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A conversation about unity.

The Liturgist

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And the word "Apostle" means "sent", so Barnabas was an Apostle, Acts 13:2-3. Junia was outstanding among the Apostles, Romans 16:7.

And they were members of the Seventy. Only St. Paul, who our Lord selected, and certain early Greek bishops like St. Dionysius the Aeropagite, were not connected with the early church, and they were not Apostles but episkopoi.

This is why we no longer use the title Apostle.

In Orthodoxy Apostolic Succession is not defined on the model of St. Augustine of Hippo but rather St. Cyprian of Carthage, who clearly said a heretic cannot pass Apostolic succession. Thus a bishop has valid Apostolic succession only if ordained normally by three bishops (in emergencies this has been waived) in apostolic succession from non-heretics. Thus Apostolic Succession could not flow through a Valentinian, Donatist, Paulician or Bogomil.

If some liberal churches continue to deprecate the value of the Trinity and the Incarnation (I recently was disgusted in March when an Anglican priest in the C of E claimed the story of the Annunciation - the Virgin Birth, was one lacking in relevance for modern congregations) and go the way of the Remonstrants, the church founded by Arminius which has since abandoned Trinitarianism as doctrine and instead has each new member write their own creed, then there will be no Apostolic Succession in those churches - it will have been forfeit according to St. Cyprian.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Except for Matthias. Who was appointed by the remaining eleven Apostles to replace Judas.
Not quite, Matthias was chosen by the Holy Spirit.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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That is called the Baptism of Desire, or in the case of the Baptism of Blood. It is inadvisable to delay baptism relying on that, especially for an adult (I don’t believe children will be penalized by their parents refusing to baptize them due to the errors of the Credobaptist movement opposed by our friends @Ain't Zwinglian @ViaCrucis and @Jipsah with such eloquence, but for an adult to delay baptism seems to contradict the Nicene Creed. Even the Quakers who did not engage in physical baptism believed they were being baptized spiritually and connected it to an ecclesiastical context.

Intentionally avoiding baptism or delaying it was a common vice in the early church due to a belief that one would not be forgiven for sins committed after baptism, which even affected Emperor Constantine, but it is clearly wrong, and it is rejected now for the same reason it was rejected then.

The person who has not received Baptism has not received the sacramental grace and has not been born again of water and the spirit. Baptism enables one to safely partake of the Eucharist and will also remove any demons that might be oppressing someone (in a liturgical church at least, since we include a prayer of exorcism in the liturgy).

I would also note that baptism like the Eucharist is extremely enjoyable, and is an example not of an unpleasant ritual but of Christ dispensing his grace to us in a way that gives us pleasure now and delivers us from death in the future. The sacraments, when done properly, are not drab rituals but are means of accessing a joy that is beyond description.

In my childhood, I was blessed to receive the Eucharist for the first time around age four (had I been an Orthodox I would have received it from infancy). I remember being amazed by how delicious it was I attempted at home to recreate the taste using the exact same bread and juice without success. I later discovered that even in rites where the Eucharist is formulated with slightly different matter, for example unleavened bread in the case of the Roman church or in the case of the Orthodox, our liturgical rites which usually use fermented bread except for the Armenian Apostolic Church among the Orientals, the surreal taste is still the same - it is because I am not consuming ordinary bread and wine, but the very Body and Blood of Christ our God.

Thus, what I don’t understand about the anti-sacramental position is why people would object to doing what is both scripturally commanded by Christ of all Christians in the case of Baptism and the Eucharist (with limited exceptions for those unable to be baptized before dying, for example of martyrdom), and which is at least in the liturgical churches, extremely pleasurable.

What is the logic of “Oh, let’s not spend an hour or two listening to the most beautiful music with the most beautiful words ever written before experiencing pleasure given by God as a gift directly analogous to the nuptial bliss of Holy Matrimony”? It baffles me that anyone would wish to deprive themselves from that.
In our Synod, one of our Parishes in Oakville called, and recently installed, a former Latvian Priest (Pastor) in their Parish. He had been serving the Lutheran Church of Australia, until they voted to ordain women. He was instrumental in organizing the new confessional Synod there, (which we in LCC also support and are in fellowship with). LCMS is now in fellowship with the Mission Province of Sweden (so we also are in defacto fellowship, although no formal declaration of fellowship has taken place with LCC and MPS. We have, however, 4 years ago, at our Synod Convention in Edmonton Alberta, Canada declared fellowship with the Mission Diocese of Finland (Parishes in Lapland, Iceland, and Israel). They are also in fellowship with the Ingrian Lutheran Church (Russia and Siberia, who have a parish in Turkey).

Unity does not just happen, it is, as the article says, "Our common faith and the bearing of a shared yoke is a wondrous matter. Our Diocesan Assembly met in Helsinki on 11 November 2017 where our stand on the ecclesiastical fellowship with the LCC was brought forward for due consideration and discussion. The resolution to sign this agreement on full ecclesiastical relations was reached . We rejoice in this outcome."

This is what true unity looks like IMO:
 
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ARBITER01

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Not quite, Matthias was chosen by the Holy Spirit.

Incorrect. Only The Lord Jesus gives out ministries/offices. It is His body,...

Act 1:2 until the day on which He was taken up; through holy spirit -directing~ the apostles whom He chooses~,

Paul was a chosen who came into direct contact with The Lord Jesus in His risen state. Paul was still directly hand-picked by Jesus as an Apostle like the 12.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Incorrect. Only The Lord Jesus gives out ministries/offices. It is His body,...

