A fact creationists should know.

[AV1611VET]

See what I mean? you won't get that kind of dedication unless you're born to it, AV was bred to be a creationist.

More like I was born-again by a Creationist.

His life is his religion, without his religion, he would have no life.

For in him we live, and move, and have our being...

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

 

[razzelflabben]

You can't blame AV, denial and word blindness are just two of the many traits that are required if he is to be a creationist,
he knows he's doing it, but he can live with it because his religion is everything to him, whatever it takes, he will do,
he knows that without his religion he is nothing, a nonentity, and like the rest of us, he won't even leave a stain,
nothing to show he even existed, at least his religion gives him hope.

Say what you want, if you can't even address the questions I presented, as an explanation for what your point is, you are no different than the people you claim AV is. Personally, I don't know about AV, but I do know from your posts or rather the lack thereof that you do no different than you accuse him of doing.

 

[razzelflabben]

See what I mean? you won't get that kind of dedication unless you're born to it, AV was bred to be a creationist.

His life is his religion, without his religion, he would have no life.

Without my religious beliefs, I would have been dead several times over by now, but that has absolutely nothing at all to do with creation or evolution.

 

[Drwhat]

Hi Consol,
your big fat hole in your hypothesis is that your indoctrinated with Orthodox theology, look there was no fall, a fall from what!? Man was created marred for good reason as he isn't perfected yet neither are the animals. Maybe Kenneth Copeland has got to you more than you think.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.[/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Dude there was no mythical fall man was never perfect how do you think he ate of the tree in the first place if no sin was in him or her!? What a crock of a FALSE DOCTRINE THE FALL OF MAN IS.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]So your Mackerels squeezed out there little families to be and then a big hungry fish came by and swallowed them all up, aarrh! And then a few moments later a shark swanied on by and ate the Mackerel. What a cruel world this is, if only Adam had of not transgressed the word of God, it's all his fault you know, or at least that's what dear old Ken Copeland and the rest of the God channel would like to brainwash you into thinking, but of course that's not what the scriptures say dude.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Gotta go now got sardines for tea,lol. God bless.[/FONT]

 

[AV1611VET]

Dude there was no mythical fall man was never perfect how do you think he ate of the tree in the first place if no sin was in him or her!? What a crock of a FALSE DOCTRINE THE FALL OF MAN IS.

Hey, Wesleyan, this from John Wesley's Notes ---

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

V. 12. Therefore-This refers to all the preceding discourse; from which the apostle infers what follows. He does not therefore properly make a digression, but returns to speak again of sin and of righteousness.

As by one man- Adam; who is mentioned, and not Eve, as being the representative of mankind.

Sin entered into the world-Actual sin, and its consequence, a sinful nature.

And death-With all its attendants. It entered into the world when it entered into being; for till then it did not exist.

By sin-Therefore it could not enter before sin.

Even so-Namely, by one man.

In that-So the word is used also, 2Co 5:4.

All sinned-In Adam. These words assign the reason why death came upon all men; infants themselves not excepted, in that all sinned.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Hey, Wesleyan, this from John Wesley's Notes ---

Two quick questions, AV -- Who is John Wesley, and what makes his notes so sacred?

 

[AV1611VET]

Two quick questions, AV -- Who is John Wesley, and what makes his notes so sacred?

John Wesley was co-founder of the Wesleyan subsect of Christianity, and I was quoting him to show Drwhat that even his co-founder doesn't agree with him.

 

[consol]

I am not interested in debating anything, I don't think Genesis is just a story not do I think it is a scientific account of creation, but I don't see the problem here. Can you explain it to me. There seems to be few things you are missing.
1. The command to be fruitful and multiply doesn't mean that on day 6 every creature gave birth. Kind of like, my son who is in the military just got his orders to go to Iraq, but that isn't to say he is leaving immediately.
2. How do we know if they had the same number of eggs then as they do now. For example, evolution says life evolved. No problem, but how do you go from 500,000 eggs, to one, two, three overnight. Isn't it equally possible that as time progressed the creator allowed (whether by intervention or design) to adapt to the surroundings.

I'm just interested in following your logic here, nothing more, please don't try to make this an argument for or against anything.

