A different view of the Rapture.

LucasGoltz said:

Furthermore, God has shown us in the past that we may be present on earth while His wrath is poured out, but we will be protected from it.

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And where precisely did God show that in the past that we may be present on earth at that time?

Lynn73 said:

In my opinion, God won't leave the bodies of the living behind as corpses laying around. It says in 1 Thess 4 that we which are alive and remain shall be caught up. I believe that includes our bodies and that they are instantaneously changed.

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I agree with Lynn73.

Body and soul are designed as one....

They stay together.

Forgive me.....

Our bodies will be raised as well. Remember that we must die physically because of our sins and God paid for our sins on the cross.

depthdeception said:

Why not? God has allowed the Church to go through such for the last 2000 years. Why would things change?

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NEVER like this!! Because there will be hell like nobody has EVER seen. Total holocaust throughout the world, MUCH worse then Hitler times. Read the book of revelation. And remember the trial and tribulation starts with unbelievers, and the devil know's he ONLY has 7 years before he is cast into Hates for 1000 years, and he has always hated humans.

Unimagineable hell on earth!

Jig said:

You are so quick to say no. Sounds like you took that right from the movie Left Behind. You are WAY TOO sure of your belief in this with no scriptural support to back it up.

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The Rapture and the Return


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TO JIG.................

Originally Posted by: Jig You are so quick to say no. Sounds like you took that right from the movie Left Behind. You are WAY TOO sure of your belief in this with no scriptural support to back it up.





The Rapture and the Return

A comparison of the rapture (1 Corinthians 15:50-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) with the glorious appearing (Matthew 24-25) reveals at least eight significant contrasts or differences. These differences demand that the rapture occur at a significantly different time from Christ&#8217;s glorious appearing:

1. At the rapture, Christ comes in the air and returns to heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the glorious appearing, Christ comes to the earth to dwell and reign (Matthew 25:31-32).
2. At the rapture, Christ gathers His own (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). At the glo&shy;rious appearing, angels gather the elect (Matthew 24:31).
3. At the rapture, Christ comes to reward (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the glorious appearing, Christ comes to judge (Matthew 25:31-46).
4. At the rapture, resurrection is prominent (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). At the glorious appearing, resurrection is not mentioned.
5. At the rapture, believers depart the earth (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). At the glorious appearing, unbelievers are taken away from the earth (Matthew 24:37-41).
6. At the rapture, unbelievers remain on earth. At the glorious appearing, believers remain on earth (Matthew 25:34).
7. Christ&#8217;s kingdom on earth is not mentioned at the rapture. At the glorious appearing, Christ has come to set up His kingdom on earth (Matthew 25:31,34).
8. At the rapture, believers will receive glorified bodies (i Corinthians i:5 At the glorious appearing, survivors will not receive glorified bodies.

The Promise of Deliverance

In Revelation 3:10, Jesus promised, &#8220;I will keep you from [Greek, ek, &#8220;out of&#8221;] the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world.&#8221; This passage makes it clear that Christ&#8217;s intention is to keep the church out of the Tribulation period.
The Greek preposition ek admittedly has the basic idea of emergence. But this is not always so. Two notable examples are 2 Corinthians 1:10 and 1 Thessalonians 1:10. In the Corinthian passage, Paul rehearses his rescue from death by God. Paul did not emerge from death but rather was rescued from the potential danger of death.
Even more convincing is 1 Thessalonians 1:10. Here, Paul states that Jesus is rescuing believers out of the wrath to come. The idea is not emergence out of, but rather protection from entrance into divine wrath.
If Revelation 3:10 means immunity or protection within as other positions insist, then several contradictions result. First, if protection in Revelation 3:10 is limited to protection from God&#8217;s wrath only and not Satan&#8217;s, then Revelation 3:10 denies our Lord&#8217;s request in John 17:15.
Second, if Revelation 3:10 means total immunity, then of what worth is the promise in light of Revelation 6:9-11 and 7:14, where martyrs abound? The wholesale martyrdom of saints during the Tribulation demands that the promise to the Philadelphia church be interpreted as &#8220;keeping out of&#8221; the hour of testing, not &#8220;keeping within.&#8221;
The church is to be delivered from the wrath to come. The apostle Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 that we should &#8220;wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.&#8221; The context of this passage points to the rapture. The church must be removed from the earth before the Tribulation begins in order to be delivered from the wrath to come.
The church is not appointed to wrath. According to 1 Thessalonians 5:9,&#8220;God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.&#8221; Once again, the context of this passage shows it is referring to the rapture. Because the Tribulation specifically involves God&#8217;s wrath, and because Christians are not appointed to His wrath, the church must be raptured out of the way before the Tribulation begins.
If the church is raptured at the end of the Tribulation, no one will be left to populate the millennium. Just prior to the beginning of the millennium, all sinners (those who reject Jesus Christ as Savior) who survive the Tribuy;lation will be cast into hell according to Matthew 25:46. Should the rapture occur at the end of the Tribulation, all Christians would be taken from the earth as well, leaving no one on earth with a natural body to repop&shy;ulate the planet during the millennium. The &#8220;righteous&#8221; (the &#8220;sheep&#8221 who enter the millennium are the saints who survive the Tribulation&#8212;those who were unsaved at the time of the rapture but became believers during the Tribulation. Many of these saints will be martyred during this time, but those who survive the Tribulation will repopulate the earth during the millennium. For this to occur, the rapture must take place prior to the Tribulation instead of at the end.