Act 1:2 until the day on which He was taken up; through holy spirit -directing~ the apostles whom He chooses~,

Paul was a chosen who came into direct contact with The Lord Jesus in His risen state. Paul was still directly hand-picked by Jesus as an Apostle like the 12.
It is disappointing to see so little understanding of the scriptures in your reply.

Matthias was chosen to replace Judas Iscariot as one of the twelve apostles following Judas’s betrayal and death, in a process marked by prayerful discernment and scriptural fulfilment. After Peter addressed the gathered believers—about 120 in number—he cited the Psalms: “May another take his place of leadership” (Acts 1:20), affirming the need to restore the apostolic number. Two men were nominated, Joseph called Barsabbas and Matthias, both of whom had accompanied Jesus throughout His ministry. The apostles then prayed, saying, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen” (Acts 1:24), and cast lots to determine the outcome. The lot fell to Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles, signifying divine approval and the continuation of apostolic witness.
 
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ARBITER01

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It is disappointing to see so little understanding of the scriptures in your reply.

Matthias was chosen to replace Judas Iscariot as one of the twelve apostles following Judas’s betrayal and death, in a process marked by prayerful discernment and scriptural fulfilment. After Peter addressed the gathered believers—about 120 in number—he cited the Psalms: “May another take his place of leadership” (Acts 1:20), affirming the need to restore the apostolic number. Two men were nominated, Joseph called Barsabbas and Matthias, both of whom had accompanied Jesus throughout His ministry. The apostles then prayed, saying, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen” (Acts 1:24), and cast lots to determine the outcome. The lot fell to Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles, signifying divine approval and the continuation of apostolic witness.

Sorry, you're wrong.

It is only Jesus Who chooses offices and ministries for His body, I quoted the scripture section showing you that. You have a misunderstanding or you are relying too much on church teaching instead of reading your bible.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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It is disappointing to see so little understanding of the scriptures in your reply.

Matthias was chosen to replace Judas Iscariot as one of the twelve apostles following Judas’s betrayal and death, in a process marked by prayerful discernment and scriptural fulfilment. After Peter addressed the gathered believers—about 120 in number—he cited the Psalms: “May another take his place of leadership” (Acts 1:20), affirming the need to restore the apostolic number. Two men were nominated, Joseph called Barsabbas and Matthias, both of whom had accompanied Jesus throughout His ministry. The apostles then prayed, saying, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen” (Acts 1:24), and cast lots to determine the outcome. The lot fell to Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles, signifying divine approval and the continuation of apostolic witness.
100%!!!
 
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The Liturgist

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Matthias was chosen to replace Judas Iscariot as one of the twelve apostles following Judas’s betrayal and death, in a process marked by prayerful discernment and scriptural fulfilment. After Peter addressed the gathered believers—about 120 in number—he cited the Psalms: “May another take his place of leadership” (Acts 1:20), affirming the need to restore the apostolic number. Two men were nominated, Joseph called Barsabbas and Matthias, both of whom had accompanied Jesus throughout His ministry. The apostles then prayed, saying, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen” (Acts 1:24), and cast lots to determine the outcome. The lot fell to Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles, signifying divine approval and the continuation of apostolic witness.

That’s correct, and we have the ordination of the Seven Deacons as well, who were ordained by the Twelve including St. Matthias the Apostle (not to be confused with St. Matthew, who was one of the eleven). The Seven Deacons included St. Stephen the Protomartyr, St. Philip the Deacon (not to be confused with St. Philip the Apostle), and on the other hand, Nicolas the heresiarch (not to be confused with the fourth century bishop, confessor, philanthropist and wonderworker St. Nicholas of Myra, who along with St. Basil the Great is one of the two figures upon which the secular “Santa Claus” is based.

I recall the first time I encountered an evangelical who asked me where ordination was found in the Bible and I was baffled - I told him to look in Acts for clear examples; I regret not having mentioned 1 Timothy as well, since 1 Timothy addresses requirements for ordination, although 1 Timothy is commonly misread as requiring episkopoi to be married when in fact it merely requires them to not be polygamists or remarried widowers.

Nicolas was the founder of the Nicolaitan sect, who fell under the influence of Simon Magus and that group, but Nicolaitanism was so much worse, but as much as Nicolas was a failure as a clergyman (and his downfall, like that of Judas, happened after his ordination - good people can turn to evil; my main criticism of some forms of Fundamentalist Calvinism is the idea that either evil people will always be evil and cannot repent and conversely the idea that repentence doesn’t matter because everyone is evil, and since we are of the elect, we can sin (I used to think this is what Martin Luther had meant by “sin boldly” but later @MarkRohfrietsch explained to me how this was not a license to sin - indeed Luther and Calvin did believe that the faithful through grace could repent, and I think @hedrick for telling me this about Calvinism, since even as a Congregationalist I had never been a true Calvinist; my view at the time, which I later realized was not incompatible with Patristic synergism, is that since God knows who will ultimately win the race and who will lose, that in that respect the universe is deterministic and one can speak of an Elect, but from our perspective, we at least have the appearance of free will and our actions matter, whether we are monergists like my Lutheran friends or synergists like the Orthodox, since Christ has said “by their fruits ye shall know them” and explained the virtues that are the fruits of faith, and what St. James the Just wrote in his Epistle, that faith without works is dead, does not contradict sola fide as understood by Luther, Calvin, Cranmer and Wesley, who believed that a living faith would produce good works, whereas in the case of the monergists like Luther and Calvin, a reprobate, with a dead faith, would continue to sin rather than repenting.

