A difference in values?

[The happy Objectivist]

I am taking refuge from the political forum for a second.

My ethics and morals give priority to the common good.

I just had an a ha (more like an oy-vey) moment where I realized that for some taxation is "stealing" and no matter how urgent and heartbreaking a situation is, or how many people are suffering, some people's ethics will inform their consciences that taxation (stealing) is a greater moral evil than alleviating hunger, or homelessness, for example.

Just curious as to what the ethics of posters here are.

And if any of you could help me understand this point of view.

Absolutely it's stealing no matter what the supposed reason is. If I come to you with a gun and take your property to sell it to give the money to a homeless person, would that make it OK. No, it would not. If the whole block you live on votes to take your property to sell to give the money to a homeless person does that make any difference? How about the whole neighborhood? How about the whole town or city, the state, the country, the whole world? How many people does it take before it is moral to take someone's property by force?

In the words of my favorite person, Walter E. Williams, to reach into your own pocket to help others is worthy of praise, to reach into someone else's pocket for the purpose of charity is despicable and worthy of contempt. You have every right to make the common good your purpose but you have no right to force your beliefs on me.

You think it's OK to take the rightful property of one man to give it to another. Well so does any burglar except the burglar doesn't expect you to give a moral sanction to his actions. He doesn't hide behind this pretense of the "common good". You want to help the homeless, go write a check. Sell your belongings and donate the money.

I think involuntary taxation is not about the "common good", it's about hatred of the good for being the good. By the good, I mean productive achievement. It's about hatred for man, for life, and for man's mind which is the source of all wealth. Those who call for public ownership of property are really calling for public ownership of the mind.

My ethics gives priority to the individual human being and his inalienable right to his life, his property, and his right to pursue his own happiness. Every man or woman is an end in him or herself and he or she has a right, a natural right, to live for his own sake no matter who disagrees.

And I don't think it's evil to help the poor, only if it is done at the point of a gun.

 

[Fantine]

Our nation was founded on no taxation without representation.

Americans have representation so that argument doesn't apply. The rich have much more access to legislators through fundraising dinners, lobbying, and huge donations.

It's not stealing. I am stopping now to ponder what it profits a man to have the whole world and lack a heart.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Our nation was founded on no taxation without representation.

Americans have representation so that argument doesn't apply.

It's becoming really hard to call the establishment 'representation' anymore. They do not have our best interests at heart, when even their purposely misguided 'covid relief' trillions has only 9 percent of it actually going to the people.

 

[durangodawood]

I am taking refuge from the political forum for a second.

My ethics and morals give priority to the common good.

I just had an a ha (more like an oy-vey) moment where I realized that for some taxation is "stealing" and no matter how urgent and heartbreaking a situation is, or how many people are suffering, some people's ethics will inform their consciences that taxation (stealing) is a greater moral evil than alleviating hunger, or homelessness, for example.

Just curious as to what the ethics of posters here are.

And if any of you could help me understand this point of view.

My ethics respect two (often) competing realities:
1. individual rights are real and valuable
2. our collective society and its prospects are real and valuable.

Taxation as theft is just silly. Living in a functioning society has great benefits but demands certain responsibilities.

 

[Mark Quayle]

My ethics respect two (often) competing realities:
1. individual rights are real and valuable
2. our collective society and its prospects are real and valuable.

Taxation as theft is just silly. Living in a functioning society has great benefits but demands certain responsibilities.

Exorbitant taxation, gathered and used in non-representative fashion, is theft.

 

[durangodawood]

Exorbitant taxation, gathered and used in non-representative fashion, is theft.

Just keep in mind that "representative" doesn't mean your personal favorite candidates are in power. It just means that the voters on average get to choose.

I do think we're seeing a lot of resistance to voter choice tho, as certain people are dismayed at their personal favorites failing to win.

 

[Astrid]

Absolutely it's stealing no matter what the supposed reason is. If I come to you with a gun and take your property to sell it to give the money to a homeless person, would that make it OK. No, it would not. If the whole block you live on votes to take your property to sell to give the money to a homeless person does that make any difference? How about the whole neighborhood? How about the whole town or city, the state, the country, the whole world? How many people does it take before it is moral to take someone's property by force?

In the words of my favorite person, Walter E. Williams, to reach into your own pocket to help others is worthy of praise, to reach into someone else's pocket for the purpose of charity is despicable and worthy of contempt. You have every right to make the common good your purpose but you have no right to force your beliefs on me.

