A dimension of inference

[FrankFaith]

I perceive that there are others' here whose understanding of scripture is very thorough--and they strive to ensure that Truth allows everything to fit together in support of itself. I see nothing wrong with that...except it appears that, even though their puzzle fits together in virtual completeness of understanding, they are not aware that the puzzle itself is three dimensional. The dimension they are unaware of is the dimension of inference, for lack of a better term. I noticed this the other day when someone here said something to the effect that they do not infer anything in reference to such things as happenings and parables--just specific scripture--and that inference is wrong.

At that moment, Holy Spirit reminded me of Jesus' healing ministry--and that He only did the will of the Father--only what He say the Father do. What can we safely infer through Jesus' healing ministry? Nothing?!

If we refuse any implications of the inference of Jesus' healing ministry, for example--and that He only did the will of the Father--only what He saw the Father do--we lose a dimension of...Faith...and this dimension allows the function of God's plan of physical healing to actually take place here in the physical realm. This dimension has materialized every time someone begins walking in manifested healing. *Included in this realm is the Truth about why the word "healing" is used in reference to the Atonement. It's used because healing became available to us at that moment as well. **Who came up with the label, "The Atonement", anyway? Was it man or is that actually scripture--I do not know--do you? It wouldn't surprise me if "The Atonement" is just another man-made section header inserted into scripture. I think I'll cease calling it "The Atonement" and start calling it "The Double Cure".

 

[Hadron]

Unfortunately, this is where cessationists operate, so I'd be careful with this.

Cessationists don't have specific scriptures to support their beliefs, so they infer from ones that could possibly mean something in a vague way similar to what they are arguing.

I'm not saying that you are wrong about this particular inference, by the way.

 

[JimB]

I perceive that there are others' here whose understanding of scripture is very thorough--and they strive to ensure that Truth allows everything to fit together in support of itself. I see nothing wrong with that...except it appears that, even though their puzzle fits together in virtual completeness of understanding, they are not aware that the puzzle itself is three dimensional. The dimension they are unaware of is the dimension of inference, for lack of a better term. I noticed this the other day when someone here said something to the effect that they do not infer anything in reference to such things as happenings and parables--just specific scripture--and that inference is wrong.

At that moment, Holy Spirit reminded me of Jesus' healing ministry--and that He only did the will of the Father--only what He say the Father do. What can we safely infer through Jesus' healing ministry? Nothing?!


If we refuse any implications of the inference of Jesus' healing ministry, for example--and that He only did the will of the Father--only what He saw the Father do--we lose a dimension of...Faith...and this dimension allows the function of God's plan of physical healing to actually take place here in the physical realm. This dimension has materialized every time someone begins walking in manifested healing.

*****

How quickly we compare ourselves to Jesus, as though we are clones of Him. Jesus healed all, ergo, we can too. But …

Jesus was perfect; we are not. He was unique; we are not. His mission was distinctive; ours is not. He was the only begotten of the Father; we are not. Christ is the power and wisdom of God; we are not. He bore the sin of the world; we do not. He was absolutely faithful; we are not. He is the brightness of the Father’s glory; we are not. He made Atonement for our sin; we do not. He is the captain of our salvation; we are not. He is the mediator; we are not. He was the firstborn among many brethren; we are not. He was born of a virgin; we are not. He was sacrificed for the sin of the world; we are not. He is the King; we are not. He has a Kingdom; we do not. He is the Savior; we are not. He was Messiah; we are not.

And ... He was anointed without measure above all His brethren; we are not … so He healed all who came to Him; we do not. So the association falls to pieces. We are simply not Jesus and it is presumptuous of us to claim we are “little gods” (as one faith teacher put it). Only Jesus could make the claim to be God; we cannot.

As to “inference”. It was me who said that you don’t build a doctrine on what scripture infers or else we can make a doctrine of anything we subjectively “conclude” the Bible infers (i.e., implies, assumes, suggests, presumes, supposes, concludes). You can make up any harebrained idea you can imagine and probably find a scripture that infers/implies it. I hear UFOs once visited earth and we have Ezekiel to 'prove' it (because we have the first three chapters of Ezekiel that infer extraterrestrial visits).

Using your reasoning with the phrase “Jesus healed all, therefore … _____________ - draw your own subjective conclusion and fill in the blank, UFO’ers aklso have a‘sound’ doctrine.

