20 years old or older when they began the wandering would not live to see the promised land.

Trying to say they mean anything else - no matter how well intentioned it might be - is simply not biblical.

I am not trying to prove it, i stated where it came from.

 

[Hammster]

Yeah the first law was given with though shall not eat. I don't know of any death before the sin.

You must misunderstand, I am not trying to prove the doctrine to you nor do i care what you believe. Like i sated from the start . The doctrine did not come from a hat. It has Biblical roots.

I know. You just want to assert things and not be challenged on them. I get that.

Do you suppose there was anyone under 20 who died before the law was given?

 

[heirmiles]

Moses was the only child mentioned, under two years old, who escaped the Pharaoh's slaughter of male infants. 19 chapters before the law.

 

[heirmiles]

oops, where did I get the 2 years old part? my bad.

 

[Hammster]

Moses was the only child mentioned, under two years old, who escaped the Pharaoh's slaughter of male infants. 19 chapters before the law.

There was that flood thing, too. And the Passover.

So if death comes through sin, why did they die?

 

[heirmiles]

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, in this way death spread to all men, because all sinned. In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to a person’s account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam’s transgression. He is a prototype of the Coming One. (Romans 5:12-14 HCSB)

Why did people die before the law was given, and were any of them under 22?

Sin is transgression against God's holy nature and being. The effects of sin, death, passed on to all those under the headship of Adam (in effect every living being). We all, outside of Christ, transgress against God's holy nature.

I meant to respond to the above post, but I'm still learning to do quotes, and I think the verses answer the question.

 

[godenver1]

oops, where did I get the 2 years old part? my bad.

"Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all its environs, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the magi," (Matt. 2:16).

 

[Bluelion]

I know. You just want to assert things and not be challenged on them. I get that.

Do you suppose there was anyone under 20 who died before the law was given?

Got any more false Judgement for me?

I answered your question Oh I get i did not answer it how you like, and I also get you think i need to prove what i believe to you, but I don't, but you have yet to prove it is not biblical with any kind of biblical evidence, sorry your opinion does not make it biblical.

and your a mod, nice, wonder how that happen.

and your issue with me is?

 

[Hammster]

Got any more false Judgement for me?

I answered your question Oh I get i did not answer it how you like, and I also get you think i need to prove what i believe to you, but I don't, but you have yet to prove it is not biblical with any kind of biblical evidence, sorry your opinion does not make it biblical.

and your a mod, nice, wonder how that happen.

and your issue with me is?

I have no issues with you. I don't even know you. All I know is that I challenged what you believe and you turned pretty snarky.

 

[now faith]

Skala:
Not to teach in your forum but I was pondering the subject of those in the past who were natives
Or Buddhist or just never been preached the Gospel.

Billy Graham was misunderstood on this as well.
He said that all men at some time God would have sent to them the Gospel message and if they received
Christ even Muslims would be in Heaven.
His intent was they would no longer be serving a false God but serving Christ.

What would prevent God from sending Angels to bring the Gospel?
The Bible states we entertain them unawares.
So what would be impossible for man {to bring missions deep in jungles 500 years ago}is very possible for God.
God is just who are we to judge his mercy?
Just pondering the notion...

On the age of accountability,we must wonder about the mentally ill from birth.

 

[Bluelion]

I have no issues with you. I don't even know you. All I know is that I challenged what you believe and you turned pretty snarky.

I am sorry you precede me as rude i was not trying to be, but was frustrated because i did not indeed to debate it, but Just wanted to show he said about the doctrine was not true, I simple did not want readers thing it came from no where and no one knew the age, and i should not have to explain my self every time i post we are suppose to be on the same side here.


Even if i was rude that does not accuse a false judgement against me, like you said you don't know me, and frankly i might be a bit harsher this week. I have health issue and I have been in and out of the hospital and been in a great deal of pain for the past week. I should not have to explain that. to many assuming people are this way or that.

I never claim to be perfect, I am working on loving every one just like you.

But while i follow my teachers i found they are not always correct and found Ed Hindson preaching something just untrue, so every makes mistakes and everything a person says most be looked up in the Bible. I am not trying to teach but provide different view points to somethings.

I hope what ever was going on between us is now settled.

and to answer your question more clearly, I believe the first Law was thou shall not eat. I know you were speaking of Moses Law, but the Law is a commandment given by God No?

The law was on the hearts of men from the very start, Cain was punished for killing Able, if there is no law there is no transgression, But the Law do not murder we see was written on mans heart before Moses, because cain was punished. No Law no Punishment.

I don't believe children are held accountable, I believe babies go to heaven. No one can speak to the age of accountability for sure but God.

I do not care to debate something which can not be proved either way.

 

[SeventhValley]

Baptism dose not save it is sanctification. So age of accountability is meaningless. I think God will have mercy on infants,the young, and disabled. He told the children to come to himself. But that is God's call to make not mine.

 

[heirmiles]

Hi Bluelion, I'm sorry you're not doing well health wise. I hope and pray that you will be better soon. We are all learning as well, and I am glad that you have the courage to make the points you do because it helps us to think, and become to clearer in our thoughts concerning the Gospel of Christ, and to learn as well concerning the truths of His holy word. God bless you.

 

[Bluelion]

Hi Bluelion, I'm sorry you're not doing well health wise. I hope and pray that you will be better soon. We are all learning as well, and I am glad that you have the courage to make the points you do because it helps us to think, and become to clearer in our thoughts concerning the Gospel of Christ, and to learn as well concerning the truths of His holy word. God bless you.

thank you for the kind words and encourage and prayers. i do treasure each of those things very much because it is rare i hear them. So thank you very much.

I am not trying to teach but show my current understand in The Word. i can very much be wrong about things and I grow each day so i might change my views, but for now this is where i am at. I don't have a gift to enlighten peoples minds, but i was called to preach so I am preparing for that. I try not to question God.

God bless you, and thank you

blu