You think it's OK to take the rightful property of one man to give it to another. Well so does any burglar except the burglar doesn't expect you to give a moral sanction to his actions. He doesn't hide behind this pretense of the "common good". You want to help the homeless, go write a check. Sell your belongings and donate the money.

I think involuntary taxation is not about the "common good", it's about hatred of the good for being the good. By the good, I mean productive achievement. It's about hatred for man, for life, and for man's mind which is the source of all wealth. Those who call for public ownership of property are really calling for public ownership of the mind.

My ethics gives priority to the individual human being and his inalienable right to his life, his property, and his right to pursue his own happiness. Every man or woman is an end in him or herself and he or she has a right, a natural right, to live for his own sake no matter who disagrees.

And I don't think it's evil to help the poor, only if it is done at the point of a gun.

No society will accept your presence unless you
contribute your share.
Some try to get out of it.
I will be darned if I want to pay some freeloaders share.

Freelowding is stealing.

So just have society decide together what's fair and
have a system to collect it.

Or make it voluntary and kick out anyone who tries to
freeload.

 

[com7fy8]

I've seen what welfare is like here in NZ.

If you would, briefly tell us what you mean, please.

I have been told how ones can keep children for welfare money which goes to drugs while family and neighbors feed the kids potato chips so they stay "fat" for the social inspectors. This does not, of course, represent all people getting financial assistance, but it can happen. And my escort who told me this took me past a uniformed housing security guard who looked pretty worried that I was on his turf. She said yes he was worried about what I might see.

But in case there is anything representative to all that . . . just one case, in my case . . . taxes aren't the problem, but the people at the top and the people at the bottom might be the real problem. But, without taxes, you could be the one dealing with these people at the top and the bottom. Of course, you might have ones like this in your own home, already > less taxes could mean more company for you.

it's easy to make a case that the Great Society and its various programs of welfare public housing etc. actually hurt society especially minorities (The Social Engineering increased single parent families, which lead to an endless cycle of poverty for some).

But people themselves make their decisions about if they stay with their children and if they use their money well.

May be people doing the taxing and using it for pork are not so different than ones who use welfare the wrong way. Of course, we have the ones who make good use of the assistance they get; so we might be appreciative that there are ones who are being helped. I know someone who gets help, and she helps and gives caring attention to various people, using tax funded help in an all-loving way.

Plus, of course, I have heard what happens when someone wins the lottery: according to statistics, many big lottery winners are in debt in only a small number of years. Not to mention, there are so many others in credit card debt; and these are not politicians or welfare recipients.

These are ones in the middle, often enough, not politicians and welfare getters.

So, taxes, I consider . . . are not the problem

But I'm thinking what it could be like to have the dirtbag type politicians and the welfare exploiting addicts all just loose with no money source . . . no legal source . . . along with ones a number of us already have to deal with in our homes and churches. And no police. You would be holding a gun in one hand . . . perhaps . . . while trying to do whatever, or carrying a can of bear mace. And add . . . n-o gun regulations, to the delight of certain people > not just wrong regulations, but none? Taxes pay for developing gun regs, right?

I have heard how in one Central American place the local gangs manage neighborhoods. But there are military people to keep a lid on that, it seems. Plus, they might respect certain American missionaries, since they know special ops Americans might clandestinely show up, paid for by taxes.

Now, subtract the taxes . . . and . . .

Evolution at its purest comes next, with creatures of the same kind at times eating one another. This is why I thank and salute police officers. Tax money might not be protection money, but thank you money. I have observed how protection can work . . . maybe . . . how, among other things, the racketeers supervise everything, including making the local donut shop double-load its dumpster so half the dumping fees go to the racket. And a shelter can have counselors threatened or bribed to keep addicts so their social security payments can be collected.

But the counselors and addicts go along with that. So, it's not the taxes or policies, really, which are the problem. But I am my problem, more than anyone else or anything else is, I keep finding, in my case. Only God can take care of this.

 

[Bradskii]

If you would, briefly tell us what you mean, please.

I have been told how ones can keep children for welfare money which goes to drugs while family and neighbors feed the kids potato chips so they stay "fat" for the social inspectors. This does not, of course, represent all people getting financial assistance, but it can happen. And my escort who told me this took me past a uniformed housing security guard who looked pretty worried that I was on his turf. She said yes he was worried about what I might see.

