A Defense of Calvinism

[cygnusx1]

I suppose there are some persons whose minds naturally incline towards the doctrine of free-will. I can only say that mine inclines as naturally towards the doctrines of sovereign grace. Sometimes, when I see some of the worst characters in the street, I feel as if my heart must burst forth in tears of gratitude that God has never let me act as they have done! I have thought, if God had left me alone, and had not touched me by His grace, what a great sinner I should have been! I should have run to the utmost lengths of sin, dived into the very depths of evil, nor should I have stopped at any vice or folly, if God had not restrained me. I feel that I should have been a very king of sinners, if God had let me alone. I cannot understand the reason why I am saved, except upon the ground that God would have it so. I cannot, if I look ever so earnestly, discover any kind of reason in myself why I should be a partaker of Divine grace. If I am not at this moment without Christ, it is only because Christ Jesus would have His will with me, and that will was that I should be with Him where He is, and should share His glory. I can put the crown nowhere but upon the head of Him whose mighty grace has saved me from going down into the pit. Looking back on my past life, I can see that the dawning of it all was of God; of God effectively. I took no torch with which to light the sun, but the sun enlightened me. I did not commence my spiritual life—no, I rather kicked, and struggled against the things of the Spirit: when He drew me, for a time I did not run after Him: there was a natural hatred in my soul of everything holy and good. Wooings were lost upon me—warnings were cast to the wind—thunders were despised; and as for the whispers of His love, they were rejected as being less than nothing and vanity. But, sure I am, I can say now, speaking on behalf of myself, "He only is my salvation." It was He who turned my heart, and brought me down on my knees before Him. I can in very deed, say with Doddridge and Toplady—




"Grace taught my soul to pray,
And made my eyes o'erflow


and coming to this moment, I can add—


"'Tis grace has kept me to this day,
And will not let me go."

 

[cygnusx1]

Well can I remember the manner in which I learned the doctrines of grace in a single instant. Born, as all of us are by nature, an Arminian, I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit, and did not see the grace of God. When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul—when they were, as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron, and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown on a sudden from a babe into a man—that I had made progress in Scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God. One week-night, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher's sermon, for I did not believe it. The thought struck me, How did you come to be a Christian? I sought the Lord. But how did you come to seek the Lord? The truth flashed across my mind in a moment—I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so? Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, "I ascribe my change wholly to God."

C H S

 

[cygnusx1]

"Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect" 2Tim 2:10

 

[SpiritDriven]

I really dont know how Calvanists can defend a Calvanist position.

Calvanists are Scriptualy astute enough to be aware that man does not have free will....yet seem to ignore that it was God who shut up all men in disobedience that he may show mercy to all....

 

[Reformationist]

I really dont know how Calvanists can defend a Calvanist position.

Calvanists are Scriptualy astute enough to be aware that man does not have free will....yet seem to ignore that it was God who shut up all men in disobedience that he may show mercy to all....

On some level God is merciful to all without exception, but that mercy is dispensed as it pleases God according to His will. It appears as if you're contending that God is merciful to all in the same fashion and that simply is not biblical. The intent of God is seen in the result of His mercy. If it brings one to faith then that was His intent. If it does not, then their salvation wasn't His intent.

Good posts Cyg.

God bless

 

[Epiphoskei]

I really dont know how Calvanists can defend a Calvanist position.

Calvanists are Scriptualy astute enough to be aware that man does not have free will....yet seem to ignore that it was God who shut up all men in disobedience that he may show mercy to all....

Well, we've got scripture for Particular Redemption as well, not just Unconditional Election...

 

[Van]

No scripture, contextually considered, supports the false doctrines of Calvinism. Limited Atonement as defined by RT is demonstrated false by 1 John 2:2. Unconditional Election is demonstrated false by James 2:5. Calvinism is defended by redefining the meaning of words, selectively quoting phrases of scripture out of context, and asserting that errant inferences reflect what the scriptures mean, rather than accepting what they say.
What must I do to be saved is answered with "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ." But according to Calvinism, this does not mean a person has the ability to believe, but rather he or she has no ability to believe, and therefore you can do nothing to be saved. Thus scripture is rewritten by errant inference because "it does not say he or she could believe."

Paul teaches that men should make the choice to do what is right rather than be compelled to do what is right. Thus Paul teaches free will.

Similarly Calvinist's present the truth that we respond to God's revealing grace, and thus we pray because scripture taught us to pray, and scripture is a gift from God. But they they take this truth, and turn God's revealing grace into their false doctrine of Irresistible Grace. But again that false doctrine is demonstrated false by Matthew 23:13. For people were entering heaven, and thus had to be under the influence of Irresistible Grace according to Calvinism, yet were turned aside by false teachings, demonstrating God's grace can be resisted and rejected.

 

[Reformationist]

Limited Atonement as defined by RT is demonstrated false by 1 John 2:2. Unconditional Election is demonstrated false by James 2:5. Calvinism is defended by redefining the meaning of words, selectively quoting phrases of scripture out of context, and asserting that errant inferences reflect what the scriptures mean, rather than accepting what they say.