But all agree that God desires not the death of a sinner but that he should turn from his wickedness and live, a point the Anglicans do a good job of making in the Book of Common Prayer (which is why my ltiurgical group completed in 2023, but has not yet released, a new BCP edition intended for use by continuing Anglicans, Western Rite Orthodox, and perhaps with modifications by the Anglican Ordinariates in the RCC and the Lutherans, since it is public domain, but basically it is an edition of the BCP based on the 1928 American book, but with the best parts of other editions included (I think the very best of the traditional BCP editions was the 1929 Scottish book, and the 1979 American book could have been the best except for the problems of the three year lectionary, which it tried to mitigate, and the subtle inroads of liberalism, but the 1979 book is in the public domain and also among the Episcopalians it is allowed to fix the other flaw of the 1979 book - the use of the inaccurate translations of the initial English release of the Novus Ordo Missae, which was replaced in 2010 by a new translation at the order of Pope Benedict XVI, which corrected the worst errors such as replacing the phrase “and also with you” with “and with your spirit” which is the phrase found in all ancient liturgical texts, and ICEL’s original translation rendering et cum spiritu tuo as “and also with you” instead of “and with your spirit” was one of those errors which I feel was sufficiently problematic that it contributed to the increase in aliturgical Christianity.

It is worth remembering that before the the 1969 revision of the Roman mass, and the subsequent duplication of the style of the English translation by the English speaking Protestant churches, and the implementation of other aspects of the Novus Ordo by most major Protestant churches regardless of language, that the majority of churches were either liturgical, or sufficiently formal and traditional in their worship so that they would be regarded in comparison with the Non-Denominational churches, Evangelical churches and Megachurches of the present with their praise and worship music, etc, as “liturgical.” Indeed the primary difference between a typical Baptist church and a typical Methodist church was the practice of credobaptism exclusively in the former, along with a slightly shorter service, about 45-50 minutes rather than 75-90 minutes, with fewer hymns and more preaching, but in both cases you would typically have hymns in the format of a chorale accompanied by the organ, except in the minority of Baptist churches which preferred an a capella approach, in some cases using exclusive psalmody, and in some cases using various interesting forms of hymnody of English language origin, such as “lining out” the Psalter or square note singing, which are reminscent of the ancient Znamenny Chant historically used by Russian and Ukrainian Christians.
 
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The Liturgist

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Sorry, you're wrong.

It is only Jesus Who chooses offices and ministries for His body, I quoted the scripture section showing you that. You have a misunderstanding or you are relying too much on church teaching instead of reading your bible.

I have a feeling there is a mutual misunderstanding here. Obviously I am assuming you do not deny the canonicity of Acts and 1 Timothy, and likewise I would assume that you are not accusing the Apostles of having sinned in ordaining St. Matthias or the Seven Deacons, particularly when one of the Seven Deacons, St. Stephen, became the first Christian to win a crown of martyrdom, being killed by a group of non-believing Jews after confessing Christ to them.

Christ our True God has promised “He who confesses me before men, I will confess before the father.”

So, perhaps, if I may, what your point is, is that Jesus Christ selects those who will serve in His Church, and those people who he wishes to serve he motivates to serve, since the Seven Deacons and St. Matthias were chosen from among those eager to serve, and indeed St. Matthias was selected through the casting of lots so that Christ our True God would have the final say.*

If this is your point, that ultimately Christ draws to him those who should minister for him, then there is no disagreement. Traditional churches call the process of prayer and study to try to ascertain whether one has a genuine vocation from God or rather has a human ambition which differs from God’s plan for us, to be that of discerning our vocation. For some of us are called to be Pastors of His flock and others are called to serve God in other ways. For example, as medical doctors or as those who commit themselves to charity, or those who farm or those who sail upon the seas or those who protect others as police or firemen or those who have the sacred vocation of motherhood, among other vocations.

Indeed even within the Christian Church itself there are different kinds of vocations - God does not just need Pastors, but Deacons whose job it is to help serve the faithful (the word Deacon is an Anglicization of a Greek word meaning servant), and there are those called to be virgins instead of marriage, who live a life of prayer for God, and there are those who sing in the choir, those who design the buildings in which the congregations of the Church meet, those who study the Scriptures and help educate the pastors and the laity, and there are those blessed with certain spiritual gifts, although we Orthodox, while not cessationist, do not agree with Pentecostals or Charismatics about what those gifts look like in practice or who is likely to receive such a charism.

But the core idea, that being that it is Christ who calls us to serve Him, and in that respect he selects those who will be ordained, is a common one.

While it is possible you are arguing something else, I would urge you to study my post closely to see to what extent it aligns with your beliefs, rather than dismissing it out of hand because of those aspects where our faith differs on terminology, for example my use of the word saint to refer to the Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles and those Confessors and Martyrs such as St. Nicholas of Myra or St. Stephen the Protomartyr who were tortured for, or who gave their life for Christ and who we can thus say are alive in Heaven, like St. Elijah the Prophet and St. Moses, who appeared at the Transfiguration, and also those whom Christ has saved of His initiaive, such as the Good Thief, and of course the Blessed Virgin Mary. We might disagree on how this word is to be used, but this disagreement does not change the semantics of my argument. So if you read my argument ignoring those aspects I feel compelled by piety to include, such as referring to the Apostles as saints, and despite this nominal difference being disregarded, there still remains a differnece of semantics, and of meaning - Well, in that cases you have several of us very curious as to your interpretation of Acts and 1 Timothy.


