A discussion on the morality of polygamy

[seebs]

If it is simply about sex, I can totally understand anyone being against it. If it is about three people who all get along trying to make something work, that is something I can't see anything wrong with from a secular viewpoint.

Yup. I can see some religious arguments for and against. Despite the fervent beliefs of many, I've seen nothing Biblical against polygamy, except for a vague argument-from-silence, and some interpretations which make no sense at all in context. The only good argument I've seen is the Catholic one, which is based on a great deal of theology, not merely on taking Biblical claims straight up. I don't personally accept the theological argument in question, but at least it's a real argument.

 

[Ben johnson]

Eventually, perhaps not after long, she gets fat. She gets whiny. She gets old. All you guys who are married know what I am talking about.

Hmmmm; how much of that do you think is YOUR FAULT? Do you help with the cleaning? Vacuuming? Dishes? When is the last time you brought her FLOWERS for no reason? Or shaved, put on a SUIT, and took her to a nice restaurant?

When is the last time you told her she was BEAUTIFUL, and/or that you LOVED her?

Do you expect her to always be a MODEL, trim and styled for you? What reason do you give her to BE that for you?

Women need VALIDATION. Do you? If a husband thinks his wife is fat, does he invite her to play RAQUETBALL or TENNIS or go HIKING with him? Does he think that maybe, just maybe, her self-esteem might influence her weight, and HE MIGHT INFLUENCE HER SELF-ESTEEM???

If you want green grass, you gotta CARE for it; feed it, weed it, keep it trim. Stomp on it enough, and it ain't green no mo'.

I don't mean to come off harsh here; just wondering how many guys think "marriage" is reason to stop DATING? It isn't. Call the wife, and ask her out. Often. And do things for her --- she's not a "waitress" and "personal valet". Doing housework is the most loving act you can do for a woman.

Marriage is the union between two souls. If you don't want the solidarity, if you want SHALLOW and MEANINGLESS, and no foundation to nurture healthy child psyches, then by all means don't marry. But if you are MATURE and want MEANING, and know how to WORK at making life GOOD, there is nothing better than marriage. But nowadays we don't wanna work at things, do we?

 

[seebs]

Hmmmm; how much of that do you think is YOUR FAULT?

Honestly, I'd been assuming the poster you quoted was joking.

Do you help with the cleaning? Vacuuming? Dishes? When is the last time you brought her FLOWERS for no reason? Or shaved, put on a SUIT, and took her to a nice restaurant?

Heh. If I put on a suit, she'd give me the "who are you and what have you done with my husband" routine.

I don't mean to come off harsh here; just wondering how many guys think "marriage" is reason to stop DATING? It isn't. Call the wife, and ask her out. Often. And do things for her --- she's not a "waitress" and "personal valet". Doing housework is the most loving act you can do for a woman.

Heh. I'm not sure I'd go quite that far, but... Yeah. A lot of guys don't appreciate the importance of carrying their share of the load.

Marriage is the union between two souls. If you don't want the solidarity, if you want SHALLOW and MEANINGLESS, and no foundation to nurture healthy child psyches, then by all means don't marry. But if you are MATURE and want MEANING, and know how to WORK at making life GOOD, there is nothing better than marriage. But nowadays we don't wanna work at things, do we?

Total agreement. (Well, except that I'm not particularly dogmatic about it being exactly two people. But on the important parts -- hard work, commitment -- we are in agreement.)

 

[Evee]

I agree with you Ben for the most part.
If husbands would treat their wife better than a piece of furniture....
My dog gets more kisses than some wives.

 

[Evee]

Back to polygamy I just don't think it is right and certainly would not make most women happy.
I don't think it is right for a woman to marry a man and have to work their butt off to support the family.
If a man can afford to be married to a number of women then he better have a lot to offer.
I think if men can do it women should be free to do the same.
My self personally I have hard enough time staying with one little lone two or three. lol

 

[jayem]

As a libertarian, I don't think I can make any ethical case against a group of adults engaging in consensual behavior where no one is harmed. But I wonder if any polygamous relationship is really possible, without some kind of coercion or emotional harm occurring. I think about any group of people living in close proximity. It seems to me, there is always a tendency for "alliances" to form--two gang up against a third, or three against one, or two against two. The alliances may shift, but it always happens to some degree. It happens in larger families with multiple siblings. It certainly happens in work situations. It requires enormous love and commitment for one man and one woman to maintain a long term successful relationship. I just don't think it's humanly possible for a group marriage to do the same thing.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

What culture accepts a woman having more than one husband? Anyone? I've never heard of polygamy being defined in any other way than a man having multiple wives.