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS


1. Since the phrase &#8220;to meet the Lord&#8221; in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 can refer to a friendly city going out to meet the visiting king and escorting him back to the city, cbes not this phrase point decidedly to a posttribulational rapture?
First, this Greek term can refer to either meeting within a city (Mark 14:13; Luke 17:12) or going out of the city to meet and return back (Matthew 25:6; Acts 28:15). So the use of this particular phrase is not at all decisive. Second, remember that at the glorious appearing, Christ is coming to a hostile people in general who will eventually fight against Him at Armageddon. The pretribulational rapture best pictures the king rescuing, by a rapture, His faithful followers who are trapped in a hostile world and who will later accompany Him when He returns to earth to conquer His enemies and set up His kingdom (Revelation 19:11-16).

2. Why does Paul write in 1 Thessalonians 5:6 for believers to be alert to &#8216;The day of the Lord&#8221; if they&#8217;re not going to face it due to being raptured before the Tribulation?
Paul exhorts believers in 1 Thessalonians 5:6 to be alert and living godly in a &#8220;day of the Lord&#8221; context just as Peter does in 2 Peter 3:14-15, where the &#8220;day of the Lord&#8221; experience is clearly at the end of the millennium (because the old heavens and earth will be destroyed and replaced with the new). In such passages are exhortations for true believers to live godly lives in the light of God&#8217;s future judgment on unbelievers.

3. Does not Matthew 24.37-42, where people are taken out of the world, teach a post&shy;tribulational rapture?
In fact, Matthew 24:37-42 teaches just the opposite. First, it teaches that Noah and his family were left alive while the whole world was taken away in death and judgment. This is exactly the sequence to be expected at Christ&#8217;s glorious appearing as taught in the parable of the wheat and tares (Matthew 13:24-43), the parable of the dragnet (Matthew 13:47-50), and the &#8220;sheep and goats&#8221; judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46). In every one of these instances, at the glorious appearing, unbelievers are taken away in judgment, and the righteous believers remain.

4. Does not a pretribulation rapture result in two second comings of Christ, whereas Scripture teaches there is only one second coming?
Not at all. Regardless of the rapture position one holds, Christ&#8217;s second coming is one event that occurs in two parts&#8212;Christ coming in the air to rapture the church and Christ coming to earth to conquer the world and set up His kingdom.

5. If pretribulationism is true, why doesn&#8217;t Revelation 4-19 mention the church in heaven?
It is true that the Greek word for church (ekklësia)is not used of the church in heaven in Revelation 4-19. However, that does not mean the church is invisible. The church appears in heaven at least twice. First, the 2.4 elders in Revelation 4-5 symbolize the church. Second, the phrase &#8220;you saints and apostles and prophets&#8221; in Revelation 18:20 clearly refers to the church in heaven. Also, Revelation 19 pictures the church (the bride of Christ) in heaven prior to her triumphal return. Which rapture scenario best accounts for the church being in heaven in these texts at this time? A pretribulation rapture.

6. Why is Revelation addressed to the church if the church will not experience the Tribulation period due to the rapture?
God frequently warned Israel in me Old Testament of impending judgment even though the generation who received the prophecy would not experience it. Both Paul (1 Thessalonians 5:6) and Peter (2 Peter 3:14-15) exhorted their readers to godly living by referring to a future judgment that their readers would not experience. John followed the same pattern in Revelation. He alerted the church to God&#8217;s future judgments so believers would properly warn the unsaved world of judgment to come.