*at that point God in the person of the Holy Spirit, our comforter and paraclete, had not descended, but our Savior had ascended, and the Holy Apostles were waiting for the Holy Spirit, who would come on the Feast of Weeks, which in the Greek Bible is called Pentecost (and among those Greek-speaking Jews among the Twelve and the Seventy) and which in Hebrew is known as Shavuot.

This Scriptural, Apostolic practice of using lots to decide between equally qualified candidates continues to be used by the Coptic Orthodox to select the bishop who presides over their Holy Synod, who has the title Papem but who does not have supreme authority over the other bishops and indeed cannot celebrate the liturgy in their dioceses without their permission, nor is he regarded as infallible (in the sixth century Roman church adopted the title Papem, already in use by the church in Alexandria since the third century).
 
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ARBITER01

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Lol,... people can't read I guess,....ok, let's try this once,....

Act 1:1 The first account, indeed, I make~, O Theophilus, concerning all which •Jesus begins~ both to |do and to |teach,
Act 1:2 until the day on which He was taken up; through holy spirit -directing~ the apostles whom He chooses~,

Act 1:24 And -praying~, they say, "Thou/, Lord, Knower of all hearts, indicate one whom Thou choosest~, out of these •two
Act 1:25 to |take the place of this •dispensation and apostleship, from which Judas transgressed, to be gone into his •own •place."



The Lord in this case is The Lord Jesus,.... the knower of all hearts. It is the body of "Christ" hence, Jesus chooses what ministries and offices His disciples will get in that body of His.

I'm not going to put a whole lot into this if people can't understand this easy part of the scriptures.
 
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The Liturgist

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. It is His body,...

This is true - that the Church is the Body of Christ is an essential part of the Orthodox doctrine. We are grafted onto that Body as a result of our faith, and for us, the sacrament of Baptism is the means by which we believe our union with the Body of Christ is completed. And we call the Eucharist, the Lord’s Supper, Holy Communion, because in the Eucharist we are in communion with the entire Body of Christ.

This is also why @Hentenza the Orthodox do not admit anyone to the Eucharist - because while we know where the Body of Christ is, we do not know where it is not, and because if we allowed someone who might not be a member of the Body of Christ to partake, it could harm them and we would be held accountable, as I explained to you before. Once we know a person or church is part of the Body of Christ, then reception of the Eucharist becomes possible.

For example, there was a long schism between the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox, with the EO accusing the OO of monophysitism, and the OOs accusing the EO of Nestorianism. Both were in error, and came to recognize this at times, and there were periods of close cooperation. We venerate some people who were definitely Oriental Orthodox as saints, such as St. Theodora, and likewise we venerate a member of the Church of the East, St. Isaac the Syrian, which is a group that at one time was Nestorian but by the time of St. Isaac no longer used his flawed Christology. Thus, the rule has normally been, according to our canons, even when we were not sure of the status of those churches, that their members could be received by confession rather than chrismation or baptism (Roman Catholics and Protestants are usually chrismated, with some exceptions which I will mention).

However at other times our shared faith has been recognized. There were periods of communion with OO churches in the past, and at present this is on an unprecedented scale - in 1991 the Antiochian Orthodox and Syriac Orthodox, the main EO and OO jurisdictions in Syria, Iraq, India, Turkey (the eastern part only in the case of Antiochians for the western part is under Constantinople) Lebanon and Iran (most Antiochians are in Syria and Lebanon only these days, along with emigres who live in Qatar, cities in the United Arab Emirates like Dubai and Abu Dhabi, and also Kuwait, Bahrain and Oman, that is to say, those Gulf States which are tolerant of Christians, unlike the Saudis or Yemenis, whereas the Syriac Orthodox have indigenous populations throughout the entire region and also are present in Jerusalem and Bethlehem at the Holy Sepulchre and the other major sites of pilgrimage, ahd the most likely location of the Cenacle is a Syriac Orthodox monastery*. These two churches recognized each other’s Orthodoxy and entered into a relationship where members of either church can receive the Eucharist in the other, marry members of the other, and indeed one cannot, in the Middle East, convert between the two churches, since this would violate the principle of trust by encouraging a situation where one began to try to encroach upon the other. A similar agreement was then achieved between the Coptic Orthodox Christians of Egypt and the Alexandrian Greek Orthodox.

