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That's not accurate. However, that's completely off topic. It also has no bearing on the argument at hand. You can choose to bow out or you can choose to consider the evidence before you. The decision is yours.Words can have nuances of meaning or different expressions.
I am not against “ever” meaning “age.”
In the American Heritage Dictionary it defines the word “ever” as: “To a great extent or degree.” If you take this definition as meaning in regards to time then it would be saying the same thing as an age. So ”ever” is not a wrong translation. It may not be as clear, but that does not change the fact that it is not true. I believe the King James Bible is the Word of God. You may not have a perfect standard and that’s okay. I am not here to convince you. From my understanding on what you said to me once (using other words): You believe Jesus is some kind of created god, and the Holy Spirit is not the third distinct person of the Trinity. You appear to believe in two god like beings. One is eternal (the Father), and one is created (The Word or Jesus). At least that is what you implied by your words to me last time we spoke by email. However, I am not really interested in having discussions with those who deny the traditional view of the Godhead or Trinity.
The Lord our God is one God in substance and yet He also exists as three distinct persons (i.e., the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost - See: 1 John 5:7 in the King James Bible).
Sorry, that’s not convincing in the slightest and does not change your clear distortion of the text. It is illogical to take a story with people that includes real names of real people (like Abraham) and twist it into being a fictional story. A person can say the same thing about Jesus dying on the cross. But the Bible warns against those who turn the Word of God into fables.Hi BH,
If we're going to "Rethink" Hell, shouldn't we do it from a Biblical perspective? Shouldn't we look at what the Bible has to say on the subject rather than what a forum thread or website has to say about it? Let's consider a few things from Scripture. How could people suffer in this fiery place people call Hell. Wouldn't they have to be alive after they were dead? If people are dead, how are they alive. The idea that the dead live on after death doesn't come from Scripture, it comes from Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism. This idea says that man is something other than human. It claims that his spirit and/or soul lives on after death. However, that doesn't fit with Scripture. Let's look at what Moses said about the creation of man.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 2:7.
According to Moses, God created man from the dust of the ground and breathed His breath into the man. These two combined to form a living soul. We can see from this that a soul consists of both the breath of God and the man or flesh body. Thus, a soul cannot exist apart from the body. The breath or spirit is something of God Himself and not something of man. It's clear from this that when God's breath or spirit of life leaves the body, the soul ceases to exist, and the body decays and returns to the dust. There is nothing left to live on. What did God say about man's death?
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 3:17–19.
Here God said that Adam was dust. This isn't the only place God describes man.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 6:2–3.
Here God says that man is flesh. If man is flesh, as God said, and the flesh dies, the man no longer exists.
Regarding Lazarus and the Rich Man. it is a parable or an allegory. The claim that Jesus never used literal names in a parable is actually a fallacy called an Argument from Silence. John said that Jesus did so many things that he supposed that if it was all written down the world could not contain the books.
24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. 25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 21:24–25.
This may be hyperbole, but the point is that Jesus did many things. Compare, the world could not contain the books, with the four short Gospels we have recorded, and I think it's pretty clear that what we have is a drop in the bucket of the things Jesus did and spoke. So, to claim He never used names in a parable simply cannot be established as fact. What we can establish as fact is that He didn't use names in any of the parables we have recorded in our Bibles except that of Lazarus and the Rich Man. However, as we see that's a very limited selection of what Jesus did and spoke.
Let us also consider who the parable was addressed to.
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Lk 16:14–18.
We can see from this that Jesus is addressing the Pharisees. It's likely the Scribes were there also. How did Jesus address the unbelieving Jews?
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 13:10–15.
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 13:34–35.
Here we find that Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables. Mathew says that without a parable Jesus didn't speak to them. We can conclude from this that Jesus' words to the Pharisees were parables. The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man was directed at the Pharisees; thus, it must be a parable.
Now, let us consider the parable itself. Why might Jesus use a name in a parable? Back in Biblical times names were often everyday words. Jesus' name for instance, Yeshua, was the word for salvation. The word Lazarus was the Greek form of the Hebrew word Eleazar. Notice the first to letters, "El" this represents God. The word literally means, "God is my help" or "God help". The Pharisees knew this. Whoever Jesus is indicating Lazarus to be, He is indicating that God helped this person. But we're given something more than just a name. We are given a lot of details. This parable is more detailed than the typical parable. Why might that be? Maybe the name Lazarus and all of the details are pertinent to the story. Consider the details. The Rich man was rich. The priesthood (Pharisees and Scribes) was rich. the Rich Man was dressed in purple and fine linen. The Priesthood was dressed in purple and fine linen. The Rich Man fared sumptuously; the Priesthood fared sumptuously. The Rich Man had five brothers. The Priesthood is from the tribe of Levi, who had five brothers. Consider Lazarus. He was poor, Jesus was poor. Lazarus was laid at the Rich Man's gate. Jesus was laid at the Jews gate, metaphorically. He came to the Jews. The Rich Man neglected Lazarus. The Jews rejected Jesus. The dogs licked Lazarus' sores. They comforted or accepted him. The Jews called the Gentiles dogs. The Jews rejected Jesus, while the Gentiles accepted Him. Lazarus was carried by angels to his father's bosom. Jesus was carried by angels to His Father's bosom. John said that Jesus is in the bosom of the Father.