7. Is the trumpet of Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Corinthians 15:52 the same as the trumpet of Joel 2:1; Matthew 24:31; and Revelation 11:15?
A careful study of the almost 100 uses of &#8220;trumpet&#8221; or &#8220;trumpets&#8221; in the Old Testament quickly warns the stu&shy;dent of Scripture not to equate the trumpets in any two texts without a great deal of corroborating contextual evidence. For example, trumpets are used for warning (Jeremiah 6:1), for worship and praise (2 Chronicles 20:28; Psalm 81:3; 150:3; Isaiah 27:13), for victory (1 Samuel 13:3), for recall (2 Samuel 2:28; 18:16), for rejoicing (2 Samuel 6:15), for announcements (2 Samuel 20:1; 1 Kings 1:34; 2 Kings 9:13), and for dis&shy;persal (2 Samuel 20:22), to name a few.
The trumpets in Joel and in the New Testament are used for several distinct purposes. The trumpet of Joel 2:1 is a trumpet of alarm that the day of the Lord is near (see Jeremiah 6:1). The trumpet of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Corinthians 15:52 is a trumpet that announces the approaching king (see Psalm 47:5). The trumpet of Matthew 24:31 is a trumpet call to assembly (see Exodus 19:16; Nehemiah 4:20; Joel 2:15). The trumpet of Revelation 11:15 announces victory (see 1 Samuel 13:3). Scripture offers no compelling reason to equate the rapture trumpet with any of these other trumpets. Therefore, these texts cannot be used to determine the time of the rapture.
One of the chief characteristics of the rapture is that it will be sudden, unexpected, and surprising. &#8220;No man knows the day or the hour,&#8221; so we should live so as to &#8220;be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect&#8221; (Matthew 24:44). Only a pretribulation rapture preserves an imminent (&#8220;at any moment&#8221 return of Christ. Throughout the ages, Christians have understood the rapture to be imminent. Nothing could be a better motivator to holy living than knowing that Jesus could come at any moment.

linssue55 said:

NEVER like this!! Because there will be hell like nobody has EVER seen. Total holocaust throughout the world, MUCH worse then Hitler times. Read the book of revelation. And remember the trial and tribulation starts with unbelievers, and the devil know's he ONLY has 7 years before he is cast into Hates for 1000 years, and he has always hated humans.

Unimagineable hell on earth!

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I have read Revelation many times, and it sounds strangely reminiscent of the first two centuries of Christian existence under the power of the hostile Roman empire which sought to crush this subversive and illegal sect.

All this leads me to scratch my head as to why so many people interpret it to be "foretelling" events which have not yet happened--an honest reading of Revelation would seem to reveal that the writer is allegorizing the struggles and persecutions which the Christians of the first centuries faced, all with the goal of strengthening their hope in the salvation which awaited them in Christ.

*OrthodoxyUSA unsubscribes*

Forgive me...

Jig said:

Jesus's words to the holy church:

Revelation 3:10
10'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

This is in reference to the 7 year Tribulation period.

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You assume this is in relation to the so-called "tribulation period." However, there is nothing textually that would directly support the assumption that it is the Tribulation to which 3:10 is referring, nor that the Tribulation period is actually a "historic" event in the sense that we, as modernistc interpreters, would conceive of it.

Notice the words...whole world and all who dwell on the Earth. This is not just talking about the Romans and the problems in that part of the world. This is a true global testing.

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How do you know that? Moreover, the "Roman" world would have been the "global" world to whoever wrote this peice of apocalyptic literature.

He who is with Christ fears nothing. There's no tribulation that can be unbearable to him, even the physical tortures of hell. True tribulation is the spiritual anguish of the soul who has been abandoned by God because of her many sins or providentially in order to learn humility and patience. Those who persevere such trials know what I'm talking about. They also know the spiritual Revelation that follows.

Quote from The Philokalia:

Jig said:

Jesus's words to the holy church:

Revelation 3:10
10'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

This is in reference to the 7 year Tribulation period.

Notice the words...whole world and all who dwell on the Earth. This is not just talking about the Romans and the problems in that part of the world. This is a true global testing.

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Revelation 3:10 was written specifically to the church of Philadelphia. It was not addressed to all Christians.

holdon said:

Christ said "we" the christians would have tribulation in the world. (At the beginning of that same discourse He had also pointed out that He would come again to fetch His disciples.)
In another place He also said that "then" there would be great tribulation as there never was nor ever will be.
So, He is clearly talking about a different thing.