But even outside of this there have been examples of recognition, now that the knowledge of Oriental Orthodox orthodoxy exists - for example, St. Catharine’s Monastery in Sinai is known for giving the Eucharist to Coptic Orthodox pilgrims, all the major Eastern Orthodox churches had memorial services in 2015 for the victims of the Armenian Genocide (which was the largest in terms of victims of three concurrent genocides launched by the Turks against Christians, the other victims being the Suroye, the ethnic group of the Syriac Orthodox and the Church of the East, also known as Assyrians or Aramaeans or Chaldeans, and the Pontic Greeks. Of the three, the Armenians suffered the highest number of casualties, the Suroye suffered the highest percentage loss of their population, and the Pontic Greeks, due to a population exchange with Greece in which Turkey forced Greece to deport its Muslims to Turkey and in return the Turks would permit the Greeks to leave their ancestral homelands in Asia Minor for the western half of the central region of historic Greek lands under the Kingdom of Greece, were the most completely eradicated from Turkey, in that there are almost no Greek Orthodox churches outside of those in Istanbul in the Phanar (the Phanariot Greeks were allowed to remain, because Turkey recognized the geopolitical benefits of being the country that was home to the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the seniormost Orthodox bishop, whose Patriarch does not include all of Greece but does include all areas not under the Archbishop of Athens, that is to say, those lands added to the Kingdom of Greece after the 1812 revolution, for example, Thessaloniki, Crete and most of the Greek islands, and also most importantly, Mount Athos.

Indeed even ROCOR, known for being one of the most traditional Orthodox denominations, is known for having given the Eucharist to Copts in Canada in the 2000s while the Copts in that city were working to organize a parish of their own. Likewise ROCOR recognized some Anglican priests, and received them without requiring them to be Chrismated and re-ordained, a process known as Vesting, which normally only happened to Roman Catholic clergy wishing to convert, and at that, mainly to Eastern Catholic clergy (and also of course to clergy from the OO and Assyrian churches).

Unfortunately, there are those opposed to the reunion between the OO and the EO, just as there are those who want us to have nothing to do with Roman Catholics (and on the other side also). The Old Calendarists, a schismatic group, tries to promote the idea that the Orthodox should not attempt to unite other Christians with us through ecumenical dialogue, by falsely claiming that ecumenical reconciliation is inherently syncretic (this is not the case - with regards to the OO it was realized their faith was the same as ours, and indeed substantial parts of the EO liturgy were written by Oriental Orthodox, such as the hymn Ho Monogenes, and conversely, many parts of the OO liturgy are of EO origin, having been written by St. Romanos the Melodist and St. John of Damascus. And both churches share large parts of the liturgy which either predate the schism or which do not, but no one knows who wrote it, for example, Holy Unction, tne liturgy for consecrating oil for the annointing of the sick and the fasting (which is also used as a blessing for those who are sick).

This is my favorite liturgy in fact, because i love its structure: it consists of seven, or in the case of the Syriac Orthodox, five, sets of prayers and Scripture lessons, each section having an Epistle and a Gospel, and there are Psalms included and typically after each prayer one of five or seven lamps set out in the shape of a cross containing the oil being consecrated, or a wick into one bowl containing all of the oil being consecrated, is lit. Additionally we will do this liturgy with seven Presbyters. Insofar as the use of oil to annoint the sick and the fasting is directed in the Epistle of James and the Gospels directly, this is a service that is scripturally uimpeachable, and also lacks the characteristics of the Extreme Unction service that troubled Martin Luther (and I would note that St. James did not say only the dying should be annointed with oil, but that was at the time the practice in the Western church, but since then Rome and the Protestants have greatly improved their services for unction, but I still prefer the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox form of the liturgy.

*On this point other location favored by the Crusaders, which is home to a ruined Gothic church, I strongly believe is the Tomb of David, so I agree with the Jews in that respect; the Muslim claim to it is invalid - there should be a church there since Christ is the Root of Jesse, directly descended from St. David the King, Prophet and Psalmist and his son St. Solomon, on the side of His mother obviously, since on His fathers side he is descended from no one, for God the Father is unoriginate, and Christ is begotten of Him before all ages, begotten, not made, and of one essence with His Father and with God the Holy Spirit; very God of very God, who became Man for our salvation. Thus I favor restoring the gothic church but as a church dedicated to St. David. But there is no reason not to allow the Jews to pray in our churches dedicated to those who they also venerate, and indeed it might move those who have not already embraced Christ to do so (the Syriac Orthodox and Antiochian Orthodox are largely of Jewish descent, in both India and the Middle East, the Mar Thoma Christians in India being descended both from the Kochin Jews who settled in Malankara in the 2nd century BC, and converts from Hindu paganism. Indeed St. Thomas the Apostle received the crown of martyrdom in 53 AD when the enraged Maharajah of Kerala threw a javelin at him. The Ethiopians and Eritreans, also Oriental Orthodox, are almost entirely descended at least in part from Jews, from the Beta Israel, and there are still around 3,000 Jews in Ethiopia, the rest having migrated to Israel in the 1970s after Emperor Haile Selassie was martyred by the Derg communist regime for refusing to denounce the Christian religion - for this he was strangled. Thus the Ethiopians are among those Christians blessed to have received crowns of martyrdom for confessing Christ to both Communists and Muslims, which also include the Albanians, Hungarians, Carpatho-Rusyns, Moldovans, Russians, Ukrainians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Serbians, Macedonians, Croatians, Slovenians, Montenegrins, all of whom were ruled by the Turks or in the case of parts of Russia and Ukraine, by Muslim hordes for a brief period, particularly in Ukraine, and in the case of Russia also by those in Checnya and Dagestan, and the Armenians and Georgians.
 
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Hentenza

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This is true - that the Church is the Body of Christ is an essential part of the Orthodox doctrine. We are grafted onto that Body as a result of our faith, and for us, the sacrament of Baptism is the means by which we believe our union with the Body of Christ is completed. And we call the Eucharist, the Lord’s Supper, Holy Communion, because in the Eucharist we are in communion with the entire Body of Christ.