Edit: Oh, and wouldn't food supply also affect the number of offspring a creature has? so if food supply was lower, we might expect a lower number of eggs?

Say what you want, if you can't even address the questions I presented, as an explanation for what your point is, you are no different than the people you claim AV is. Personally, I don't know about AV, but I do know from your posts or rather the lack thereof that you do no different than you accuse him of doing.

First off, please let me apologise, I thought what I wrote was self explanatory.

God made everything and said, "go forth and multiply" now if there was no death before the fall,
what would happen if everything God had made continued to multiply without any of them dying?
firstly they would not survive without killing something and eating it, especially in the sea,
because plankton is the bottom of the food chain in the sea, and plankton are alive,
it wouldn't take long for the earth to fill up, would it, even if they only had one offspring a year.
(and why must God keep stepping in to put things right? is he not capable of getting things right first time?)

Genesis and the creation sounds exactly as men would do things, not a God,
God rested on the seventh day, since when did a God need a rest?

Of course all of this would be academic if God knew that Adam would eat the forbidden fruit,
and the fall would happen a short while after God had made everything, perhaps it was a setup? and Adam was the patsy.
(the saying should not read "God moves in mysterious ways" it should read, "devious ways")

The God of the bible sounds like a conniving killer, hell bent on getting his own way, like a big child.

The truth is, Genesis is a load of horse manure, and only a donkey would believe it.

 

[consol]

Hi Consol,
your big fat hole in your hypothesis is that your indoctrinated with Orthodox theology, look there was no fall, a fall from what!? Man was created marred for good reason as he isn't perfected yet neither are the animals. Maybe Kenneth Copeland has got to you more than you think.

1. What is Orthodox theology?
2. I agree, there was no fall, Genesis is just a story.
3. A God created nothing, we all evolved.
4. Who is Kenneth Copeland?
5. I am an Atheist, there are no Gods.

 

[razzelflabben]

First off, please let me apologise, I thought what I wrote was self explanatory.

God made everything and said, "go forth and multiply" now if there was no death before the fall,
what would happen if everything God had made continued to multiply without any of them dying?
firstly they would not survive without killing something and eating it, especially in the sea,
because plankton is the bottom of the food chain in the sea, and plankton are alive,
it wouldn't take long for the earth to fill up, would it, even if they only had one offspring a year.

there are other ways that "nature" has of controlling populations, not the least of which is food supply. In addition, there is no mention of what God intended after the earth was full. For example, after it was full, couldn't He also command them to not multiply anymore. My point here is that where I see holes in the "creation account" (that being most peoples version of creation) it isn't here. What you present is nothing more than questions about what God would have done or wouldn't have done. Of which the account you are questioning does not tell us. It doesn't deal with what would have happened if...only what did happen next.

(and why must God keep stepping in to put things right? is he not capable of getting things right first time?)

now you are getting into biblical theology of which there are a wide range of explanations of which would take us off OP. I think the most reasonable explanation would be that God intended to interact with His creation. This theme seems to be carried through the entire bible and would further lead us to speculate that the objections you are creating have no merit.

That is not to say there are no arguments with merit, only that this one seems to be a strawman at least as best as I can follow your reasoning.

Genesis and the creation sounds exactly as men would do things, not a God,
God rested on the seventh day, since when did a God need a rest?

I am not sure we should be adding apologetics to this thread, but the most reasonable answer here is that you don't understand what the word rest is referring to. A study of the text and words, would reveal that God sat down to enjoy what He had made, see the lexicon entry here http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H07673&t=kjv
In other words, it doesn't say God needed to do anything, it says, God saw that it was good and sat down to enjoy what He created. Artists do this all the time, they finish a work, then stand back and admire or critic it.

Of course all of this would be academic if God knew that Adam would eat the forbidden fruit,
and the fall would happen a short while after God had made everything, perhaps it was a setup? and Adam was the patsy.
(the saying should not read "God moves in mysterious ways" it should read, "devious ways")

wow, with this kind of venom you should be in one of the apologetics debates rather than here. This is all about the bible and God and not about creation and evolution at all. Totally misleading on your part.