But in case there is anything representative to all that . . . just one case, in my case . . . taxes aren't the problem, but the people at the top and the people at the bottom might be the real problem. But, without taxes, you could be the one dealing with these people at the top and the bottom. Of course, you might have ones like this in your own home, already > less taxes could mean more company for you.

But people themselves make their decisions about if they stay with their children and if they use their money well.

May be people doing the taxing and using it for pork are not so different than ones who use welfare the wrong way. Of course, we have the ones who make good use of the assistance they get; so we might be appreciative that there are ones who are being helped. I know someone who gets help, and she helps and gives caring attention to various people, using tax funded help in an all-loving way.

Plus, of course, I have heard what happens when someone wins the lottery . . . back in debt, usually, according to statistics, in not very much time. Meanwhile, others commonly are in credit card debt.

These are ones in the middle, often enough, not politicians and welfare getters.

So, taxes, I consider . . . are not the problem

But I'm thinking what it could be like to have the dirtbag type politicians and the welfare exploiting addicts all just loose with no money source . . . no legal source . . . along with ones a number of us already have to deal with in our homes and churches. And no police. You would be holding a gun in one hand . . . perhaps . . . while trying to do whatever, are carrying a can of bear mace. And add . . . n-o gun regulations, to the delight of certain people. Not just wrong regulations, but none?

I have heard how in one Central American place the local gangs manage neighborhoods. But there are military people to keep a lid on that, it seems. Plus, they might respect certain American missionaries, since they know special ops. Americans might clandestinely show up, paid for taxes.

Now, subtract the taxes . . . and . . .

Evolution at its purest comes next, with creatures of the same kind at times eating one another. This is why I thank and salute police officers. Tax money might not be protection money, but thank you money. I have observed how protection can work . . . maybe . . . how, among other things, the racketeers supervise everything, including making the local donut shop double-load its dumpster so half the dumping fees go to the racket. And a shelter can have counselors threatened or bribed to keep addicts so their social security payments can be collected.

But the counselors and addicts go along with that. So, it's not the taxes or policies, really, which are the problem. But I am my problem, more than anyone else or anything else is, I keep finding, in my case. Only God can take care of this.

Wow. That's not even a word salad...

 

[Astrid]

If you would, briefly tell us what you mean, please.

I have been told how ones can keep children for welfare money which goes to drugs while family and neighbors feed the kids potato chips so they stay "fat" for the social inspectors. This does not, of course, represent all people getting financial assistance, but it can happen. And my escort who told me this took me past a uniformed housing security guard who looked pretty worried that I was on his turf. She said yes he was worried about what I might see.

But in case there is anything representative to all that . . . just one case, in my case . . . taxes aren't the problem, but the people at the top and the people at the bottom might be the real problem. But, without taxes, you could be the one dealing with these people at the top and the bottom. Of course, you might have ones like this in your own home, already > less taxes could mean more company for you.

But people themselves make their decisions about if they stay with their children and if they use their money well.

May be people doing the taxing and using it for pork are not so different than ones who use welfare the wrong way. Of course, we have the ones who make good use of the assistance they get; so we might be appreciative that there are ones who are being helped. I know someone who gets help, and she helps and gives caring attention to various people, using tax funded help in an all-loving way.

Plus, of course, I have heard what happens when someone wins the lottery: according to statistics, many big lottery winners are in debt in only a small number of years. Not to mention, there are so many others in credit card debt; and these are not politicians or welfare recipients.

These are ones in the middle, often enough, not politicians and welfare getters.

So, taxes, I consider . . . are not the problem

But I'm thinking what it could be like to have the dirtbag type politicians and the welfare exploiting addicts all just loose with no money source . . . no legal source . . . along with ones a number of us already have to deal with in our homes and churches. And no police. You would be holding a gun in one hand . . . perhaps . . . while trying to do whatever, or carrying a can of bear mace. And add . . . n-o gun regulations, to the delight of certain people > not just wrong regulations, but none? Taxes pay for developing gun regs, right?

I have heard how in one Central American place the local gangs manage neighborhoods. But there are military people to keep a lid on that, it seems. Plus, they might respect certain American missionaries, since they know special ops Americans might clandestinely show up, paid for by taxes.

Now, subtract the taxes . . . and . . .

