A failed Israeli society is collapsing

[JeffreyLloyd]

 

[Woodsy]

It's gotta be a little like this for Catholics, Jeffrey, eh?
You quote history back and forth, you provide substantial refutations and documentation for your own assertions, but those who want to hate Catholicism will just go right on hating Catholicism.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

It's gotta be a little like this for Catholics, Jeffrey, eh?
You quote history back and forth, you provide substantial refutations and documentation for your own assertions, but those who want to hate Catholicism will just go right on hating Catholicism.

We feel like this sometimes

but oh well, just keep on trucken' and

 

[Noddingdog]

.:Forum Rule Reminder:. Rule No. 4 - No "Offensive" Posts, Links or Images

4) You will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, racist, sexist, discriminatory, blasphemous, satanic or otherwise violative of any local or international laws, or anything that encourages drug use or relates to gambling. This includes links in your signature, profile, bookmarks as well as posted images, photos and avatars. This includes posts in Christian-only forums that promote behavior considered "sin" in the bible. Avatars, fake email addresses or usernames that are blatantly offensive will result in an automatic ban. Staff will ultimately decide if something is appropriate or not.

Please abide by the forum rules here people.

 

[Goldstein]

If the occupation is not the problem, and Jewish settlements are not the problem, then, pray tell, what is the problem? Why is there continued violence between the Israelis and Palestinians if not for those two points of contention?

 

[Woodsy]

The same thing that caused an Arab coalition to attempt to destroy Israel the day it was founded: a refusal on the part of Arabs to accept the very existence of a Jewish State.
Remember that the Arabs were murdering Jews long before Israel even existed - the modern-day state of Israel is an excuse for Arab violence, not a prime cause.

 

[mo.mentum]

The same thing that caused an Arab coalition to attempt to destroy Israel the day it was founded: a refusal on the part of Arabs to accept the very existence of a Jewish State.

Spare me this mockery of an argument.

The Zionists have been sending European Jews to Palestine at the turn of the century. Come 1948, the UN had a resolution suggesting the division of Palestine into two states, one Arab and one Israeli. The Arabs refused because they were losing too much of their land. This is quite natural.

The split was then enforced and Israel was created. Of course Arab armies were gonna try and remove Israel since it wasn't put there through international agreement. Wouldn't you?

If one day, say Indians start sending their poeple to New York in droves. Then in no time, they decide to make their own country kicking out all non-Indians under the pretext that 1000s of years ago it was their land. Wouldn't you be a bit upset? (I'm using a loose analogy to get my point across, as the Indian case is very different and deserving of its own thread)

Remember that the Arabs were murdering Jews long before Israel even existed - the modern-day state of Israel is an excuse for Arab violence, not a prime cause.

No i don't remember and nothing could be further from the truth. You obviously are just regurgitating propaganda slogans. If anything, the Arabs were very accomodating to Jewish and Christian minorities in their lands. Especially in Muslim Spain of 700->1400AD, where Jews sought sanctuary from the persecuting Christians of the time. And after that, with the Spanish Inquisition, Jews went in droves to Morocco and the Levant (Lebanon, Syria, Palestine) to join with already existing Jewish populations.

The Bible doesn't teach us to support "the Chosen Poeple" unconditionally. You help your bother do good when he does good, you help your bother avoid evil when he does evil.

 

[mo.mentum]

If the occupation is not the problem, and Jewish settlements are not the problem, then, pray tell, what is the problem? Why is there continued violence between the Israelis and Palestinians if not for those two points of contention?

<Sarcasm>Oh! It must be cause Arabs have always hated Jews! That must be it! Arabs are blood thirsty animals, they deserve to be exterminated.</Sarcasm>

I'm attempting a pre-emptive post here

 

[mo.mentum]

Another point to re-iterate. The Palestinians make a huge distinction between Jewish and Zionist. The same goes for Hizbollah and other groups.

The same goes for Arab populations across the globe. It is very rare that Jews are implied, and when they are, the person making such a statement is reprimanded.

But i dont expect anyone to know this since we get quite a one-sided view of the conflict and a washed down version of what the Arabs really want/think.

I praise God for Satellite TV.