Things will definitely change..

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Here is what Jesus actually said about the great tribulation such as has never been:

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or, `There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 "So if anyone tells you, `There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, `Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 "Immediately after the distress of those days

" `the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

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First of all, why would Jeus warn us of false Christs and great signs that threaten to deceive even the elect if the elect were not going to be around to see them? He specifically said that the days of distress will be cut short so that the elect can survive. What would they have to fear if they were going to be raptured beforehand?

Second, Jesus warned us to beware of those who spread rumors about His coming. He said that we will all know when He comes because it will be as visible as lightning in the whole sky. There will be no doubt as to what is happening. He also said that all the nations of the earth will see Him. He will come with a loud trumpet call to gather the elect from the whole world. Sounds like a pretty unmistakable event to me.

Finally, and most importantly, He says that His coming to gather the believers will be after the distress of those days.

It is pretty clear from this passage that everyone will have to go through the time of tribulation, but God will also protect His people during this time. He will guard them against deception, and He will shorten the time for their sake.

The Left Behind books have it completely wrong. What they say is not biblical.

John 17:14....I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

John 17:15....I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil

If Jesus prayed that we not be taken out of the world, who are we to argue with that?

What would the good be that when the Church is actually getting a bit more mature and able to help a dying world that we be taken out. And all those people that the Father loves be left to their own devices?

the Church is actually getting a bit more mature

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She is? I never would have guessed.

Sophia7 said:

Here is what Jesus actually said about the great tribulation such as has never been:



First of all, why would Jeus warn us of false Christs and great signs that threaten to deceive even the elect if the elect were not going to be around to see them? He specifically said that the days of distress will be cut short so that the elect can survive. What would they have to fear if they were going to be raptured beforehand?

Second, Jesus warned us to beware of those who spread rumors about His coming. He said that we will all know when He comes because it will be as visible as lightning in the whole sky.

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Where does it say that "He is warning us"?

There will be no doubt as to what is happening. He also said that all the nations of the earth will see Him. He will come with a loud trumpet call to gather the elect from the whole world. Sounds like a pretty unmistakable event to me.

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Of course: very unmistakable. We will appear with Him in that day. 2 Thess 1:10. We will be coming with Him. Col 3:4; 1 Thess 3:13; Rev. 17:14; 19:14.

Finally, and most importantly, He says that His coming to gather the believers will be after the distress of those days.

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So, it is clear then that He comes in glory immediately after the tribulation of those days. Mt. 24:29. It is also clear from the other Scripture I cited, that we the believers will come WITH Him at that moment. So, therefore it is clear that "the elect" that will be gathered by angels from the 4 corners, are NOT us. They are the Jewish remnant being gathered back into their land.

It is pretty clear from this passage that everyone will have to go through the time of tribulation, but God will also protect His people during this time.

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It is without a doubt that He will come in glory immediately after the great tribulation. And He is coming WITH the saints at that time. So, the saints were NOT in the great tribulation.

He will guard them against deception, and He will shorten the time for their sake.

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For the sake of the Jewish remnant...

The Left Behind books have it completely wrong. What they say is not biblical.

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Don't trust the "Left Behind" books. They are full of sensationalism. Trust God's Word.

The pre -trib rapture is a trick of Satan, pure and simple. Why do I say this? Well think about it, if the AC comes and all the pre-trib rapture believers are still here, and there has not been any mass dissapearance of people, then the pre-trib believer's will not think it's the AC. They will say, it can't be him, we are still here an no one has dissapeared. So then what happens? They fall for his tricks and lies, possibly thinking it's even Christ Himself coming to rapture them. Christ will only come once more, not twice...

Let's see what Paul says about the "rapture", and when we will be gathered to Jesus...

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Here Paul clearly tells the people of Thessaloniki not to be fooled by anyone that Jesus is here. He will not come, and we will not be gathered to him, until the rebellion of the AC occurs, and the AC himself is revealed. So he is clearly saying that Christians will be around when the AC appears and his rebellion occurs. There is no other way to interpret this verse.

All the verses that state the people will be caught in the air to meet Jesus is about the end of the world second coming of Jesus, not a pre-trib, pre-AC gathering to Jesus. It never once makes this claim, but is only speaking about the end of the world, and judgement day..

And whoever said that Jesus, when He returns, will go to the Mt. Olives, I would really like to know where you got that one from. According to Scripture, He will come on a cloud from the East to the West, and ALL will see Him...