A confused atheist.

[Foolish]

Im an agnostic atheist but am really interested in religion, so I would apreciate any feedback on my musings.

From what I understand of Christianity, the central (not sole) principal of worshipping christ I that he sacrificed himself for us and our sins.

What I don't understand is that; many people have sacrificed themselves for greater causes in our history - why shouldn't we worship them?

 

[miamited]

Hi foolish,

You wrote: What I don't understand is that; many people have sacrificed themselves for greater causes in our history - why shouldn't we worship them?

What? You know of someone who made some sacrifice greater than the souls of all mankind?

Would you care to name a few?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Yarddog]

Im an agnostic atheist but am really interested in religion, so I would apreciate any feedback on my musings.

From what I understand of Christianity, the central (not sole) principal of worshipping christ I that he sacrificed himself for us and our sins.

What I don't understand is that; many people have sacrificed themselves for greater causes in our history - why shouldn't we worship them?

What greater causes? How many rank up there with the salvation of humanity?

 

[Deaver]

....

What I don't understand is that; many people have sacrificed themselves for greater causes in our history - why shouldn't we worship them?

Please name one.

 

[Foolish]

Sorry, when I said "greater causes" I didn't mean greater than jesus. I meant "greater causes" per se e.g. Suffragettes, the conscripted men of WWII, the people who have just died during the recent Arab spring etc.

 

[Yarddog]

Sorry, when I said "greater causes" I didn't mean greater than jesus. I meant "greater causes" per se e.g. Suffragettes, the conscripted men of WWII, the people who have just died during the recent Arab spring etc.

We don't worship men. Jesus is not just a man. He is God's Son and God.

 

[Deaver]

Sorry, when I said "greater causes" I didn't mean greater than jesus. I meant "greater causes" per se e.g. Suffragettes, the conscripted men of WWII, the people who have just died during the recent Arab spring etc.

We do recognize the sacrifice of others, through the construction of monuments, by naming parks roads, etc. after them, and many other ways.

However, from a Christian perspective true biblical worship, of the one true and living God, is to be a lifestyle, not a moment in time.

So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do everything for the glory of God. (1 Corinthians 10:31 NRSV)

Our lives are to be lives of total worship of God. When we eat, sleep, work, serve, and live from sunup to sundown, all that we do is to be in a spirit of worship of God.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The primary difference is that Jesus is the only one who rose from the dead following His sacrifice. If He merely died for a cause, no matter how noble, then he could not be considered as being intrinsically any different than any other such person. However, the core teaching of Christianity centers on His resurrection which proves that He is both God and man. Read the book of Hebrews for a fuller explanation.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

A confused atheist.

Subscribing

KJV) 1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

 

[Foolish]

We don't worship men. Jesus is not just a man. He is God's Son and God.

Yeah but that's the crux of my confusion.

I'm basically a Rational person and am really confused regarding christian thought processes in this relation: if one assumes that Jesus is god/son of god then he actually sacrificed a lot (and I mean A LOT) less than anyone who has sacrificed themselves for the greater good, as he

1 was absolutely, categorically, guaranteed that heaven existed/exists

2 that he would definitely be going to heaven when he died.

The soldiers in WWII or civil rights campaigners didn't have such guarantees in these regards.

How come jesus' sacrifice is worthy of religious worship when it seems to be less of a sacrifice than many humans have made in our history?

 

[miamited]

Hi foolish,

Then what exactly is your point. A few suffragettes suffered for the right for women to vote. I can't quite relate that to suffering for the sins of all mankind. Soldiers dying in war, while certainly a tragedy, didn't seem to make much difference in the overall operation of the world. We still have despot leaders. I'm not really familiar with this death during the Arab spring that you speak of, but that sounds like death by forces of nature. That wouldn't qualify as a sacrifice.

A sacrifice is something that you do for someone else that costs you something that you don't have to do. People being killed by the forces of nature doesn't meet this definition. However, since you're an atheist, if it would make you feel better to worship these people you can. It won't make any difference at the judgment.

God's going to hold each one accountable at the judgment for their faith. Those who have believed and trusted in the testimony of God's word and God's Son will be forgiven their sins. Those who fall under any other category won't.