This is also why @Hentenza the Orthodox do not admit anyone to the Eucharist - because while we know where the Body of Christ is, we do not know where it is not, and because if we allowed someone who might not be a member of the Body of Christ to partake, it could harm them and we would be held accountable, as I explained to you before. Once we know a person or church is part of the Body of Christ, then reception of the Eucharist becomes possible.
Quite frankly my brother you can’t even tell who is part of the body even in the members of your church. All churches have those that profess to be but are not in the heart. Only God sees the person‘s true faith. Only God can answer your query. Until then we, as the body of Christ, are commanded to teach and help those with a weaker faith and to welcome the stranger. And if that stranger professes his/her faith for the Lord then neither your church nor mine are in any position to call them a liar by omission.
 
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The Liturgist

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Quite frankly my brother you can’t even tell who is part of the body even in the members of your church.

While someone could lie, we can take reasonable precautions; we can’t don’t what their spiritual health is, but at least we know we’re admitting to the Eucharist someone who ostensibly believes, or was taught to believe, and is supposed to believe, and has been taught not to receive if they cease to believe, in the Incarnation, the Trinity and the Real Presence (since we believe partaking of our Eucharist not discerning the Body and Blood would be extremely dangerous). Likewise members of the LCMS know that a member of the Missouri Synod believes or should believe in the Nicene Creed and the Real Presence. And in both cases, that Orthodox, Catholic and Lutheran members believe in other doctrines that we believe are important, most of which the three churches agree on, disagreeing on only a few, for example, the role of the Bishop of Rome or the issue of monergism (but enough to where we are not yet in full communion with each other; this will take time).

Additionally in the Orthodox Church, many churches take the added precaution of requiring members to attend the sacrament of reconciliation, also known as auricular confession, before the Eucharist. Likewise, Orthodox, Lutherans and Anglicans include a congregational confiteor, where the whole congression prays for forgiveness of their sins (separately from auricular confession).

Auricular confession in the Orthodox Church is something I love, because our clergy are not required to issue penances, and through that sacrament I have been assisted with a great many thing. For example, I no longer have what used to be a horrible fear and revulsion towards hearses. I now regard hearses as, for the most part, beautiful vehicles that we use to transport our loved ones to the place where their bodies will repose until it is time for the Resurrection. I only have a dislike of hearses that are tacky or grotesque in their appearance (recently I saw a hearse being exhibited at a funeral trade show that was disturbing; whoever designed it was sick, I think, but that is another matter). Many other assistances have been provided to me through this means of grace. So requiring it before partaking of the Eucharist is a good idea, and indeed the churches that do require it ensure there is time for this even for people unable to attend the Vigils the night before (which is the usual time), by offering the liturgy during the reading of Terce and Sext.

What all of this amounts to is that we take reasonable precautions. From the parable of the talents, it is clear Christ desires us to be responsible and will hold us to account, and while we confess to being unprofitable servants, we try; we make a best-faith effort to ensure that everyone receiving the Eucharist is a part of the Body of Christ in a proper disposition to receive the Sacrament.

All churches have those that profess to be but are not in the heart

In the Orthodox Church, unlike in some other denominations, no one is ever pressured into receiving the Eucharist (in some Roman Catholic parishes and some Anglican parishes, among others, people who sit out the Eucharist experience peer pressure not to, even if they have a good reason to not partake, but one will never experience this in the Orthodox Church.

I particularly like how the Syriac Orthodox arrange this at some parishes and cathedrals - they often distribute the Eucharist at the very end of the liturgy, after the dismissal, while the hymn Haw Nurone is sung, from the right or liturgical south side of the altar, while who have partaken or are not partaking will exit to the left or liturgical North side of the altar, collecting antidoron (the blessed bread, which is not the consecrated Body of Christ as I explained earlier but rather was historically given as a blessing to help attendees get home, and is a sacramental, like holy water, but not the sacrament itself) on the way out.

We don’t believe in casual communion.

Thus if someone doesn’t believe, and presents themselves for the Eucharist, its on them, since we have taken all reasonable precautions to ensure that those who have received the Eucharist are among us.

Additionally I would add if a non-Orthodox tried to partake of the Eucharist they would probably not be able to do so as their identity would easily be discernable. And they would not likely even be rebuked but assisted; the assumption would be they had approached in error and were confused, and they would be graciously shown to the antidoron. I’m not going to explain exactly why this is because I don’t want to empower people to approach our Eucharist without authorization, but suffice it to say, we are careful (and additionally some of our priests can discern someone approaching with ill intent). Unlike the Roman Catholics, all Orthodox priests are authorized to repulse someone from the sacrament, so instances of our Eucharist being stolen, for example, by those who engage in the occult, are I would say unheard of, for I am not aware of any instance where it has happened.

That said I have no personal objection to the Assyrian Church of the East’s approach, which is to allow anyone who believes in the real presence and the Nicene Creed to partake. There is frequent intercommunion between the Assyrian Church of the East and the Chaldaen Catholics due to the situation on the ground in Iraq where nearly all Chaldeans live and also the majority of Assyrians (Chaldeans are one of the largest of the seven Assyrian tribes historically associated with the Church of the East, which unlike the others wound up mainly speaking Arabic instead of Aramaic, and the Roman Catholics persuaded most Chaldeans to join the Chaldean Catholic Church, which was an archdiocese of the Church of the East which broke away from the rest and entered into communion with Rome). Thus there are areas which are predominantly Syriac Orthodox, areas which are predominantly Church of the East, and areas that are predominantly Chaldean Catholic.

