A Couple of Questions...

[Filia Mariae]

Before I ask my question, I'd just like to clarify that I am not looking for an argument or trying to be an instigator, I truly am asking out of curiouosity.

My first question is, why do you believe that some people are predestined for hell? I don't mean why as in "what are your Scriptural justifications," but rather, what reason do you believe God created people for if they are predestined for hell?

My second question is, do you believe it is possible to know whether or not you are one of the elect? Is someone's behavior (ie "works") indicative of their being elect or not? Or is it just anybody's guess?

Thank you.

 

[II Paradox II]

My first question is, why do you believe that some people are predestined for hell? I don't mean why as in "what are your Scriptural justifications," but rather, what reason do you believe God created people for if they are predestined for hell?

Because we believe the scriptures to teach such things. Personally, I think single predestination is correct (like Aquinas taught), not double, though I'm not sure the difference can really be justified logically so I believe it largely on emotional grounds (the argument offered by Aquinas onthis issue are less than convincing).

I honestly don't think the scriptures teach that salvation is ultimately predicated on man's will and decisions, but God's. A part of that equation is that God is in some sense either actively predestining men to hell or at least passing over them and not actively giving them salvific graces such that they would go to heaven.

My second question is, do you believe it is possible to know whether or not you are one of the elect? Is someone's behavior (ie "works") indicative of their being elect or not? Or is it just anybody's guess?

I would say not in an absolute sense, but with reasonable assurance. the elect are given grace to persevere and this can be seen in their life of obedience and true love for the Lord. If you are living a completely pagan lifestyle and rejecting God in your life, you're probably not among the elect. If you are, you can hve a reasonable asurance that God has elected you, though you must persevere to the end to be saved (not that the perseverence saves you, but that one who is saved will persevere).

ken

 

[Filia Mariae]

Because we believe the scriptures to teach such things. Personally, I think single predestination is correct (like Aquinas taught), not double, though I'm not sure the difference can really be justified logically so I believe it largely on emotional grounds (the argument offered by Aquinas onthis issue are less than convincing).

I honestly don't think the scriptures teach that salvation is ultimately predicated on man's will and decisions, but God's. A part of that equation is that God is in some sense either actively predestining men to hell or at least passing over them and not actively giving them salvific graces such that they would go to heaven.

I understand that the Calvinists believe that double predestination is supported by Scripture (otherwise they wouldn't ascribe to it ), but my question is what do you believe is God's reason for predestining some people to hell?

I would say not in an absolute sense, but with reasonable assurance. the elect are given grace to persevere and this can be seen in their life of obedience and true love for the Lord. If you are living a completely pagan lifestyle and rejecting God in your life, you're probably not among the elect. If you are, you can hve a reasonable asurance that God has elected you, though you must persevere to the end to be saved (not that the perseverence saves you, but that one who is saved will persevere).

So do you think that if someone desires to be among the elect, they are?

Thanks!

 

[BBAS 64]

Before I ask my question, I'd just like to clarify that I am not looking for an argument or trying to be an instigator, I truly am asking out of curiouosity.

My first question is, why do you believe that some people are predestined for hell? I don't mean why as in "what are your Scriptural justifications," but rather, what reason do you believe God created people for if they are predestined for hell?

My second question is, do you believe it is possible to know whether or not you are one of the elect? Is someone's behavior (ie "works") indicative of their being elect or not? Or is it just anybody's guess?

Thank you.

Good Day, Carly

You ask some hard question shere that will prevoke an purely man centered reply which is easy to do, but with holds the very nature of God. In response I will say in both instances that it is God who is copletely soverign in the choices he makes and is in no way dependant on my affirmation or my understanding. God has the abilty to share him self with those that are "his" and does so in ways that completes our relantionship with him.

For His Glory Alone!
Bill

 

[Bulldog]

I understand that the Calvinists believe that double predestination is supported by Scripture (otherwise they wouldn't ascribe to it ), but my question is what do you believe is God's reason for predestining some people to hell?

