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A Definition of KINDS

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Freedom777

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What are "kinds"
According to the model, living creatures were not created individually, but in groups known as a "kind". Creatures in a kind were created with a set of characteristics and a potentiality for a limited range of variation. A species (the taxonomic term used by biologists and paleontologists) is NOT synonymous with a kind. Some kinds will include many species as well as higher order taxa, while other kinds (such as humankind) may only include one species.
After the creation, creatures of a kind bred either among themselves generally, or in segregated sub-kinds, species. Breeding causes the appearance of variant forms of the creatures, which is limited by the genetic variation built into the kind when it was created.

At the time of its creation, each kind was created with sufficient genetic potential, or gene pool, to give rise to nearly all the varieties within that kind that have existed in the past and those that are yet in existence today. Genetic mutations can cause variation in a kind, but they have the net effect of deterioration of that kind. Nevertheless, mutations are always horizontal rather than vertical microevolution, and can never produce a new kind or a more complex kind. They also cannot add to the genetic content of a kind, mutations merely distort already existing information.

This model denies macroevolution -- transformations of one kind into another kind.

Some examples of possible kinds (which would really have to be determined by an experienced taxonomist):

o Horses

o Cattle

o Dogs, Wolves.

o Cats, Tigers, Lions (many species in this kind)

o Spiders (many species)

o Flying insects -- many kinds.

o Fish -- many kinds.

o Dinosaurs -- many kinds.

o Human Beings of all races (one species)

Some kinds, such as the Dinosaur kinds, have become extinct.

Where does a "kind" fit into the accepted taxonomic classification system?

It is often difficult for productive dialog to commence between individuals that hold distinctly contrasting worldviews. This is especially true in the area of anthropology. For example, the word hominid is used by the evolutionist community to mean humans and their evolutionary ancestors. It includes the genus Homo, the genus Australopithecus, and all creatures in the family Hominidae. As an evolutionist term it is meaningless in a creationist worldview. The creationist counterpart would be the term human, referring to all descendants of the first created man and woman.

It may be surprising to some to learn that there is no clear-cut, accepted scientific definition for any of the taxonomic categories, including Homo sapiens. While there is some consensus on these categories, there is enough uncertainty to cause quite a lot of confusion even among experienced taxonomists. Fossil finds are sometimes placed into one classification, only to be switched into another when the evolutionist finds that it does not fit well into evolutionary theory.

The scientist who set up the currently used classification system was a creationist. Carolus Linnaeus intended the species to be the same as a created kind. Species is the Latin word for kind.

The problem with the criterion is that it is difficult to carry out. Performing breeding experiments on organisms with long lifespans such as elephants is impractical or impossible. Biologists tended rather to base their extension of Linnaeus' ideas on external characteristics rather than genetics.

Hence, the dog, the wolf, and the coyote are classified as separate species because of their external physical characteristics. However, they can all interbreed and produce fertile offspring. Therefore, they should all be placed in the same species and the same kind.

Some feel that it may be possible to alter the system of taxonomy used by biologists and paleontologists to group species into kinds. As yet, no one has done this in a systematic fashion. Others feel that the current setup is so entrenched that it would be almost impossible to change all of the classified organisms based on genetics.

Written By, Darren Gordon gordond@iname.com
 

notto

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So how many chromosomes did the original 'kind's have?

Each of the groupings listed above as a 'kind' have species with different chromosome counts in them. If mutation cannot add genetic information, how is this explained? (and how does this 'kinds' description relate to plants where we know that genetic information and chromosomes can be added all the time?)

If different animals in the same 'kind' can have different numbers of chromosomes, then why aren't apes and man considered the same kind?

If all of the kinds were created at the same time, then why don't we see this is the fossil record. Why no 'cattle' kind or 'human' kind or 'ape' kind mixed up with the extinct dinosaur 'kind' anywhere? Why no mammals with the dinosaurs at all?

This hypothesis certainly has some holes and is simply an attempt to have an ad-hoc explaination.

It doesn't explain genetic diversity or the fossil record better than current mainstream theory so it really is of little scientific value.
 
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Late_Cretaceous

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So let me get this straight.


A human and chimp would be different "kinds" even though we share so much in the way of genetics, behaviour, morphology and physiology. But then, a wasp, butterfly, dragonfly and mayfly would all be the same "kind" in spite of the enormous differences between them?

Humans have more in common, in these regards, with a turtle then a dragonfly has in common with a butterfly. And yet you propose to lump them in together as a single kind?

Tell me, exactly what criteria do you use to define kind? It certainly is not based on biology - that is pretty obvious. Perhaps you are basing it entirely on superficial characteristics (like insect wings), in which case you may as well lump dolphins and sharks together as one kind.
 
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gluadys

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Freedom777 said:
What are "kinds"
According to the model, living creatures were not created individually, but in groups known as a "kind". Creatures in a kind were created with a set of characteristics and a potentiality for a limited range of variation.

Of course, if the creation of kinds was followed up by a global flood it was a wasted effort to give each kind a potential for variation, since that potential was virtually wiped out.

Do you want to suggest how it was restored again after the flood?