None the less, this topic has been covered very completely on another thread multiple times. The long and short of it is this: few people believe that God "set Adam up" but rather that God knew what would happen. A study of the idea of predestination, or all knowing God questions this concept even further. For example, predestination generally refers to the ultimate goal of creation, that of both the physical man and the spiritual man living in harmony. Whereas most people take that further than the bible does and say that it means that God knows everything before we do. My general answer is that He might, He might not, what we know for sure is what the bible tells us and that is about the purpose of creation, not the rest of the story.

The God of the bible sounds like a conniving killer, hell bent on getting his own way, like a big child.

More about God and not about creation. Humm, can we get this thread moved so that it better reflects what you want to talk about?

We can look at two sides to everything, Hitler can be a cold blooded killer or a god who wanted the only the best for his race of people. It is only when we step back away from the situation and look at what happened that we can honestly evaluate and look at who he really was.

The same is true for God. You go at who He is based on the premise you want Him to be, either good or evil. It isn't until you step back and evaluate the situation that you can honestly evaluate who He really is. This is true for both sides.

Now if this thread was moved we could get into more details and evaluate what happened, but at this point, I fear it would only get things more confusing about the OP which seems to be a smokescreen for your anger anyway.

The truth is, Genesis is a load of horse manure, and only a donkey would believe it.

Depends, horse manure makes lots of things grow, in fact, my grandmother always called it good rich dirt.

Point is this, I don't believe that Gen. is intended to be a scientific discourse on the origins of anything, any more than you believe that, but a careful look at Gen. shows us some amazing things about life and mankind and what we believe or don't believe in. It may not be an accurate picture of origins, but that doesn't mean it is worthless.

 

[Nathan Poe]

John Wesley was co-founder of the Wesleyan subsect of Christianity, and I was quoting him to show Drwhat that even his co-founder doesn't agree with him.

Should Drwhat agree with him?

 

[Split Rock]

Are you denying the obvious fact that if organisms reproduce and never die, that the planet's capacity to support life would eventually be overcome?

No --- but God would not let that happen.

But what was his plan? Once again He would have to directly intervene in His own Creation and kill off all the sinning animals and plants?

 

[AV1611VET]

But what was his plan? Once again He would have to directly intervene in His own Creation and kill off all the sinning animals and plants?

No sin = no death = no sin.

 

[Nathan Poe]

No sin = no death = no sin.

No death + planet = no room.

God, as usual, drops the ball in the foresight department. See what happens when you take the fable literally?

 

[consol]

But what was his plan? Once again He would have to directly intervene in His own Creation and kill off all the sinning animals and plants?

It's strange how THEIR God only intervenes when THEY are in trouble,
THEY are the ones making THEIR God look stupid because THEY are in control of THEIR own imaginations,
if THEY change THEIR minds, THEIR God changes HIS.
THEIR Gods ability is limited by THEIR imaginations.

No sin = no death = no sin.

No sin = No death = No sense.

No death + planet = no room.

God, as usual, drops the ball in the foresight department. See what happens when you take the fable literally?

THEIR God only drops the ball when THEY do.
A God can not be infallible when the God is a product of a fallible brain?

 

[AV1611VET]

No death + planet = no room.

God, as usual, drops the ball in the foresight department.

Not hardly ---

Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Not hardly ---

Big words coming from someone who had already dropped the ball.

 

[gaara4158]

Not hardly ---

I can't believe this. It's like you've got a mental block or something stopping you from seeing the fallacy in your logic.

We are analyzing what God has done. What he has done has displayed a complete lack of foresight. What he says has little affect on that; actions speak louder than words. Husbands who beat their wives claim to love them, but what do you think the wives think about them? You, in effect, are like the wife of an abusive husband who believes his words more than his actions. "But he says he loves me!"

Please.

 

[consol]

Jeremiah 32:27
Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Yes, getting it right first time, it usually takes at least two tries, sometimes three.
I'm glad he's not my Lord, AV, you can keep him.

 

[exxxys]

No --- but God would not let that happen.

So, he either created death, or slowly expanded the planet until it could hold all the fish?

The first option would counteract your opinon, and the second would significantly increase the gravitational pull in such a manner that would kill them all anyway.

Or he routinely harvested the fish for a great feast in heaven.

Praise tha layrd!