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 1:17–18.
Surely all of these details are not a coincidence. Jesus was giving a parable about the destruction or death of the Priesthood, thus the use of Hades, the grave. The Priesthood was going to the grave. Note Jesus' words just prior to the parable.
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Lk 16:16.
The Law and the prophets were until John. In other words, you Pharisees, your time is up. Your reign is over. It's going to the grave. Thus, the use of hade, the grave, in the parable. The name Lazarus means God help. God helped Jesus. Psalm 22 talks about the crucifixion and God helping Jesus. There's a lot more that can be said on this parable, but this is getting long.
Here's something else to consider. In Scripture, when people are said to be suffering in fire it's in Gehenna, not hades. There are only two passages of Scripture that speak of someone suffering burning in hades. The first mention of this is in Deuteronomy.
Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful,
And hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them,
Because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them,
I will see what their end shall be:
For they are a very froward generation,
Children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God;
They have provoked me to anger with their vanities:
And I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people;
I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger,
And shall burn unto the lowest hell,
And ||shall consume the earth with her increase,
And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Dt 32:18–22.
God is angry with Israel and said a fire is kindled in His anger and it will burn to the lowest hades. The Rich Man is an Israelite. The Priesthood consists of Israelites. We know this passage is talking about Christ's day because the apostle Paul quotes verse 21 and applies it to his day. We see from this that the fire that the Rich Man is suffering is not literal fire but rather God's anger against Israel, thus the destruction of the Priesthood.
To claim this parable is about people be tortured after they die is nonsensical. Nowhere do the Scriptures tell us that the wicked will burn in hades, it's always Gehenna where the wicked burn.
There's a lot more that can be said on this parable. It's taken from four Old Testament passages which the Scribes adnd Pharisees would have been familiar with.
No. You believe in two gods (or two beings) and not the blessed Godhead (Trinity). I was hoping to not quote your words. But because of your denial of what you said here, I am forced to show others here the truth about what you really stated (So that they are not deceived by what you really believe).That's not accurate. However, that's completely off topic. It also has no bearing on the argument at hand. You can choose to bow out or you can choose to consider the evidence before you. The decision is yours.
Well doneIV. “Forever” (and Some of Its Related Synonyms) Does Not Always Mean “For All Eternity”:
In fact, I believe why most hold to Eternal Torment is because they do not understand that the word "forever" (and some of its related synonyms) does not always mean "for all eternity" in the Bible. Sure, sometimes the word “forever” can mean “for all eternity,” but not always. Why do I say that?Well, I heard a pastor once say that the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you.In other words, the word "forever" (and its related words) does not always mean ”for all eternity” in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific temporal thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) does not mean “for all eternity?”• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to the descendants of Israel “forever.” However, the Earth (Where Canaan resides) will pass away (Matthew 24:35) (Revelation 21:1).• Isaiah 34:9-10 mentions a city in the region of Idumea (of the people of Edom) and how its burning pitch will not be quenched night or day, and the smoke of that city will go up forever. However, again, the Earth (Where Idumea resides) will pass away (Matthew 24:35) (Revelation 21:1). Note: Please pay special attention to this passage. It also mentions “night, “day” and “for ever and ever” just like Revelation 20:10.• The Israelites and their sons were to keep the Passover “forever” (Exodus 12:24).The Passover is a part of the laws of Moses. But Christians today are not under the Laws of Moses (Romans 6:14) (Acts 13:39) (Acts 15:1-24).• Exodus 27:21 says Aaron and his sons must keep the lamps burning as a statute (law) forever unto their generations (descendants). Exodus 28:43 says that Aaron and his sons must wear certain pieces of clothing when they enter the Tabernacle. This was to be a statute (law) unto Aaron and his sons forever. The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15). However, the Aaronic priesthood was temporary, and it was replaced by the priesthood order of Melchisedec (Hebrews 7:11-19).• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they “were scattered” (Habakkuk 3:6).• God was to dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:12-13, 1 Kings 8:27), until -- the Temple was destroyed (2 Kings 25:8-17).• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9) and they are not to let others judge them if they don’t keep the Sabbath days (Colossians 2:14-17).• The fire for Israel's burnt offering (animal sacrifice) is never to be put out (Leviticus 6:12-13), and yet -- Christ offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, and sat down on the right hand of God (Hebrews 10:12).