Evolution at its purest comes next, with creatures of the same kind at times eating one another. This is why I thank and salute police officers. Tax money might not be protection money, but thank you money. I have observed how protection can work . . . maybe . . . how, among other things, the racketeers supervise everything, including making the local donut shop double-load its dumpster so half the dumping fees go to the racket. And a shelter can have counselors threatened or bribed to keep addicts so their social security payments can be collected.

But the counselors and addicts go along with that. So, it's not the taxes or policies, really, which are the problem. But I am my problem, more than anyone else or anything else is, I keep finding, in my case. Only God can take care of this.

Briefly tell us what you mean plz.

Is it "snafu" so give up and let God sort it out?

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

I am taking refuge from the political forum for a second.

My ethics and morals give priority to the common good.

I just had an a ha (more like an oy-vey) moment where I realized that for some taxation is "stealing" and no matter how urgent and heartbreaking a situation is, or how many people are suffering, some people's ethics will inform their consciences that taxation (stealing) is a greater moral evil than alleviating hunger, or homelessness, for example.

Just curious as to what the ethics of posters here are.

And if any of you could help me understand this point of view.

I start with the Golden Rule "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

This involves a high degree of placing myself in someone else's shoes and speculating as to how they might "feel".
I have to understand their worldview, motives, experiences.
I then need to try my best to understand what is best for them (arrogant to presume I know).

 

[Astrid]

I start with the Golden Rule "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

This involves a high degree of placing myself in someone else's shoes and speculating as to how they might "feel".
I have to understand their worldview, motives, experiences.
I then need to try my best to understand what is best for them (arrogant to presume I know).

Probably the best start.
It's a very widespread concept across many cultures.

It certainly is deeply seated in Asian cultures.

Of course, just how far the reach of "others" extends
varies a great deal.

Conservstives in the US for example, tend to draw the line
closer to home than do liberals who widen it to the whole
world in such matters as immigration.
Then a lot closer to home if the golden rule extended to
bulleting numbers of the newcomers in their own quarters.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I am taking refuge from the political forum for a second.

My ethics and morals give priority to the common good.

I just had an a ha (more like an oy-vey) moment where I realized that for some taxation is "stealing" and no matter how urgent and heartbreaking a situation is, or how many people are suffering, some people's ethics will inform their consciences that taxation (stealing) is a greater moral evil than alleviating hunger, or homelessness, for example.

Just curious as to what the ethics of posters here are.

And if any of you could help me understand this point of view.

I don't consider taxation stealing I consider it taxation. Taxation is the means by which government appropriates money to be able to conduct its business. It is morally neutral from my point of view. What I find morally questionable is the the idea that it is not only my personal responsibility and the personal responsibility of those that also believe as I do, to feed the hungry or assist the homeless that are willing to be assisted or any other charitable endeavor , but that it is reasonable and morally upright to force people that do not agree with us or our moral compass to do so against their will. I do not think it is a matter in which government must do these things even if the people paying for it do not approve of them, so using coercive methods to force uncharitable people to fund my charitable desires seems to me to be authoritarian and unjust on my part. Rather those of us that do agree on this need to be the ones funding it. I suspect that if we did, we would be doing a much more efficient job of it than the government as our main goal would not be to actually help those in need and not to retain political power or enrich our associates with cushy government administration jobs .We might get those that oppose government programs because they tend to enrich bureaucrats more than help the people they are supposedly aimed at to join us even though they might consider taxation to be stealing.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Probably the best start.
It's a very widespread concept across many cultures.

It certainly is deeply seated in Asian cultures.

Of course, just how far the reach of "others" extends
varies a great deal.

Conservstives in the US for example, tend to draw the line
closer to home than do liberals who widen it to the whole
world in such matters as immigration.
Then a lot closer to home if the golden rule extended to
bulleting numbers of the newcomers in their own quarters.

Maybe next bit is - tell the truth.

not living up to the golden rule is bad enough - but lying about it too - to God. Thats even worse.

people seem tempted to justify their bad behaviour and make it somehow acceptable to God.??

Don't justify it - just tell God you're doing it, it's wrong and you don't intend to stop or know how to stop - ask God for help?

Driving my car is an example. I know it's wrong - it's polluting the earth, that pollution does a lot of harm to God creation (including other people). I don't even bother justifying it - it's wrong, I know it's wrong - I do intend to stop in the future, but not now, I don't even know how to stop. Ask God for help.