AMEEN

 

[Woodsy]

Another point to re-iterate. The Palestinians make a huge distinction between Jewish and Zionist. The same goes for Hizbollah and other groups.

The same goes for Arab populations across the globe. It is very rare that Jews are implied, and when they are, the person making such a statement is reprimanded.

Really??!!

Arab leaders have repeatedly made clear their animosity toward Jews and Judaism. For example, on November 23, 1937, Saudi Arabia's King Ibn Saud told British Colonel H.R.P. Dickson: "Our hatred for the Jews dates from God's condemnation of them for their persecution and rejection of Isa (Jesus) and their subsequent rejection of His chosen Prophet." He added "that for a Muslim to kill a Jew, or for him to be killed by a Jew ensures him an immediate entry into Heaven and into the august presence of God Almighty."3

When Hitler introduced the Nuremberg racial laws in 1935, he received telegrams of congratulation from all corners of the Arab world.4 Later, during the war, one of his most ardent supporters was the Mufti of Jerusalem.

Jews were never permitted to live in Jordan. Civil Law No. 6, which governed the Jordanian-occupied West Bank, states explicitly: "Any man will be a Jordanian subject if he is not Jewish."5

The Arab countries see to it that even young schoolchildren are taught to hate Jews. The Syrian Minister of Education wrote in 1968: "The hatred which we indoctrinate into the minds of our children from their birth is sacred."6

From: http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf15.html#b

Note that all of these quote except the last one came from before the modern-day State of Israel existed.

 

[Achichem]

Have you ever seen a pro-Palestine rally? Do you even realise the people (not saying all) your are siding with? Thats here!

My Opa and Oma tell me stories of Germany in their day (they were on lookers not Jews) and you know what the same attitude was there, the same clams accept for then the Jews had no place of safety. That is right they were beaten because what? O yah that is right, for making settlements in countries that were apparently not for Jews. That is just it, Jews are not welcomed anywhere, they are asking for a tiny sliver of land that they can be safe in, or horror be.

Do not believe me that anti-Semitism still exists, try looking up hate crimes in America. And considering their presents in the population, it is astronomical.

Or I know, it all Jewish propaganda right?

I cannot believe some of you people, if Israel gave the land back to the Arabs where do you think the Israelis would go? In case you did not notice they are not welcome very many places. Is that because they are immoral or corrupt? Do not make me laugh; they are probably one of the most peaceful forgiving people in the world.

Look at the Palestine president, that guys has been the biggest obstacle to peace that has ever lived, like a dictator he will not give anyone else a chance to negotiate. Israel has tried under many different people.But what does Arafat do, he moves slowly and talks and talks then pulls out when they get close. Or he lets thing just explode and then finally takes action, when everyone knows it is already too late. You want to know why he does not leave. because he knows that if he did allow someone else they might actually realise that Israel being really quite fair and that peace is not so hard at all. All it takes is a little less words, and a little more action.

 

[Woodsy]

If anything, the Arabs were very accomodating to Jewish and Christian minorities in their lands. Especially in Muslim Spain of 700->1400AD, where Jews sought sanctuary from the persecuting Christians of the time. And after that, with the Spanish Inquisition, Jews went in droves to Morocco and the Levant (Lebanon, Syria, Palestine) to join with already existing Jewish populations.

Ahhh, let's look back upon those halcyon days...

At various times, Jews in Muslim lands lived in relative peace and thrived culturally and economically. The position of the Jews was never secure, however, and changes in the political or social climate would often lead to persecution, violence and death.

When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results. On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power.

Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in "an offensive manner." The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.25

Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by the Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830; and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 hundred Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.26

Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854&shy;859, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).27​

From: http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf15.html#c​

 

[Woodsy]

Have you ever seen a pro-Palestine rally?

Good question!
You can find a great video on that very subject here: Peace, Love, and Anti-Semitism

 

[Goldstein]

Have you ever seen a pro-Palestine rally? Do you even realise the people (not saying all) your are siding with? Thats here!

There are bigots and fanatics on all sides of the issue. Anti-semites make up a small but vocal minority of the pro-palestine side.

 

[mo.mentum]

Tribe,

Have you seen where you're getting your information from? http://www.us-israel.org is quite one sided don't you think??? For such an important issue you need an independant source.