I've heard of one. Around Nepal, IIRC. A woman got married to a family of brothers. I don't remember why they had this system or much more about it.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

It is done in Tibet. All the males in the family marry one woman, which keeps the property from being divided up.

I was pretty close.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

It seems to me that many of the historical reasons for polygamy depend on problems in the society. For example, in patriarchal societies, a woman needed a male to survive. If there were more women than males, polygamy would be necessary for every woman to have a male. However, this is the fault of the inequality of women in the society rather than any inherent need.

Also, legally recognizing polygamy would be insanely complicated. Divorce is messy with two people.

That said, I don't see anything inherently wrong with polygamy. It doesn't have to be the abusive form that we see practiced in parts of Utah. It just seems very, very messy.

 

[seebs]

There are a lot of cases where polygamy may be justified based on the quirks or needs of individuals. So... Exceptions, not the rule. But allowing occasional exceptions is a good thing.

 

[stray bullet]

Back to polygamy I just don't think it is right and certainly would not make most women happy.

It would depend on the woman and what sex and even orientation that third person was...

I don't see anything right, even from a secular viewpoint, of purposely pursuing a polygamous relationship- the only justification being then are exceptional circumstances.

I would never pursue it regardless, but I have yet to see any argument that makes all polygamy evil by any means.

 

[seebs]

I don't see anything right, even from a secular viewpoint, of purposely pursuing a polygamous relationship- the only justification being then are exceptional circumstances.

I think that's the thing. Pursuing a polygamous relationship because you "want more people" is clearly questionable. Pursuing one because you've got the hots for someone and want to legitimize it is uncool. Pursuing one because, as one of our posters (I hope jokingly!) suggested, your existing spouse is getting old... Well, it's questionable, but I'm afraid I'd have to admit it's at least marginally better than the mainstream solution of serial monogamy.

But... There are other contexts, other circumstances, and in some of them, maybe it's the right thing to do. It's worth noting that, to a certain extent, the reasons above are all bad reasons to get married even once. Getting married to legitimize sex you've decided you want to have is just plain stupid, whether or not it's formally immoral. Just deciding that you "want to be married" is not a good reason to marry someone.

Some of the things that might make for a good marriage might make for a good second simultaneous marriage. It's unusual, but... Not my place to tell people they can't be a little unusual.

 

[Eph. 3:20]

Seebs-
Great observations. The things that make for a good first marriage could be some of the very things that might make for a second marriage.

And I think you're correct....it's unusual. And that's the part that most people have difficulties with. To many unusual=immoral. I also have yet to see a strong Theological argument against polygamy. What is immoral is that which dishonors God or harms others, polygamy does neither. It appears from my study in Scripture that it was part of the human condition as justifiable as monogamy or celibacy.

Blessings,

Eph. 3:20

 

[jingwei]

The reason for polygamy becoming immoral by absolute law is the same of God for allowing us to eat what used to be unclean foods, and the absolutement of the Law. The came when these things are absolute and unfit for faith.
God allowed many things, but time came when he no longer tolerates this type of behavior.

There is also the question of faith: when you are obsessing over your desires, how faithful are you? Why insist on multiple wives? What good comes to that?

And as for morality, the bible states that a man and a women joins union in marriage to become one body. Not a man and women, or woman and men.

 

[Seeking...]

Marriage is (to me anyway) a contract between consenting adults and as long as the behavior involved isn't damaging and is mutually agreed upon - it should be okay. I have never thought of polygamy as immoral and I even thought about it for myself when I was younger and not concerned about the legalities of it. BTW, I was not raised in, nor have I ever been to Utah. Honestly I think polygamy has many advantages to it. My view of it was that it would be a much more natural way to allow for the difference of personalities and needs for many people than a traditional 2 person marriage allows for. I never thought of it as being a sexual rompfest for a man, nor a commune for producing children (I figured on 4 kids max). I generally thought of the advantages to having a 2 income family while having at least 1 parent devoted to child rearing. Also I imagine that 3-4 adults alternating the various family responsibilities might be better able to manage personal goals without shortchanging spouses or children. Some married couples w/ kids I know feel as if they are running 100 mph to do all the things they must do, without having room to breathe or time for the things they want to do. I have also seen marriages destroyed because one spouse was unable to have certain needs met by their partner and their partner felt too vulnerable to allow for those needs to be met outside of the marriage (and again, not about sex) Also - my idea of polygamy allowed for same-sex partnerships as well. My ideal marriage included 2 women and 1-2 men all pretty much bisexual (no orgies). I think polygamy can be quite healthy, but do to its current and longstanding illegality in the west and well as the stigma placed on it - my version of it does not, nor do I believe it has ever, existed...

