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A cup of Java

pshun2404

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Ever see the impressionable image they made for Nebraska Pig for textbook and media presentations? Did you ever see a more human looking pig in your life?

Well Java man was another mythological assumption-based missing link. Admittedly, YEC creationist sites draw all sorts of erroneous conclusions even claiming an alleged “deathbed” confession. Don’t they realize that this brings shame to the name? Just walk in the truth whatever it is. Know the truth and the TRUTH shall set you free. On the other hand, Evolutionary Biology propaganda sites are equally dishonest and draw all sorts of erroneous associations with other creatures found elsewhere that are anthropologically very distinct (forensically speaking). So the first truth we must consider is that even Dubois believed that “Pithecanthropus [Java Man] was not a man, but a gigantic genus allied to the gibbons.”

The skull cap and molars were clearly from some variety of early ape but the final Dubois construction was a bit contrived. Here is why!

The skull cap and molars (totally ape) were found on one occasion, and then later, about 50 feet away (still in level D however), they found the femur (equal to any human though slightly thicker) and instead of seeing it as possible evidence of early HUMANS existing at the same time as this other creature (which would be against the conclusion that would get funded) they fit the two unrelated finds into the theory (typical of bad science), and so erroneously insisted they belonged to the same creature and presented it as proof of an ape-like creature that was upright and bi-pedal like a human (remember poor Ota Benga).

This find was eventually associated with the Peking Man find (where to perpetuate the theory they again mixed evidence of early humans with evidence of apes) which was re-interpreted to force fit the data into the pedagogues “acceptable” theory. You aren’t supposed to know this part, but did you know Dubois also had two human skulls known as the Wadjak skulls found at the same site? Dubois never hid the fact but he never really brought them to light either. Some YECs claim he kept them hidden and some EBs have recently re-interpreted these to be Erectus skulls (he actually tried to claim they were Neanderthals but many others said Human) but they had to re-interpret them because the mythos aspect would have been exposed.

All evidence of humans existing prior to 195,000 bce MUST BE re-interpreted as something other or else re-combined with other things found near it (or sometimes from across the world) to make it appear non-human and partly ape.

Actually, when Ralph von Koenigswald (a German Paleontologist) found what turned out to be several early human fossils at the site of Peking Ape he found himself having a hard time receiving funding for his dig and was only able to continue there a short time after. However, he was funded for later digs elsewhere. In fact he made several other important discoveries in Java including those items found in Sangiran where he found a definitely human skull cap from the same time period as Dubois’ Java man. But you will not study this in public school or in most Universities because this information has been intentionally selectively excluded (“selective exclusion” is a technique of engineering opinion in thought control).

The Mojokerto child skull cap (found by von Koenigswald later still) was also clearly human (he named it Pithecanthropus modjokertensis), but Dubois (the pedagoguery’s current hero) protested that Pithecanthropus was not a human but an "ape-man" (do you see how the theory was used to interpret the data? Come on now….you know that is bad science)….see Theunissen, Bert (Jan 1, 1989),Eugène Dubois and the Ape-Man from Java: The History of the First `Missing Link' and Its Discoverer, (Springer Science & Business Media. pp. 161–162).

Many other early human fossils were discovered (see “Sangiran Early Man Site”…sorry I forget the details…but it was displayed by UNESCO) but the information has been repressed unless you dig for it, and the results contrary to the mantra are always “selectively excluded” from most pro-EB peer Journals (again, discarding contrary evidence is indoctrination not science).

Among the skulls there we have ape skulls and human skulls. are As a result of the facts of the “Sangiran Early Man Site” display as well as the work of other scientists, Time Magazine in the Nov. 30, 1953 issue (p. 83) footnoted that "Other early humans are heavily documented by multiple finds of their bones.” But you never hear that opinion (also so solidly based on scientific fact) presented along with the propaganda in your so-called education, did you? Why? Because it explodes the myth that no humans existed that far back, which is an assumption one must swallow whole to be able to re-interpret everything to make Darwin’s theory seem legit! It’s the Geobbels principle (originally noted by William James) which states if you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it the masses will believe it is true.