Doctrine, to be clear (explicit, unequivocal, unambiguous, definitive) and not misconstrued must be built on clear (explicit, unequivocal, unambiguous, definitive) biblical statements ... not cloudy suppositions.

*****

*Included in this realm is the Truth about why the word "healing" is used in reference to the Atonement. It's used because healing became available to us at that moment as well. **Who came up with the label, "The Atonement", anyway? Was it man or is that actually scripture--I do not know--do you? It wouldn't surprise me if "The Atonement" is just another man-made section header inserted into scripture. I think I'll cease calling it "The Atonement" and start calling it "The Double Cure".

BTW, the word “atone/atonement” is used some 90 times in the NKJV so I guess 'atonement' could be called a biblical concept, wouldn’t ya say?
BTW, BTW, Since ‘ATONE’ is always used in relationship to ‘SIN’; never sickness (check it out yourself), doesn't that infer, imply, assume, suggest, presume, suppose, conclude that healing is NOT in the atonement (to use your subjective rule for biblcal interpretation).

~Jim

 

[TreeOfLife]

Jesus set aside His divinity, walked the earth as a man, was filled with the Holy Spirit, and went about teaching the Kingdom of God, healing, raising the dead, and performing miracles.


Other than setting aside a divinity that I don't possess, what in the rest of that list am I told not to do?

 

[JimB]

Jesus set aside His divinity, walked the earth as a man, was filled with the Holy Spirit, and went about teaching the Kingdom of God, healing, raising the dead, and performing miracles.


Other than setting aside a divinity that I don't possess, what in the rest of that list am I told not to do?

Oh, a lot of things you can’t do from that list. One that comes to mind is that Jesus atoned (died) for the sins of the world? Suppose you can do that? (You might want to re-read the list.)

~Jim

 

[FrankFaith]

Wow.

Sorry to cut to the chase like this but what you just did was, again, completely disregard what I said and instead blast with a dozen other things by relating them in a general way to a greater subject. The result is a web of confusion masked by a large smoke screen.

Please re-read my post and do not demonize my points...which are:

1. What can we safely infer from Jesus' healing ministry--and that He only did the will of the Father--only what He say the Father do? Nothing?!

...and...

2. The LABEL/SECTION HEADING "The Atonement" and whether it is a label/section heading of the scripture following it (written by man)--or a translation out of scripture itself.

Please direct your posts to my points (the OP) as opposed to bombarding my post with a load that twists everything I'm trying to say into a web of confusion masked by a smoke screen.

...or wittingly bow out of the thread/ignore this response as you are accustomed.

We don't have to go after each others' throats like this all of the time. Are you afraid that I may be correct? You're sure acting like it, bro. Let's behave like civilized adults, please. We have no need to fear Truth--it's what we're both trying to get at, correct?

 

[KingZzub]

Oh, a lot of things you can’t do from that list. One that comes to mind is that Jesus atoned (died) for the sins of the world? Suppose you can do that? (You might want to re-read the list.)

~Jim

You might want to re-read the word when Jesus said that we would do the works that He does. That we would heal the sick, and cast out demons, that we could have what we say, that we could ask and receive.

Of course by picking the one thing unique about Jesus's ministry: the redemption, that does not exclude the other elements being reproduced in our ministry: especially when Jesus told us we would do the works He did.

 

[psalms 91]

How quickly we compare ourselves to Jesus, as though we are clones of Him. Jesus healed all, ergo, we can too. But …

Jesus was perfect; we are not. He was unique; we are not. His mission was distinctive; ours is not. He was the only begotten of the Father; we are not. Christ is the power and wisdom of God; we are not. He bore the sin of the world; we do not. He was absolutely faithful; we are not. He is the brightness of the Father’s glory; we are not. He made Atonement for our sin; we do not. He is the captain of our salvation; we are not. He is the mediator; we are not. He was the firstborn among many brethren; we are not. He was born of a virgin; we are not. He was sacrificed for the sin of the world; we are not. He is the King; we are not. He has a Kingdom; we do not. He is the Savior; we are not. He was Messiah; we are not.

And ... He was anointed without measure above all His brethren; we are not … so He healed all who came to Him; we do not. So the association falls to pieces. We are simply not Jesus and it is presumptuous of us to claim we are “little gods” (as one faith teacher put it). Only Jesus could make the claim to be God; we cannot.