 

[Astrid]

Maybe next bit is - tell the truth.

not living up to the golden rule is bad enough - but lying about it too - to God. Thats even worse.

people seem tempted to justify their bad behaviour and make it somehow acceptable to God.??

Don't justify it - just tell God you're doing it, it's wrong and you don't intend to stop or know how to stop - ask God for help?

Driving my car is an example. I know it's wrong - it's polluting the earth, that pollution does a lot of harm to God creation (including other people). I don't even bother justifying it - it's wrong, I know it's wrong - I do intend to stop in the future, but not now, I don't even know how to stop. Ask God for help.

I of course do not do the God thing, which gives me all the
responsibility for my actions and failures.

Honesty is one of those matters of character, and of the greatest
importance as you sat.

We're reminded of-

To ride, shoot straight, and speak the truth
This was the ancient Law of Youth
Old times are gone, old ways are done
But the Law still holds, my little son.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If you would, briefly tell us what you mean, please.

I have been told how ones can keep children for welfare money which goes to drugs while family and neighbors feed the kids potato chips so they stay "fat" for the social inspectors. This does not, of course, represent all people getting financial assistance, but it can happen. And my escort who told me this took me past a uniformed housing security guard who looked pretty worried that I was on his turf. She said yes he was worried about what I might see.

But in case there is anything representative to all that . . . just one case, in my case . . . taxes aren't the problem, but the people at the top and the people at the bottom might be the real problem. But, without taxes, you could be the one dealing with these people at the top and the bottom. Of course, you might have ones like this in your own home, already > less taxes could mean more company for you.

But people themselves make their decisions about if they stay with their children and if they use their money well.

May be people doing the taxing and using it for pork are not so different than ones who use welfare the wrong way. Of course, we have the ones who make good use of the assistance they get; so we might be appreciative that there are ones who are being helped. I know someone who gets help, and she helps and gives caring attention to various people, using tax funded help in an all-loving way.

Plus, of course, I have heard what happens when someone wins the lottery: according to statistics, many big lottery winners are in debt in only a small number of years. Not to mention, there are so many others in credit card debt; and these are not politicians or welfare recipients.

These are ones in the middle, often enough, not politicians and welfare getters.

So, taxes, I consider . . . are not the problem

But I'm thinking what it could be like to have the dirtbag type politicians and the welfare exploiting addicts all just loose with no money source . . . no legal source . . . along with ones a number of us already have to deal with in our homes and churches. And no police. You would be holding a gun in one hand . . . perhaps . . . while trying to do whatever, or carrying a can of bear mace. And add . . . n-o gun regulations, to the delight of certain people > not just wrong regulations, but none? Taxes pay for developing gun regs, right?

I have heard how in one Central American place the local gangs manage neighborhoods. But there are military people to keep a lid on that, it seems. Plus, they might respect certain American missionaries, since they know special ops Americans might clandestinely show up, paid for by taxes.

Now, subtract the taxes . . . and . . .

Evolution at its purest comes next, with creatures of the same kind at times eating one another. This is why I thank and salute police officers. Tax money might not be protection money, but thank you money. I have observed how protection can work . . . maybe . . . how, among other things, the racketeers supervise everything, including making the local donut shop double-load its dumpster so half the dumping fees go to the racket. And a shelter can have counselors threatened or bribed to keep addicts so their social security payments can be collected.

But the counselors and addicts go along with that. So, it's not the taxes or policies, really, which are the problem. But I am my problem, more than anyone else or anything else is, I keep finding, in my case. Only God can take care of this.

Sounds like a lot of 'iffy' presuppositions.

 

[Astrid]

Sounds like a lot of 'iffy' presuppositions.

That's more than I got out of it.

 

[com7fy8]

Briefly tell us what you mean plz.

Is it "snafu" so give up and let God sort it out?

no

 

[Astrid]

no

So your whole post just meant "no"?

Shouldda just said that in the first place!

 

[com7fy8]

So your whole post just meant "no"?

no . . . the "no" is in answer to the question you ask where

Is it "snafu" so give up and let God sort it out?

I mean, no it is not snafu to let God sort things out.

Now in case you want me to briefly say what I mean by Post #48 >

I mean taxes and welfare are not a problem, but how people use them the wrong way can be a problem.

But there are ones who take good advantage of welfare and taxes.