I haven't found any of the claims you quoted anywhere else. Can you find any? I'm looking forward to it.

Plus. Just because the Israelites underwent tremendous trials and persection doesn't mean they can go ahead and commit it on another population, stating "self-defense".

You don't expulse poeple from their lands by force. This is the beginning stages of ethnic cleansing. Nor the Jews deserve to be unwelcome, they're often used as a scape-goat. Yet still it doesn't justify their actions, it explains it, but never justitifies it.

 

[mo.mentum]

Have you ever seen a pro-Palestine rally? Do you even realise the people (not saying all) your are siding with? Thats here!

What? People aren't allowed to chant "Down Down Israel" or "Sharon Assassin"? That's Anti-Semetic now? It's political statements.

O yah that is right, for making settlements in countries that were apparently not for Jews. That is just it, Jews are not welcomed anywhere, they are asking for a tiny sliver of land that they can be safe in, or horror be.

First thing, they were accorded a "sliver" of land that was inhabited by millions of poeple. The Zionist creed of "A People without a Land, A land wihtout a People" totally ignores this fact.

Second. If Israel had stuck to the borders of 1967 and not occupied more Arab territory, things might have been different. Such expansionism is intentional and will only lead to more problems.

Or I know, it all Jewish propaganda right?

No, Zionist propaganda.

Look at the Palestine president, that guys has been the biggest obstacle to peace that has ever lived, like a dictator he will not give anyone else a chance to negotiate. Israel has tried under many different people.But what does Arafat do, he moves slowly and talks and talks then pulls out when they get close. Or he lets thing just explode and then finally takes action, when everyone knows it is already too late. You want to know why he does not leave. because he knows that if he did allow someone else they might actually realise that Israel being really quite fair and that peace is not so hard at all. All it takes is a little less words, and a little more action.

That may be true, Arafat has always had a warrior mentality. But he's not gonna sell out on the future of his people. Try to put yourself in his shoes just once.

As for peace agreements. Every time there is a bit of quiet, Israel launches an assassination attempt or a night raid on a village, which ends up killing a dozen bystanders ("collateral damage" in military terms). This OBVIOUSLY will result in retaliation! It's as though they're asking to be suicide bombed. Or maybe someone in Israeli leadership is sabotaging peace efforts to keep the military budget going and his greed for power rolling.

FACT OF THE MATTER IS, both sides are committing terrorist attacks on each other. And both sides use whatever means are at their disposal. Tanks and fighter planes, or human bodies. You do with what you have, right?

 

[admtaylor]

If the occupation is not the problem, and Jewish settlements are not the problem, then, pray tell, what is the problem? Why is there continued violence between the Israelis and Palestinians if not for those two points of contention?

Please refer to this post for the answer:
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1021704&postcount=30

 

[Plan 9]

Tribe,

Have you seen where you're getting your information from? http://www.us-israel.org is quite one sided don't you think??? For such an important issue you need an independant source.

Mo.mentum, it's not as though you post any 'independent' sources for us to consider, so what reasons do we have to take your denials of others' seriously?

 

[mo.mentum]

I can start writing down paragraphs of my Oxford history of the middle east or searching thorugh it's 1000 pages...gimme a couple of days.

 

[Michael0701]

Another point to re-iterate. The Palestinians make a huge distinction between Jewish and Zionist. The same goes for Hizbollah and other groups.

The same goes for Arab populations across the globe. It is very rare that Jews are implied, and when they are, the person making such a statement is reprimanded.

But i dont expect anyone to know this since we get quite a one-sided view of the conflict and a washed down version of what the Arabs really want/think.

I praise God for Satellite TV.

AMEEN

May I start by telling you were I come from before I actually post my question?

-I am a former anti-semite whose heart was changed by the Lord and now loves the Jewish people.
-I am a former anti-Zionist who whole heartedly believes in the right of existence for the state of Israel.
-I am not a muslim scholar, my knowledge about the religion comes from the world wide web, so based on that I will openly admit to being ignorant about their religion.

Now, is the muslim faith a faith of tolerance? Land disputes aside, as a religion, do they believe that it is acceptable to "coexist" with non-believers?

I respectfully request that if you reply the way I feel you might, that you back it up with links that I may use to educate myself. Thank you.