Likewise, in Turkey, the Syriac Orthodox will give the Eucharist to Roman Catholics at their parish in Constantinople, because the nearest Catholic church is some distance away, and Catholics will always give the Eucharist to any Orthodox or Assyrian Christian disposed to receive it, and other sacraments as well.

So essentially where we are now is in the process of establishing trust with the Roman Catholics to where we can reciprocate their offer of what they call Eucharistic hospitality, just as we presently do in the case of relations between the Antiochians and Syriac Orthodox and the Copts and Alexandrian Greek Orthodox.
 
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Dan Perez

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Acts 9:17 records that Ananias laid hands on Saul (Paul) after his Damascus Road conversion.
Acts 13:3 describes the Church at Antioch laying hands on Paul and Barnabas before sending them on mission
And he laid hands on. Paul so that mightiest receive the Holy Spirit. and was in. the Singular , mean

it happened to Paul ONE TIME !!

DAN P
 
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Carl Emerson

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It is disappointing to see so little understanding of the scriptures in your reply.

Matthias was chosen to replace Judas Iscariot as one of the twelve apostles following Judas’s betrayal and death, in a process marked by prayerful discernment and scriptural fulfilment. After Peter addressed the gathered believers—about 120 in number—he cited the Psalms: “May another take his place of leadership” (Acts 1:20), affirming the need to restore the apostolic number. Two men were nominated, Joseph called Barsabbas and Matthias, both of whom had accompanied Jesus throughout His ministry. The apostles then prayed, saying, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen” (Acts 1:24), and cast lots to determine the outcome. The lot fell to Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles, signifying divine approval and the continuation of apostolic witness.

Can I suggest the casting of lots belongs to the Old Covenant now that we have the Holy Spirit in residence within -the corporate agreement in mutual submission is the rightful source of guidance in such circumstances.

As Paul said more than once "It seemed good to us and the Holy Spirit"

The early church being predominantly Jewish leaned on old covenant practice before learning the ropes of the New Covenant Spiritual dynamic. Ironically Paul - the most Jewish, was a prime mover in this journey.

So I see Mathias as a flawed choice that leaned on an inappropriate practice.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Well, no. Apostles are appointed by Jesus Christ, as was the case with the twelve and with saint Paul. That is the point, isn't it?

From my understanding the RC church claims legitimacy partly by claiming apostolic succession.

As the @The Liturgist said. "a bishop has valid Apostolic succession only if ordained normally by three bishops

I am simply pointing out that we see no record of the apostles appointing Paul.

This being the case - added to the comment Jesus made that He can raise up believers from stones (Peter...?)

Then it never was to be up to the disciples to appoint leadership - they acted in presumption and didn't wait for God to choose. He chose Paul without their involvement.

This begs the question of whether He still does this today regardless of traditional practice.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Can I suggest the casting of lots belongs to the Old Covenant now that we have the Holy Spirit in residence within -the corporate agreement in mutual submission is the rightful source of guidance in such circumstances.

As Paul said more than once "It seemed good to us and the Holy Spirit"

The early church being predominantly Jewish leaned on old covenant practice before learning the ropes of the New Covenant Spiritual dynamic. Ironically Paul - the most Jewish, was a prime mover in this journey.

So I see Mathias as a flawed choice that leaned on an inappropriate practice.
Acts chapter one is post resurrection New Testament times, is it not? And why is it that you are so willing to correct the twelve apostles and the holy scriptures with your opinion on the legitimacy of casting lots after prayer for Divine guidance? Surely the apostles were competent to pray and receive from God the guidance for which they petitioned God?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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From my understanding the RC church claims legitimacy partly by claiming apostolic succession.

As the @The Liturgist said. "a bishop has valid Apostolic succession only if ordained normally by three bishops

I am simply pointing out that we see no record of the apostles appointing Paul.
Saint Paul was not a successor to any of the twelve apostles, he was appointed by Jesus on the road to Damascus and confirmed in his appointment by Ananias in Damascus. Do you read these passages with filters over your eyes?
This being the case - added to the comment Jesus made that He can raise up believers from stones (Peter...?)

Then it never was to be up to the disciples to appoint leadership - they acted in presumption and didn't wait for God to choose. He chose Paul without their involvement.
 
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Hentenza

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While someone could lie, we can take reasonable precautions; we can’t don’t what their spiritual health is, but at least we know we’re admitting to the Eucharist someone who ostensibly believes, or was taught to believe, and is supposed to believe, and has been taught not to receive if they cease to believe, in the Incarnation, the Trinity and the Real Presence (since we believe partaking of our Eucharist not discerning the Body and Blood would be extremely dangerous). Likewise members of the LCMS know that a member of the Missouri Synod believes or should believe in the Nicene Creed and the Real Presence. And in both cases, that Orthodox, Catholic and Lutheran members believe in other doctrines that we believe are important, most of which the three churches agree on, disagreeing on only a few, for example, the role of the Bishop of Rome or the issue of monergism (but enough to where we are not yet in full communion with each other; this will take time).