• Jonah describes how the earth with her bars was about him forever when he was in the fish (Jonah 2:6), until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 1:17).• The forts and towers shall be for dens (animal habitations) for ever, until -- the Spirit is poured out (Isaiah 32:13-16).• The King James Bible, as well as many other translations, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6). This obviously would be only until his death.• Numbers 15:15 says that the animal sacrifices will be forever, but we clearly know this is not the case because Jesus has become our Passover Lamb (1 Corinthians 5:7) (1 Peter 1:19).• In Philemon 1:15: Paul mentioned to Philemon how Onesimus may have departed so that Philemon may receive him back forever. Obviously if this were to have happened, Onesimus is not an immortal man still living upon the Earth with his master (Philemon) today. If Onesimus returned, he would have returned back to his master forever within the context of their temporary lives upon the Earth.So the word "forever" as used in the Bible is true. It does mean "forever" but it is talking in "forever" under the context of within either a temporary Covenant, or here upon this Earth (which is temporal), or within the Lake of Fire (Which is also a temporary place). For example: A husband can say to his wife that he will be with her forever. But of course, this talking in context of "forever" as being here upon this Earth. In many cases, words such as "everlasting" or "forever" can be in context to a particular thing that is temporal within the Bible.
Source used:
(Please take note that I do not agree with everything these Christian authors believe, say, or do).
(I also adjusted some of his points on his list, as well).
Apttpteach
If you're still interested in this subject, I would recommend looking up an individual on Facebook named John H Roller. He has made an unpublished book called The Doctrine of Immortality in the Early Church. In this book, he goes over extensively who in the other church believed the traditional view of Hell, and who believed the conditionalist view of Hell. It is an unbiased work, and even though he is an Adventist (not Seventh Day) he does not change certain quotes, or leave out certain parts from the ECF to make it seem like they were conditionalists even though they were traditionalists. He still has yet to publish his work on the basis of he wants to make absolutely sure that he gets all available information, and doesn't want to leave anything out.Ok! But those who knew and traveled with the apostles, should have a close understanding of scripture, I believe. The apostolic Fathers, they could ask the apostles what was unclear. Of course like you say the Early Church writings are not inspired scripture, but they could point us to a direction.
At first, I could not find it, but I looked under the folder called, “College Courses” and it was under that folder.If you're still interested in this subject, I would recommend looking up an individual on Facebook named John H Roller. He has made an unpublished book called The Doctrine of Immortality in the Early Church. In this book, he goes over extensively who in the other church believed the traditional view of Hell, and who believed the conditionalist view of Hell. It is an unbiased work, and even though he is an Adventist (not Seventh Day) he does not change certain quotes, or leave out certain parts from the ECF to make it seem like they were conditionalists even though they were traditionalists. He still has yet to publish his work on the basis of he wants to make absolutely sure that he gets all available information, and doesn't want to leave anything out.
or, you could find this book here at his link that he provides on his web page John Roller's FREE Stuff ... when you click on books, look for the author John Roller. When you click on that link it will send you to a folder with a bunch of .docs and you can find the 2021 version of the book there.
Bible Highlighter, I am so sorry, I should have given better instructions. The place to find it is under Writings listed by author . Then under the author, look for John Roller. Click on that it will send you to a bunch of .doc documents, and you will find the book in that locationAt first, I could not find it, but I looked under the folder called, “College Courses” and it was under that folder.
However, it only appears to be available only as audio files.
The docs that are in that folder for this topic is a three page summary introduction or something and not the full sized write-up.
If you have the actual full sized PDF of his write-up on this topic on your computer, upload it to Google Drive and make the link shareable with anyone who has the link. I prefer PDFs rather than audio files.
I would love to see it.
Thanks.
May God bless you.
Unfortunately linking to that particular document in that way leads you to a sign in page. The best way one can reach that particular document is going through the original link that I shared.Thank you.
Side Note:
For those who want to check out the direct download page or to view it online, here is the direct link to the PDF article.
The Doctrine of Immortality in the Early Church - John Roller
I see what you mean. Very strange.Unfortunately linking to that particular document in that way leads you to a sign in page. The best way one can reach that particular document is going through the original link that I shared.
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