God has many attributes, amooung these being judgement, wrath, and even hate of sinners. (Psalms 5:5)

God is just so he gives the non-elect population what they desrvce. A better question might be: what is God's reasoning of predestining anyone to heaven? (since all desverve eternal punishment)

So do you think that if someone desires to be among the elect, they are?

Yes, but men will only desire to be elect if first chosen and regenerate. Many is too deep in sin to desire God without regeneration.

 

[II Paradox II]

I understand that the Calvinists believe that double predestination is supported by Scripture (otherwise they wouldn't ascribe to it ), but my question is what do you believe is God's reason for predestining some people to hell?

1) Personally I am a single predestinarian, not double. However, I have a strong suspicion that this is a distinction without difference, so I hold to it largely for emotional reasons.

2) For one, I am an infralapsarian, so I would say that God looks at all men as fallen, and elects some in His mercy. Ergo, the correct question would not be "why does God condemn some innocent men instead of others", but "why does God choose to have mercy on some guilty men instead of others". In line with this, all men are condemned on the basis of sin they have committed which God knows, and they are elect purely on the decree of God because of reasons He only begins to tell us (most of them are highly unflattering reasons such as our weakness and lack of virtue)

So do you think that if someone desires to be among the elect, they are?

God regenerates the heart and the heart longs after God. If someone desires to be among the elect by putting his faith in the Lord, he probably is. Very simply put, the best analogy is the good tree with good fruit and the bad tree with bad fruit. If God makes you a good tree, you will bear equivalent fruit.

ken

 

[theseed]

My first question is, why do you believe that some people are predestined for hell? I don't mean why as in "what are your Scriptural justifications," but rather, what reason do you believe God created people for if they are predestined for hell?

Only he knows, its a mystery (Rom. 9:1). We simply trust his wise counsel.

My second question is, do you believe it is possible to know whether or not you are one of the elect? Is someone's behavior (ie "works") indicative of their being elect or not? Or is it just anybody's guess?

The Fruit of the Spirit indicates who has a saving faith in Christ. And those believers have evidence of election--thier works validate thier faith (James 2). However, we don't know that somone is un-elect. We never know that.

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

I understand that the Calvinists believe that double predestination is supported by Scripture (otherwise they wouldn't ascribe to it ), but my question is what do you believe is God's reason for predestining some people to hell?

Not that I have much to add to these great replies, but I must reiterate that the question is why does God elect any?

This is answered in Ephesians 1:5,6
5 he predestined us [2] for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

It is nothing that God saw in any of His elect, but that He might manifest His glory in those whom He saves.

I have noticed that this question is always phrased, "Why does God not save some people." Rather than "Why does God save any people?" I think the reason for this is that most people, even devout, elect Christians do not have a thorough understanding of sin. We have a natural tendency to think of man is being good for the most part. We also have a natural tendency to want to make God like us, including His justice. However, as Isaiah says, His ways are not ours, and His thoughts are higher than ours. According to God's Holy Word, none are good. None are deserving of anything but God's wrath.

Romans 3:10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

So do you think that if someone desires to be among the elect, they are?

Thanks!

As the later part of Romans 3:11 says, no one seeks for God. But how can this be true, for I seek God, and others seek God. This verse must be put in its proper context.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

When you use a verse such as John 6:44 to give Romans 3:11 its proper context, you come to the following conclusion. Apart from God, no man will ever attempt to draw near to God. Therefore, those who desire a true salvific relationship with God are those whom God draws to them.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

All those whom God draws to Him are elect, and they will be raised at the last day. I think it may be a common misconception of this doctrine that people are clamoring to the Gates of Heaven and God has His angels standing guard over the gates with orders to only let in the elect. This is not the case.

 

[CCWoody]

My first question is, why do you believe that some people are predestined for hell? I don't mean why as in "what are your Scriptural justifications," but rather, what reason do you believe God created people for if they are predestined for hell?