 

[seebs]

The reason for polygamy becoming immoral by absolute law is the same of God for allowing us to eat what used to be unclean foods, and the absolutement of the Law. The came when these things are absolute and unfit for faith.
God allowed many things, but time came when he no longer tolerates this type of behavior.

Commanding something is not merely "allowing" it.

I don't really see your argument here, though.

There is also the question of faith: when you are obsessing over your desires, how faithful are you?

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

Why insist on multiple wives? What good comes to that?

We're not talking about "insisting on multiple wives". When a friend of mine and I were involved with the same woman, she wasn't "insisting on multiple husbands". She wasn't thinking "if one of these people leaves, I have to start looking around for a replacement". But... She loved two people, and didn't see any reason to choose between them.

And as for morality, the bible states that a man and a women joins union in marriage to become one body. Not a man and women, or woman and men.

Well, it may say that, but it also refers to David's multiple wives as "wives". In a way, each such relationship is a distinct marriage, joining two people... But more pragmatically, that's the default and most common case. The Bible doesn't always bother to explain the special cases, exceptions, and rare circumstances; we are assumed to be thinking creatures.

 

[stray bullet]

I think that's the thing. Pursuing a polygamous relationship because you "want more people" is clearly questionable. Pursuing one because you've got the hots for someone and want to legitimize it is uncool. Pursuing one because, as one of our posters (I hope jokingly!) suggested, your existing spouse is getting old... Well, it's questionable, but I'm afraid I'd have to admit it's at least marginally better than the mainstream solution of serial monogamy.

But... There are other contexts, other circumstances, and in some of them, maybe it's the right thing to do. It's worth noting that, to a certain extent, the reasons above are all bad reasons to get married even once. Getting married to legitimize sex you've decided you want to have is just plain stupid, whether or not it's formally immoral. Just deciding that you "want to be married" is not a good reason to marry someone.

Some of the things that might make for a good marriage might make for a good second simultaneous marriage. It's unusual, but... Not my place to tell people they can't be a little unusual.

Good points. I think the only deviation between the first and second spouse is that while purposely pursuing a person to marry is fine, purposely pursuing a second spouse is highly questionable. It is one thing to go places to find a person to date and maybe marry and another to go some place specifically in the hopes of getting a third person in the relationship...

 

[stray bullet]

I generally thought of the advantages to having a 2 income family while having at least 1 parent devoted to child rearing.

Exactly. With multiple partners, you are able to have two people pursuing their careers, while another stays home, rather than the traditional set up where one stays home and the other works, or where both work. To be honest, it seems better for a child to be raised by one parent in a three parent household, than be raised by a daycare center in a two parent household.

Also - my idea of polygamy allowed for same-sex partnerships as well. My ideal marriage included 2 women and 1-2 men all pretty much bisexual (no orgies). I think polygamy can be quite healthy, but do to its current and longstanding illegality in the west and well as the stigma placed on it - my version of it does not, nor do I believe it has ever, existed...

Any reason for being bisexual? Do you think intimacy has to exist by all members to work?

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Having given this additional thought, I have revised my position. Legal marriage should be replaced by contracts between the parties involved. If someone can work out how to deal with more than two people in a marriage, more power to them.

 

[Eph. 3:20]

God allowed many things, but time came when he no longer tolerates this type of behavior.

Can you show us where he says that he no longer tolerates this behavior? I missed those passages.

There is also the question of faith: when you are obsessing over your desires, how faithful are you?

Check Hebrews 11 to see how the faith of those polygamous men is comended and held up to all as our example.

And as for morality, the bible states that a man and a women joins union in marriage to become one body. Not a man and women, or woman and men.

Yes it does, but the word used to describe that oneness is Echad (Heb.) which is not one as in "singular" or numerically, it is one in regard to unity. It is the same "one" that is used in the text " Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD". So the word lends itself to plurality.

This is why there were never any charges brought against the OT saints...they were doing nothing wrong!!!! And when God told David "I would have given you more", who are we to say that He would not say the same now? He has given us no indication as such.