But to complete the sale of the theory (avoiding the contrary data), and to imprint the innocently inquiring minds of generations (an important part of any successful propaganda plan) they had to have some artist make up an image that would be associated with the imposed dogma so they came up with another totally imaginary contrived ape and man mix (the children of course believed it and still do….I certainly did) which looks exactly like every fictional caveman I ever saw in a school book…

Many of my notes written down years ago were taken from mainly two sources one was G. H. R. von Koenigswald's, "Evolution of Man." University of Michigan Press, Ann Arbor Paperback Series, Revised edition, 1976, translated by Arnold J. Pomerans and Swisher, Curtis, and Lewin's, Java Man: How Two Geologists Changed Our Understanding of Human Evolution, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000.

There are many examples of bones and other evidence found by many to be quite human were mixed with other near by ape-kind bones calling them something or other...but these could just as easily and just as appropriately been interpreted as two creatures (but to admit human would have questioned the dogma and caused an earlier dating for humans....the Darwinian pedagoguery really could not have that).

In some of the Java sites we found indications of burial processes and cooking (which means they knew how to use fire). In my opinion, if we just let the data speak, humans can be shown as early as 350 to 500,000 bce.

The truth is that if we just had let all the data rule the theory there would be no need to make up so many hodge podges and aid them with artistically contrived images. As pointed out in another thread the evidence is just as strong for early humans at the Olduvia gorge (but it did no fit the preconceived conclusion) as well.

Paul
 

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hominids2_big.jpg
.
 
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pshun2404

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In my opinion, E,F, and G are apes and were labelled "Homo" (the Latin for man) to associate the evidence psychologically as missing links in the minds of those being indoctrinated....even alleged Homo Ergaster is questionable. G. Philip Rightmire (1998). "Human Evolution in the Middle Pleistocene: The Role of Homo heidelbergensis". Evolutionary Anthropology, tells us that "There is still disagreement on the subject of the classification, ancestry, and progeny of H. Ergaster."

The rest (except Sapien) are just unsuccessful varieties of human...

Paul
 
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HitchSlap

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Ever see the impressionable image they made for Nebraska Pig for textbook and media presentations? Did you ever see a more human looking pig in your life?

Well Java man was another mythological assumption-based missing link. Admittedly, YEC creationist sites draw all sorts of erroneous conclusions even claiming an alleged “deathbed” confession. Don’t they realize that this brings shame to the name? Just walk in the truth whatever it is. Know the truth and the TRUTH shall set you free. On the other hand, Evolutionary Biology propaganda sites are equally dishonest and draw all sorts of erroneous associations with other creatures found elsewhere that are anthropologically very distinct (forensically speaking). So the first truth we must consider is that even Dubois believed that “Pithecanthropus [Java Man] was not a man, but a gigantic genus allied to the gibbons.”

The skull cap and molars were clearly from some variety of early ape but the final Dubois construction was a bit contrived. Here is why!

The skull cap and molars (totally ape) were found on one occasion, and then later, about 50 feet away (still in level D however), they found the femur (equal to any human though slightly thicker) and instead of seeing it as possible evidence of early HUMANS existing at the same time as this other creature (which would be against the conclusion that would get funded) they fit the two unrelated finds into the theory (typical of bad science), and so erroneously insisted they belonged to the same creature and presented it as proof of an ape-like creature that was upright and bi-pedal like a human (remember poor Ota Benga).

This find was eventually associated with the Peking Man find (where to perpetuate the theory they again mixed evidence of early humans with evidence of apes) which was re-interpreted to force fit the data into the pedagogues “acceptable” theory. You aren’t supposed to know this part, but did you know Dubois also had two human skulls known as the Wadjak skulls found at the same site? Dubois never hid the fact but he never really brought them to light either. Some YECs claim he kept them hidden and some EBs have recently re-interpreted these to be Erectus skulls (he actually tried to claim they were Neanderthals but many others said Human) but they had to re-interpret them because the mythos aspect would have been exposed.