God created man for His glory. And, even before He had spoken a single word of creation, having already resolved to create man in His own image and likeness, He determined that He would not have his creation thwart His purpose. Therefore, He created man anyway, with the full and certain knowledge that many of those created would glorify Him in the eyes of those whom He would have mercy by the example of His perfect justice in their destruction. We will know that the only difference between us and them was the Lord's own choice to have mercy upon us and it will heighten our own sense of gratitude.

In simpler words, God already knew before He created man that man would fall and even the very names of those who would never submit to Him. Yet, He created man anyway to the sure and certain end for which He created him, when He could have resolved to create man differently or not at all.

As a plain matter of logic, grant to the Augustinian Calvinist God's perfect Omnipotence to act and His perfect Omniscience before he acts, and we will win any doctrinal debate of Absolute Predestination, every time. This is why those who oppose us will ultimately seek to deny God either His Omniscience, Omnipotence, or both.

Jonathan Edwards:

When the saints in heaven shall look upon the damned in hell, it will serve to give them a greater sense of their own happiness, seeing how vastly different their case is from their own. The view of the doleful condition of the damned will make them the more prize their own blessedness. When they shall see how dreadful the anger of God is, it will make them the more prize his love. They will rejoice so much the more that they are not the objects of God's anger, but of his favor; that they are not the subjects of his dreadful wrath, but are treated as his children, are taken near to him, to dwell in the everlasting embraces of his love.

When they shall see the misery of the damned, it will give them a greater sense of the distinguishing grace and love of God to them, that God should from all eternity set his love on them, and make so great a difference between them and others who are of the same species with them, are no worse by nature than they, and have deserved no worse of God than they. When they shall look upon the misery of the damned, and consider how different their own state is from theirs, and that it is only free and sovereign grace that makes the difference, what a great sense will this give them of the wonderful grace of God to them! And how will it heighten their praises! With how much greater admiration and exultation of soul will they sing of the free and sovereign grace of God to them!

When they shall look upon the damned, and see their misery, how will heaven ring with the praises of God's justice towards the wicked, and his grace towards the saints! And with how much greater enlargement of heart will they praise Jesus Christ their Redeemer, that ever he was pleased to set his love upon them, his dying love! And that he should so distinguish them as to spill his blood, and make his soul an offering, to redeem them from that so great misery, and to bring them to such exceeding happiness!

​

My second question is, do you believe it is possible to know whether or not you are one of the elect? Is someone's behavior (ie "works") indicative of their being elect or not? Or is it just anybody's guess?

Thank you.

Sure, just as John promised us.

I think there are also sure signs that one is actually a self-decieved God hating tare. Such things would include the inability to receive doctrinal instruction and correction; substituting works for faith; placing sacerdotal works in place of faith (actually a very real Protestant problem); inability to perceive and repent of personal sin; false views of the Godhead; etc.

 

[frumanchu]

My second question is, do you believe it is possible to know whether or not you are one of the elect? Is someone's behavior (ie "works") indicative of their being elect or not? Or is it just anybody's guess?

I believe it is possible for a person to be assured that they are numbered among the elect. The Spirit bears witness together with our Spirit that we are children of God.

There are four types of people:

1. those who are not saved and know they are not saved
2. those who are saved but don't have personal assurance of their salvation
3. those who are not saved but believe they are
4. those who are saved and know they are saved

One has to understand also the difference between theological certainty and philosophical certainty. Nobody has philosophical certainty of their salvation. They also don't have philosophical certainty of the mortality of man, since the only way one can possess such certainty is posthumously

While there are surely some who fall into case number 3 above, the fact is that we can have personal assurance of our own salvation by means of the internal witness of the Spirit in and through them. Election in and of itself does not save, but election is unto salvation, so if we have assurance of our salvation then we have assurance of our election.

That being said, we cannot have the same assurance of others since we do not know their heart. We can make judgements based on the fruits we see, but they are nothing more than educated guesses. If we see someone who professes Christ but acts otherwise, there are Biblical instructions for how they should be dealt with.