Additionally in the Orthodox Church, many churches take the added precaution of requiring members to attend the sacrament of reconciliation, also known as auricular confession, before the Eucharist. Likewise, Orthodox, Lutherans and Anglicans include a congregational confiteor, where the whole congression prays for forgiveness of their sins (separately from auricular confession).

Auricular confession in the Orthodox Church is something I love, because our clergy are not required to issue penances, and through that sacrament I have been assisted with a great many thing. For example, I no longer have what used to be a horrible fear and revulsion towards hearses. I now regard hearses as, for the most part, beautiful vehicles that we use to transport our loved ones to the place where their bodies will repose until it is time for the Resurrection. I only have a dislike of hearses that are tacky or grotesque in their appearance (recently I saw a hearse being exhibited at a funeral trade show that was disturbing; whoever designed it was sick, I think, but that is another matter). Many other assistances have been provided to me through this means of grace. So requiring it before partaking of the Eucharist is a good idea, and indeed the churches that do require it ensure there is time for this even for people unable to attend the Vigils the night before (which is the usual time), by offering the liturgy during the reading of Terce and Sext.

What all of this amounts to is that we take reasonable precautions. From the parable of the talents, it is clear Christ desires us to be responsible and will hold us to account, and while we confess to being unprofitable servants, we try; we make a best-faith effort to ensure that everyone receiving the Eucharist is a part of the Body of Christ in a proper disposition to receive the Sacrament.
Sorry my brother but there is no way for you to know someone’s heart so all these words mean absolutely nothing. I noticed that you did not addres the stranger. I’m not surprised. Historically given the kinds of government that your church was under your church grew inwardly rather than outwardly compared to the western church. You still need to address the issue with the stranger as the scriptures command,
In the Orthodox Church, unlike in some other denominations, no one is ever pressured into receiving the Eucharist (in some Roman Catholic parishes and some Anglican parishes, among others, people who sit out the Eucharist experience peer pressure not to, even if they have a good reason to not partake, but one will never experience this in the Orthodox Church.
Ok

I particularly like how the Syriac Orthodox arrange this at some parishes and cathedrals - they often distribute the Eucharist at the very end of the liturgy, after the dismissal, while the hymn Haw Nurone is sung, from the right or liturgical south side of the altar, while who have partaken or are not partaking will exit to the left or liturgical North side of the altar, collecting antidoron (the blessed bread, which is not the consecrated Body of Christ as I explained earlier but rather was historically given as a blessing to help attendees get home, and is a sacramental, like holy water, but not the sacrament itself) on the way out.
ok but not relevant to our conversation.
We don’t believe in casual communion.
ok but not relevant to our conversation.
Thus if someone doesn’t believe, and presents themselves for the Eucharist, its on them, since we have taken all reasonable precautions to ensure that those who have received the Eucharist are among us.
But what if someone does believe as those that profess Christ as their Lord and savior? You can never safeguard against Jesus command for communion. Your own people might not be worthy and you would not know. Address the stranger though.
Additionally I would add if a non-Orthodox tried to partake of the Eucharist they would probably not be able to do so as their identity would easily be discernable.
How? How can you tell if someone is in Christ or not?
And they would not likely even be rebuked but assisted; the assumption would be they had approached in error and were confused, and they would be graciously shown to the antidoron. I’m not going to explain exactly why this is because I don’t want to empower people to approach our Eucharist without authorization, but suffice it to say, we are careful (and additionally some of our priests can discern someone approaching with ill intent). Unlike the Roman Catholics, all Orthodox priests are authorized to repulse someone from the sacrament, so instances of our Eucharist being stolen, for example, by those who engage in the occult, are I would say unheard of, for I am not aware of any instance where it has happened.
Listen to you. What gives you the right to decide who is “authorized” to take communion? Who gives you the right to turn away the body of Christ outside of your church? Who gives you the right to decide who is a Christian and who is not?
That said I have no personal objection to the Assyrian Church of the East’s approach, which is to allow anyone who believes in the real presence and the Nicene Creed to partake. There is frequent intercommunion between the Assyrian Church of the East and the Chaldaen Catholics due to the situation on the ground in Iraq where nearly all Chaldeans live and also the majority of Assyrians (Chaldeans are one of the largest of the seven Assyrian tribes historically associated with the Church of the East, which unlike the others wound up mainly speaking Arabic instead of Aramaic, and the Roman Catholics persuaded most Chaldeans to join the Chaldean Catholic Church, which was an archdiocese of the Church of the East which broke away from the rest and entered into communion with Rome). Thus there are areas which are predominantly Syriac Orthodox, areas which are predominantly Church of the East, and areas that are predominantly Chaldean Catholic.

Likewise, in Turkey, the Syriac Orthodox will give the Eucharist to Roman Catholics at their parish in Constantinople, because the nearest Catholic church is some distance away, and Catholics will always give the Eucharist to any Orthodox or Assyrian Christian disposed to receive it, and other sacraments as well.

So essentially where we are now is in the process of establishing trust with the Roman Catholics to where we can reciprocate their offer of what they call Eucharistic hospitality, just as we presently do in the case of relations between the Antiochians and Syriac Orthodox and the Copts and Alexandrian Greek Orthodox.
Frankly this does answer any of the questions I posed to you. You get your pick and choose who you believe that is Christian enough to participate in your elitist communion. I am pretty sure that Christ had a much different take on this.
 
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