All evidence of humans existing prior to 195,000 bce MUST BE re-interpreted as something other or else re-combined with other things found near it (or sometimes from across the world) to make it appear non-human and partly ape.

Actually, when Ralph von Koenigswald (a German Paleontologist) found what turned out to be several early human fossils at the site of Peking Ape he found himself having a hard time receiving funding for his dig and was only able to continue there a short time after. However, he was funded for later digs elsewhere. In fact he made several other important discoveries in Java including those items found in Sangiran where he found a definitely human skull cap from the same time period as Dubois’ Java man. But you will not study this in public school or in most Universities because this information has been intentionally selectively excluded (“selective exclusion” is a technique of engineering opinion in thought control).

The Mojokerto child skull cap (found by von Koenigswald later still) was also clearly human (he named it Pithecanthropus modjokertensis), but Dubois (the pedagoguery’s current hero) protested that Pithecanthropus was not a human but an "ape-man" (do you see how the theory was used to interpret the data? Come on now….you know that is bad science)….see Theunissen, Bert (Jan 1, 1989),Eugène Dubois and the Ape-Man from Java: The History of the First `Missing Link' and Its Discoverer, (Springer Science & Business Media. pp. 161–162).

Many other early human fossils were discovered (see “Sangiran Early Man Site”…sorry I forget the details…but it was displayed by UNESCO) but the information has been repressed unless you dig for it, and the results contrary to the mantra are always “selectively excluded” from most pro-EB peer Journals (again, discarding contrary evidence is indoctrination not science).

Among the skulls there we have ape skulls and human skulls. are As a result of the facts of the “Sangiran Early Man Site” display as well as the work of other scientists, Time Magazine in the Nov. 30, 1953 issue (p. 83) footnoted that "Other early humans are heavily documented by multiple finds of their bones.” But you never hear that opinion (also so solidly based on scientific fact) presented along with the propaganda in your so-called education, did you? Why? Because it explodes the myth that no humans existed that far back, which is an assumption one must swallow whole to be able to re-interpret everything to make Darwin’s theory seem legit! It’s the Geobbels principle (originally noted by William James) which states if you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it the masses will believe it is true.

But to complete the sale of the theory (avoiding the contrary data), and to imprint the innocently inquiring minds of generations (an important part of any successful propaganda plan) they had to have some artist make up an image that would be associated with the imposed dogma so they came up with another totally imaginary contrived ape and man mix (the children of course believed it and still do….I certainly did) which looks exactly like every fictional caveman I ever saw in a school book…

Many of my notes written down years ago were taken from mainly two sources one was G. H. R. von Koenigswald's, "Evolution of Man." University of Michigan Press, Ann Arbor Paperback Series, Revised edition, 1976, translated by Arnold J. Pomerans and Swisher, Curtis, and Lewin's, Java Man: How Two Geologists Changed Our Understanding of Human Evolution, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000.

There are many examples of bones and other evidence found by many to be quite human were mixed with other near by ape-kind bones calling them something or other...but these could just as easily and just as appropriately been interpreted as two creatures (but to admit human would have questioned the dogma and caused an earlier dating for humans....the Darwinian pedagoguery really could not have that).

In some of the Java sites we found indications of burial processes and cooking (which means they knew how to use fire). In my opinion, if we just let the data speak, humans can be shown as early as 350 to 500,000 bce.

The truth is that if we just had let all the data rule the theory there would be no need to make up so many hodge podges and aid them with artistically contrived images. As pointed out in another thread the evidence is just as strong for early humans at the Olduvia gorge (but it did no fit the preconceived conclusion) as well.

Paul
Got it. Thanks.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Ever see the impressionable image they made for Nebraska Pig for textbook and media presentations? Did you ever see a more human looking pig in your life?

No. The only place I have ever heared about this Nebraska thing, was from creationists.

Well Java man was another mythological assumption-based missing link.

How was it mythical?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Man

So the first truth we must consider is that even Dubois believed that “Pithecanthropus [Java Man] was not a man, but a gigantic genus allied to the gibbons.”


Funny. From the wiki article above: In the 1930s Dubois made the claim that Pithecanthropus was built like a "giant gibbon", a much misinterpreted attempt by Dubois to prove that it was the "missing link".