Nevertheless, mutations are always horizontal rather than vertical microevolution, and can never produce a new kind or a more complex kind. They also cannot add to the genetic content of a kind, mutations merely distort already existing information.

"vertical micro-evolution" Never heard of that before. What do you mean by it?

How do you know that mutations cannot add genetic content? If a new allele is introduced into the gene pool by a variation (such as the allele which enabled a flavobacterium to digest nylon), why can that not be considered an addition to the genetic content of the kind? (Assuming that flavobacteria are a kind.)


Fossil finds are sometimes placed into one classification, only to be switched into another when the evolutionist finds that it does not fit well into evolutionary theory.

Not so. Fossil finds are switched to a new category when there was an error in the first placement. The decision is based on the match between the morphology of the fossil and the taxonomic descriptions of species. Has nothing at all to do with evolutionary theory.
 
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thekawasakikid

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Even if the argument in the OP was to be accepted, what then? Lions don't mate with tigers and different species of spider only mate within their own species, so from the kinds you are trying to describe, how did we got to today, with lots of different species within the 'kind'?

You are discounting macroevolution but yet your argument surely promotes and depends upon evolution within the kind? This is what I cannot fathom about creationists - they claim that evolution is ridiculous but then in the next breath, they have to use it to explain how we get from the animals which survived the flood to the biodiversity we see today.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Well, lions and tigers can mate, but the offspring are sterile. Does that make them a different "kind" or not?

The only hint of an actual definition of 'Kind' in this thread is the title. There is no useful definition in the actual post.
 
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thekawasakikid

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If my memory of my university education serves me correctly, sterile offspring are a product of the mating of different species. That's one of the factors which allows us to define a species, right? My point was that even if the so-called kinds are what Freedom777 says, evolution must still have taken place for two distinct species (lions and tigers, which can't reproduce to make fertile ligers, or tions :D ) to have descended from one common ancestor.

Yet that process is the very thing which YECs berate as irreligious nonsense. Bizarre... :confused:
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Alas, it ain't that simple.

Anyone who's owned an aquarium can tell you that the various species of Xiphophorus interbreed freely, producing fertile offspring, as do members of the genera Pterophyllum and Symphosodon, amongst others. There are even crosses from fish of different genera within the Cichlidae family that are fertile (the popular "Parrot Fish" is a case in point.)

The simple fact is that even the species designation is somewhat arbitrary. Had Dachsunds and Great Danes been seperated by natural forces and come to their current states that way, I think we'd call them different species.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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thekawasakikid said:
If my memory of my university education serves me correctly, sterile offspring are a product of the mating of different species. That's one of the factors which allows us to define a species, right? My point was that even if the so-called kinds are what Freedom777 says, evolution must still have taken place for two distinct species (lions and tigers, which can't reproduce to make fertile ligers, or tions :D ) to have descended from one common ancestor.

Yet that process is the very thing which YECs berate as irreligious nonsense. Bizarre... :confused:


1-you will find that there is not a simple scientific definition of a species, in fact it has varied rather a great deal over the last 150 years.
an excellent read on the topic is: Darwinism Evolving: Systems Dynamics and the Genealogy of Natural Selection
David J. Depew and Bruce H. Weber
see: http://www.livejournal.com/users/rmwilliamsjr/61927.html for my review of this excellent book.

2-the phenomena of 'ring species' deny the simple transitivity that you are seeking in the definition of species. a=b b=c does not mean a=c

3-there is no 'kind' boundary in biological sciences, it is nothing more than a particular theological notion '-barminology' seeking some support in the biological sciences. organisms form a rather smooth continuum to at least the genus level in animals and perhaps family level in plants. with horizontal genetic transfer in bacteria specifically and prokaroyotes in general there is no clear species line as the thread tries to portray.

---
 
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thekawasakikid

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Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
Alas, it ain't that simple...
...Had Dachsunds and Great Danes been seperated by natural forces and come to their current states that way, I think we'd call them different species.

Bummer :cry:

Although I contest Daschunds and Great Danes are different species, for Daschunds (and chihuauas and Jack Russells) are all rats! ;)
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Elbereth - you hit on more than you know with that insight.

Why, indeed, must humans be a seperate kind in creationist classification?

It's because of the category error that underlies the whole creationist mindset.

Creationists fail to consider the concept of non-overlapping magesteria. They do not see that theology and science cover different categories of answers. They do not expect to mesh. Theology asks questions such as "Where did the natural world come from?", "Who did it?", "What meaning is there in the universe?" and so on.

Science asks questions such as "How big is the natural world?," "How old is it?" and "How did it get to its current physical state?"

The creationist category error is to try to use the tools of theology, such as scriptures, to answer the questions of science. When they did this about the shape of the solar system, they ended up with geocentrism. When they did it with biodiversity, they ended up with YEC. In both cases, they got it wrong.

All because of a foundational logical mistake.

So, back to humans, kinds and classifications. Again, the creationists are using theological tools to drive a scientific process of classification. Essentially, humans are a seperate "kind" because creationists confuse a theological statement that humans are set apart from the other animals with a scientific description of the relationship between organisms.

Another category error.
 
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