You silly Calvinists!! How dare you undestand "atonement" to mean "that which that actually atones."

Better acrostic, though harder to remember:

R - Radical Depravity
S - Sovereign Election
D - Definite Atonement
E - Efficacious Grace
P - Preservation of the Saints

 

[Epiphoskei]

Paul teaches that men should make the choice to do what is right rather than be compelled to do what is right. Thus Paul teaches free will.

Quote one single verse by him which implies clearly that the two are in contradiction.

I know there are many verses that support "free will." That doesn't bother me because calvinism believes in "free will." (with several caveats, but the notion that man still does what he wants of his own volition is still calvinistic. Read Luther's explanation here: http://foru.ms/t6177758-of-necessity.html)

What you must do is prove from scripture and not from philosophy that man's will cannot be freely determinate. Otherwise, I will believe the scripture when it says that it has been granted to us to believe and it is God who works in us to believe, and I will believe the scripture when it says whoever believes will be saved, and I will not let you set the one as contradicting the other.

 

[Bob L]

The doctrine of predestination, as the Calvinists (and Arminians) believe it to be, that God singled out some to be saved and some for dmanation is utterly wrong. It is in fact the same error that the Jews committed for thousands of years. It is this error that is the reason why God sent his son to Israel, because He knew they were so full of themselves, believing themselves to be chosen by God, that they would put an end to Jesus' life. It is the same error that Paul in his epistles is most adamant in erasing, having seen the revelation that no man is chosen/predestined for salvation above any other.

Why is it that in every reference, OT and NT when scripture talks about chosen, predestined... that it never says ' and those not chosen were left to go to hell!' Because it's not true.

I'll politely take your arrows now, thank you.

 

[cygnusx1]

Israel are Elect ;

For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.Isa.45:4


Israel is God's spouse ;

"For your Maker is your husband, the Lord of hosts is his name, and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer" (Is 54:5).

Israel is God's child. ;


Hos.11

[1] When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

The beloved nation of Israel is viewed as a whole entity (Romans 11) , when Paul distinguishes between children of Abraham and those who are not Abraham's children it is secondary election , unto salvation (Rom 9) that is in view.


It has everything to do with election , the nation were chosen , they were like no other (still are) and God sent them Christ , these are God's people , notwithstanding some of them were unfaithful , that unfaithfulness does not and cannot make God unfaithful over them.

Rom.3

[1] What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
[2] Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
[3] For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
[4] God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.


one more time let us ask ;

Rom.11

[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
[2] God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,


Romans 11 deals with national election of a nation , and what is to become of her.

Romans 9 deals with individual election .


If decendancy has no meaning what becomes of Covenant theology , why do the Reformed baptise their children ?

If decendancy has no meaning why are the promises to Abraham transfered to his son and his son etc ?

If the decendancy means nothing why does Paul use his own decendancy as a major answer to the question "has God finished with the Jews" .... ?

why mention belonging to a tribe of Benjamin if God has withdrawn His love and support for His people Israel ?

It is time all Christians recognised that Gentile Christians are merely additions to the vine called Israel , some were broken off because of their unbelief , and Gentiles are grafted onto the vine against nature ; into the people of God , Israel.

The only replacement hinted at in Romans 11 is NOT the Church replacing Israel , as if , it is simply Gentile Christians 'replacing' fallen - God hardened Jews.

God has not seen fit to uproot Israel , to cast her off , to divorce her , even if some Jews have proven unfaithful , God's promises to Abraham and his OFFSPRING remain unchanged , God has sworn and cannot lie.

 

[Bob L]

Cygnusx1, are you sure you're a Calvinist? So then what you're saying is that all people were predestined, some through His choice (original covenant) some through Christ (new covenant.) Wow, I think you've got it! But, I'm not sure you're a Calvinist then. Better change your profile.

 

[cygnusx1]

Calvinism in a nutshell :​

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags. None can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. For He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth Mercy. You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given Me, for they are Thine. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. For by Grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
(Is:64:6(a), John 6:44, Rom. 9:15-16, John 15:16(a), 17:9, Phil 2:13, Eph 2:8)​

 

[Bob L]

That's a beautiful, albeit large, compilation of scripts taken out of context and jumbled together, but yes, that is what Calvinism purports.

 

[cygnusx1]

That's a beautiful, albeit large, compilation of scripts taken out of context and jumbled together, but yes, that is what Calvinism purports.

as usual negative comment with zero substance ....... a habit often seen by baiters and trolls.