 
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Shemjaza

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In my opinion, E,F, and G are apes and were labelled "Homo" (the Latin for man) to associate the evidence psychologically as missing links in the minds of those being indoctrinated....even alleged Homo Ergaster is questionable. G. Philip Rightmire (1998). "Human Evolution in the Middle Pleistocene: The Role of Homo heidelbergensis". Evolutionary Anthropology, tells us that "There is still disagreement on the subject of the classification, ancestry, and progeny of H. Ergaster."

The rest (except Sapien) are just unsuccessful varieties of human...

evolution-middle.jpg

Not seeing any kind of hard ape Vs man line.

But I do agree that "unsuccessful varieties of human" is a good way of describing our cousins. If they lived today, even though they'd be different species, they'd be people as well.
 
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In my opinion, E,F, and G are apes and were labelled "Homo" (the Latin for man) to associate the evidence psychologically as missing links in the minds of those being indoctrinated....even alleged Homo Ergaster is questionable. G. Philip Rightmire (1998). "Human Evolution in the Middle Pleistocene: The Role of Homo heidelbergensis". Evolutionary Anthropology, tells us that "There is still disagreement on the subject of the classification, ancestry, and progeny of H. Ergaster."

The rest (except Sapien) are just unsuccessful varieties of human...

Paul
Just to make sure I'm clear, it's your position that A-G are apes and H-N are human?
 
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Ever see the impressionable image they made for Nebraska Pig for textbook and media presentations?

Did you? What textbooks was it found in? Who drew the picture?

Well Java man was another mythological assumption-based missing link.

The Dubois skull cap is still considered to be from H. erectus, and H. erectus is still considered to be a transitional species. What makes it transitional is the combination of human and ape features. The cranium is much larger than that found in other apes which makes it more human-like. The large brow ridges are more ape-like than what is seen in modern humans.

java.jpg





The skull cap and molars (totally ape) were found on one occasion, and then later, about 50 feet away (still in level D however), they found the femur (equal to any human though slightly thicker) and instead of seeing it as possible evidence of early HUMANS existing at the same time as this other creature (which would be against the conclusion that would get funded) they fit the two unrelated finds into the theory (typical of bad science), and so erroneously insisted they belonged to the same creature and presented it as proof of an ape-like creature that was upright and bi-pedal like a human (remember poor Ota Benga).

The discovery of more complete H. erectus fossils, such as Turkana boy, demonstrate that H. erectus was bipedal.

220px-Turkana_Boy.jpg


Of course, you will ignore the evidence.
 
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IMO A-G are definitely Apes...yes even Habalis...
And what features make A-G clearly apes? Can these features be used to reliably sort apes from humans, or are some skeletons ambiguous even with those standards?
 
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pshun2404

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Did you? What textbooks was it found in? Who drew the picture?



The Dubois skull cap is still considered to be from H. erectus, and H. erectus is still considered to be a transitional species. What makes it transitional is the combination of human and ape features. The cranium is much larger than that found in other apes which makes it more human-like. The large brow ridges are more ape-like than what is seen in modern humans.

java.jpg







The discovery of more complete H. erectus fossils, such as Turkana boy, demonstrate that H. erectus was bipedal.

220px-Turkana_Boy.jpg


Of course, you will ignore the evidence.

Turkana Boy skeleton in the Smithsonian, to me, unlike Java, is clearly human (an early variety of Sapien), he is a male about a 10 years old with a brain size about 900 cc’s (clearly could hit 1000 to 1200 cc’s as an adult, which is fairly normative for many pre-teen humans), probably would have hit 5” 6’ tall as an adult. He actually is conceded by many to be very human from the neck down, has an established bridge indicating a projecting nose, and much more. The narrow spinal canal seems to have been an issue of debate. Yet even being small, it is still within the modern human range (albeit, at the bottom end of the range.)