As to “inference”. It was me who said that you don’t build a doctrine on what scripture infers or else we can make a doctrine of anything we subjectively “conclude” the Bible infers (i.e., implies, assumes, suggests, presumes, supposes, concludes). You can make up any harebrained idea you can imagine and probably find a scripture that infers/implies it. I hear UFOs once visited earth and we have Ezekiel to 'prove' it (because we have the first three chapters of Ezekiel that infer extraterrestrial visits).

Using your reasoning with the phrase “Jesus healed all, therefore … _____________ - draw your own subjective conclusion and fill in the blank, UFO’ers aklso have a‘sound’ doctrine.

Doctrine, to be clear (explicit, unequivocal, unambiguous, definitive) and not misconstrued must be built on clear (explicit, unequivocal, unambiguous, definitive) biblical statements ... not cloudy suppositions.

BTW, the word “atone/atonement” is used some 90 times in the NKJV so I guess 'atonement' could be called a biblical concept, wouldn’t ya say?
BTW, BTW, Since ‘ATONE’ is always used in relationship to ‘SIN’; never sickness (check it out yourself), doesn't that infer, imply, assume, suggest, presume, suppose, conclude that healing is NOT in the atonement (to use your subjective rule for biblcal interpretation).

~Jim

I hope we are like Jesus as that is what we are supposed to strive for and I hope we heal and deliver and set free as that is what we are commanded to do.

 

[psalms 91]

Jesus set aside His divinity, walked the earth as a man, was filled with the Holy Spirit, and went about teaching the Kingdom of God, healing, raising the dead, and performing miracles.


Other than setting aside a divinity that I don't possess, what in the rest of that list am I told not to do?

And the kingdom is within us whether we walk in it or not is up to us, it is not Gods fault

 

[TreeOfLife]

Oh, a lot of things you can’t do from that list. One that comes to mind is that Jesus atoned (died) for the sins of the world? Suppose you can do that? (You might want to re-read the list.)

~Jim

You misunderstood Jim. I was talking about my list. Or were you just avoiding my question?

 

[TreeOfLife]

And the kingdom is within us whether we walk in it or not is up to us, it is not Gods fault

and the kingdom of God is at hand, is in the now and is in the yet to come. That's at least four dimensions and three beyond the one you mentioned.

 

[JimB]

Wow.

Sorry to cut to the chase like this but what you just did was, again, completely disregard what I said and instead blast with a dozen other things by relating them in a general way to a greater subject. The result is a web of confusion masked by a large smoke screen.



Please re-read my post and do not demonize my points...which are:



1. What can we safely infer from Jesus' healing ministry--and that He only did the will of the Father--only what He say the Father do? Nothing?!



...and...



2. The LABEL/SECTION HEADING "The Atonement" and whether it is a label/section heading of the scripture following it (written by man)--or a translation out of scripture itself.





*****

Wow is the word, Frank.

Sigh.

This kind of character attacking (“acting like a demon”) is just the sort of stuff that makes this forum a pain in the behind. I can handle differences of opinion but I do have a hard time with bad manners or poor upbringing. Telling me I am acting like a demon may be one of the worst insults I have yet received from your side of the room (and I have had some pretty immature baby crap flung at me from over there).

That aside, if I/we frequently misunderstand you, Frank, it could be me (I will admit) or it could be your own lack good communication skills. I will work on trying to understand your posts better if you will work on trying to write them better.

Even if I did misunderstand you, I did raise some valid points related to the OP (which, incidentally and typically, were not addressed … I guess character-attacking and name-calling is way easier than dealing with issues).

*****

Please direct your posts to my points (the OP) as opposed to bombarding my post with a load that twists everything I'm trying to say into a web of confusion masked by a smoke screen.



...or wittingly bow out of the thread/ignore this response as you are accustomed.



We don't have to go after each others' throats like this all of the time. Are you afraid that I may be correct? You're sure acting like it, bro. Let's behave like civilized adults, please. We have no need to fear Truth--it's what we're both trying to get at, correct?