 

[cygnusx1]

5) The Necessity of Predestination
I've laid the foundation: Man is completely a sinner who is incapable of understanding and coming to God and has a sinful free will capable only of rejecting God. Therefore, in order for salvation to occur, God must predestine. It can be no other way. If this is so, then there should be verses supporting it. There are:

• Acts 13:48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; AND AS MANY AS HAD BEEN APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED.
• John 1:12-13: But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, WHO WERE BORN NOT OF BLOOD, NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD.
• Philippians 1:29: FOR TO YOU IT HAS BEEN GRANTED FOR CHRIST'S SAKE, NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE IN HIM, but also to suffer for his sake.
• Romans 8:29-30: FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW, HE ALSO PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
• Ephesians 1:5: HE PREDESTINED US to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.
• Ephesians 1:11 Also WE HAVE OBTAINED AN INHERITANCE, HAVING BEEN PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE who works all things after the counsel of His will.

The preceding scriptures clearly show that the Lord is very active in salvation. He did not simply provide the means of salvation, the cross, but He also ensured the application of the blood of Christ through predestination.


scriptures


How can it be any other way than God's loving predestination to make our salvation not only possible, but also a reality? Left to man, salvation is impossible: "When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, ‘Who then can be saved?' Jesus looked at them and said, ‘With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible'" (Matthew 19:25-26). That is why it must be God who opens the heart: "And a certain woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul" (Acts 16:14).

This is what truly glorifies God, that in His infinite mercy He is gracious enough to save those who would always reject Him, always hate Him, and always malign Him. Praise Him and His love!

http://www.calvinistcorner.com/predestination.htm

 

[Bob L]

Most refutations of Calvinism do not address the central misunderstandings that Calvinists have. Refutations usually only point to other proof texts, usually for Arminians, that seem to posit a different stance. To really put to bed this cult once and for all I believe we need to systematically readdress all five points of Calvinism using their own proof texts.

The reason this hasn't been done before is that all the world has gotten lost in Romans 6 and Ephesians 1. Let me put it this way: Calvinists believe that all men are predestined from eternity either for salvation or reprobation (this from Rom 6 & Eph 1) based on God's decree (various proof texts.) Arminius, who was a follower of Calvin, tried to break away from Calvin by stating that all men are predestined from eternity either for salvation or reprobation (this from Rom 6 & Eph 1) based on God's foreknowledge of man's free actions (various proof texts.)

The main problem is they both got Rom & Eph wrong! We're not predestined at all! At least not as they understand it. Due to the size of this task, I am contemplating starting a new thread. Talk to you soon, Bob

 

[Van]

Hi Bob L, your post #10 was great.

 

[Van]

Hi Epip, No scripture, contextually considered, supports the false doctrines of Calvinism. Limited Atonement as defined by RT is demonstrated false by 1 John 2:2. Unconditional Election is demonstrated false by James 2:5. Calvinism is defended by redefining the meaning of words, selectively quoting phrases of scripture out of context, and asserting that errant inferences reflect what the scriptures mean, rather than accepting what they say.
What must I do to be saved is answered with "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ." But according to Calvinism, this does not mean a person has the ability to believe, but rather he or she has no ability to believe, and therefore you can do nothing to be saved. Thus scripture is rewritten by errant inference because "it does not say he or she could believe."

Paul teaches that men should make the choice to do what is right rather than be compelled to do what is right. Thus Paul teaches free will.

Similarly Calvinist's present the truth that we respond to God's revealing grace, and thus we pray because scripture taught us to pray, and scripture is a gift from God. But they they take this truth, and turn God's revealing grace into their false doctrine of Irresistible Grace. But again that false doctrine is demonstrated false by Matthew 23:13. For people were entering heaven, and thus had to be under the influence of Irresistible Grace according to Calvinism, yet were turned aside by false teachings, demonstrating God's grace can be resisted and rejected.

Calvinists say they believe this or that, but then another Calvinist says this or that is not Calvinism. You have no position. RT believes in exhaustive determinism, that whatsoever comes to pass was foreordained by God. Every thought. If our thoughts our foreordained then we exercise no free will with free will meaning the ability make choices that alter the outcome. Since the outcome is foreordained, we cannot alter it, therefore our "choice" according to some Calvinists is an illusion.

 

[nobdysfool]

The typical rantings of a man with an axe to grind. Truth is NEVER established by belittling those with whom you disagree. yet that is the modus operandi of the anti-Calvinists in this forum. the reasoning being given is "because Calvinists do this and do that, redefine words, practice deceitfulness, and hide what the truly believe (which charges are never, ever substantiated), i.e because Calvinists commit sin in preaching their doctrine, therefore, ______'s doctrine is true."

I trust that the unbiased reader can see the glaring logical fallacy of such an argument, which presented ad infinitum, ad nauseum, by the anti-Calvinists, and one in particular. Over and over again, this person posts that Calvinists sin in preaching and supporting their doctrine, without any proof, just bold statements which he expects that you should accept without question. And when challenged, he responds with even more vitriol, and accuses his detractors of what he himself believes and has said, and now declares to be wrong. He cannot even remain consistent, so intense is his hatred of Calvinism, and so intense is his desire to destroy it by whatever means necessary. Such actions undermine any credibility he might have ever had.