Now I do not see the technical meaning of anagensis holding true outside of opinion only. By definition such a process necessitates phyletic transformation and I do not see any evidence or proof of that. When certain bacteria become anti-biotic resistant it remains the same type of bacteria not a new creature (speciation only produces variety). Adaptation on different levels within different types of creatures is simply a matter of how we are made or how we transmit genes. My daughter Sally is totally Cillan resistant but clearly she is not a new species.


IMHO many fossils of Erectus are just humans (not Java however). Albeit an early “Variety” of human, perhaps even one that died off. The eye socket and brow ridge regions are one such clue. On some of the skulls it is more pronounced on others less. Other fossils classified as Erectus are a variety of ape (long arms, bridgeless nose, flat small brain casings, etc.), and still others may be pieced together mixtures of unrelated remains. In the human relatives, emerging genetic possibilities eventually favored the variety we call modern human anatomically but that does not constitute a transition from ape-kind.

Of the five skulls found in Dmanisi, Georgia, two actually look as human as any modern, while the other three appear to more than likely be ape. Nothing demands they are among the same creatures just because they are found near to each other. These fossils are all generally associated with others from Africa and Asia (which if true could pose a problem for the “Regional Continuity” theory, though it is totally possible that in some species, and varieties within them, there is global continuity, while in others only a regional continuity…I believe it does not HAVE TO be one OR the other).

The editors of Archaeology Info: the meeting place of Arch and Evo, say “Those who see erectus as a modern human ancestor, either see the Asian specimens as a dead-end side branch, or see all the ergaster, heidelbergensis, and erectus specimens as belonging to Homo sapiens. This view has some validity in that these species are usually considered “chronospecies” … this is really a matter of semantics and differing ideologies.”(hence not established fact)


http://archaeologyinfo.com/homo-erectus/
 
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And what features make A-G clearly apes? Can these features be used to reliably sort apes from humans, or are some skeletons ambiguous even with those standards?

Based on what criteria?

What features would a real transitional have that these fossils are missing?
Still waiting on these criteria. It's kind of necessary if we are going to forward this conversation.
 
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Lacking any stated hard metrics for determining what is ape or human, will you humor me and just identify 3 more? I'm trying to piece together exactly what makes a skull look ape or human to you.

Ape or human for these 3?
Skull 1.jpgSkull 2.jpg Skull 3.jpg
 
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pshun2404

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Based on what criteria?

What features would a real transitional have that these fossils are missing?

It would not have any specific "transitionals" I would define (if that's even a word anywhere outside the imaginations of Evolutionary Biologists) since there are none...why would I list characteristics of a non-existent creature...this like demanding to see a semi evolved cell...
 
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Shemjaza

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It would not have any specific "transitionals" I would define (if that's even a word anywhere outside the imaginations of Evolutionary Biologists) since there are none...why would I list characteristics of a non-existent creature...this like demanding to see a semi evolved cell...
That's not the same thing. We have defined what we think a transitional would look like and we have a whole lot of them sitting around. Like those three skulls that suddenly need names before the "obvious" test can be made.

However when you respond with denial about transitional status, then people are justified in asking you what is wrong.

Incidentally, I read about a hypothesis for a "semi evolved cell", clusters of self reproducing molecules like DNA of RNA collecting in naturally occurring rock bubbles found around ocean vents. This could function as a mid point between loose molecules in the water and a self contained cell. No proof for it happening, but it's an idea.
 
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pshun2404

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That's not the same thing. We have defined what we think a transitional would look like and we have a whole lot of them sitting around.

Ah yes that is the clue! "WE" have defined what "WE THINK" a transitional would look like...so sure, obviously the "WE" would agree (consensus is not proof...the majority is often incorrect).

There is no naturally occurring DNA and no "self-replicating" RNA outside of living systems...Yes we have found a few strands of short chain RNA (some have hydrogen bonded in small sections and two samples found relative to meteors (but not sure these were not picked up)....

There are also no functional proteins found outside of living systems.
 
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Sure....name them...
I name them all transitional, but I'm more interested in if you actually have a system for determining what is ape or human or if you are just trying to pigeonhole obvious transitionals. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but if you can't determine what is and isn't human, I think we have to all accept that these are transitionals.
 
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