Me, afraid you are correct, Frank? (Don’t flatter yourself). In fact, what I am convinced of is that you are seriously incorrect (or either misguided or willfully blind) and I have shown you countless ignored times in dozens of threads why I believe it, never once ignoring, though perhaps overlooking, you or failing to use scripture to defend my position … and I have never once called you a name or attacked your character.

So, yes, I am certainly all for acting like adults but I am also for practicing what you preach.

~Jim

 

[JimB]

You might want to re-read the word when Jesus said that we would do the works that He does. That we would heal the sick, and cast out demons, that we could have what we say, that we could ask and receive.

Of course by picking the one thing unique about Jesus's ministry: the redemption, that does not exclude the other elements being reproduced in our ministry: especially when Jesus told us we would do the works He did.

Let’s say it is possible for individuals to do greater works than Jesus (and I have no reason to doubt it, although I believe the promise of greater works is a collective one, not an individual one). Then I have to ask, do you do greater works than Jesus, Z? Does your pastor? Does anyone you know? Who is the last person you saw walk on water, raise the dead, still a hurricane (and we had several opportunities this past hurricane season), or feed 5,000 people from one little lunch box?

Until John 14.12 works for you as you interpret it, Z, don’t self-righteously point your finger at me and lecture me about faith. If it ain’t working for you then you must be missing something.

I say, Show me your faith by your works, Z, not your words.

~Jim

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

For review

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

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PLAY NICE GUYS​

 

[FrankFaith]

TTT

1. What can we safely infer from Jesus' healing ministry--and that He only did the will of the Father--only what He say the Father do? Nothing?!

...and...

2. The LABEL/SECTION HEADING "The Atonement" and whether it is a label/section heading of the scripture following it (written by man)--or a translation out of scripture itself.

Please direct your posts to my points (the OP) as opposed to bombarding my post with a load that twists everything I'm trying to say into a web of confusion masked by a smoke screen.

 

[FrankFaith]

If ANYONE on the planet thinks that I called Jim a demon by saying this:

"Jim, if you do not want me to demonize you as a person, based upon your behavior, please stop acting like a...demon."


...then I apologize from the bottom of my heart.


I just have one question: Where/when did I call Jim a demon??

 

[franky67]

Jesus was perfect; we are not. He was unique; we are not. His mission was distinctive; ours is not. He was the only begotten of the Father; we are not. Christ is the power and wisdom of God; we are not. He bore the sin of the world; we do not. He was absolutely faithful; we are not. He is the brightness of the Father’s glory; we are not. He made Atonement for our sin; we do not. He is the captain of our salvation; we are not. He is the mediator; we are not. He was the firstborn among many brethren; we are not. He was born of a virgin; we are not. He was sacrificed for the sin of the world; we are not. He is the King; we are not. He has a Kingdom; we do not. He is the Savior; we are not. He was Messiah; we are not.

And ... He was anointed without measure above all His brethren; we are not … so He healed all who came to Him; we do not. So the association falls to pieces. We are simply not Jesus and it is presumptuous of us to claim we are “little gods” (as one faith teacher put it). Only Jesus could make the claim to be God; we cannot.

by jim M

Hi, Jim, The scripture that came to mind as I was reading the above,

Luke 6:40

"A pupil is not above his teacher, but everyone who has been fully trained will be like his teacher."

Jesus said those who believe will do the things He did, (not atonemant ), even feeding the 5000, I've heard of similar miracles, but just because we don't see them daily, doesn't mean they should not happen.

It had to be God's will for them to happen, and it must be possible, because Jesus said for us to do them.

franky

 

[JimB]

If ANYONE on the planet thinks that I called Jim a demon by saying this:

"Jim, if you do not want me to demonize you as a person, based upon your behavior, please stop acting like a...demon."


...then I apologize from the bottom of my heart.


I just have one question: Where/when did I call Jim a demon??

Frank, you did not call me a demon. You said I was “acting like a demon”. Small, but distinct, difference.

~Jim

 

[FrankFaith]

TTT

1. What can we safely infer from Jesus' healing ministry--and that He only did the will of the Father--only what He say the Father do? Nothing?!

...and...

2. The LABEL/SECTION HEADING "The Atonement" and whether it is a label/section heading of the scripture following it (written by man)--or a translation out of scripture itself.

Please direct your posts to my points (the OP) as opposed to bombarding my post with a load that twists everything I'm trying to say into a web of confusion masked by a smoke screen.