My encouragement for you is to put aside your preconceptions and look into the prophecies of the Scriptures. Study them. Look into them. Daniel chapter 9 would be a great place to start.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Foolish]

The primary difference is that Jesus is the only one who rose from the dead following His sacrifice. If He merely died for a cause, no matter how noble, then he could not be considered as being intrinsically any different than any other such person. However, the core teaching of Christianity centers on His resurrection which proves that He is both God and man. Read the book of Hebrews for a fuller explanation.

Oh. That's interesting. So he's worshipped because he is god full stop, as opposed to his sacrifice?

 

[mfaust]

Yeah but that's the crux of my confusion.

I'm basically a Rational person and am really confused regarding christian thought processes in this relation: if one assumes that Jesus is god/son of god then he actually sacrificed a lot (and I mean A LOT) less than anyone who has sacrificed themselves for the greater good, as he

1 was absolutely, categorically, guaranteed that heaven existed/exists

2 that he would definitely be going to heaven when he died.

The soldiers in WWII or civil rights campaigners didn't have such guarantees in these regards.

How come jesus' sacrifice is worthy of religious worship when it seems to be less of a sacrifice than many humans have made in our history?

The sacrifice he made was not so we could be sure heaven existed... it had nothing to do with certainty or uncertainty of heaven... at least in the way you are talking about. His sacrifice was (according to the commonly held way of interpreting the scriptures) was that in the time before Christ, God commanded the Jews to make sacrifices to cover the sins of the Jews. And in the life and death of Christ, he was the ultimate and final sacrifice. Hence why he is often called the "Lamb of God". He was a type of sacrifice that would not just cover the sins of the Jews like what was being done, but he would wash away the sins of the whole world.

The idea of him dying as a sacrifice because he did or did not have faith that heaven existed is inconsequential. I mean no disrespect to you, but where you came up with that idea is a bit strange. I used to be an atheist myself and not once did such an idea ever come into my mind. What the question tells me is that whether or not you agree with Christianity, you certainly have allot more study to do.

Again, I truly mean no disrespect and I wish you the best in your search.

 

[Mark_Sam]

Im an agnostic atheist but am really interested in religion, so I would apreciate any feedback on my musings.

From what I understand of Christianity, the central (not sole) principal of worshipping christ I that he sacrificed himself for us and our sins.

What I don't understand is that; many people have sacrificed themselves for greater causes in our history - why shouldn't we worship them?

You are right in that the core of Christianity is Christ's sacrificial death and resurrection.

From a Christian POV, there is no greater sacrifice. Christ, is the Son, sent by the Father; very God in human form. The Creator sacrificed Himself for His creation, out of His love.

It was unconditional; we do not deserve the forgiveness for our sins. Yet, the eternal Judge carried out mankind's death sentence on Himself. By this, He set us free from our penalty, for all eternity.

So in this view, your third paragraph is simply not true.

 

[mfaust]

Oh. That's interesting. So he's worshipped because he is god full stop, as opposed to his sacrifice?

Because he is God in the flesh, he was able to accomplish what he did on the cross, which is to be the ultimate sacrifice. No ordinary man could have done the same thing.

And according to the scriptures, only God is worthy of our worship. Christians worship Jesus... so yeah.



EDIT: Again, please do not think I am attacking you. I really am not. But I have to ask... based on the very questions you are asking... have you actually READ the bible? I mean I understand you are an agnostic atheist, but most atheists I know have a much better grasp of the basic beliefs of Christians than what you are demonstrating. Now if you are merely going by what you "think" Christians believe, I understand and am glad you are here asking questions. But whether you agree with our faith or not, I highly suggest you read up on the very core beliefs that almost all Christians believe.

And with only the best of intentions, I say to you God bless.

 

[Foolish]

Hi miamited

The Arab spring is the phrase used to describe the uprisings in the middle east/Africa over the las 6 months or so. The person I'm referring to was a chap who set himself alight in protest about the repression of the Tunisian people. He killed himself to raise the issue of his people's plight.

I'm not proposing that these people are worthy of worship. What I'm suggesting is that these people actually made greater sacrifices than Jesus.

I suppose my point is that what Jesus did is not worthy of worship if it was centred on his sacrifice as It wasn't that much of a sacrifice compared to what average humans have done throughout history.

 

[itisdeliciouscake]

Hiya foolish.

I would say that the primary difference between Jesus and other's who have suffered for noble causes throughout the centuries would be mainly that

1.) Christ, on the cross, did in fact suffer more than any person has ever suffered
2.) Christ, on the cross, accomplished more than any person who has ever suffered

Sure, it can be admitted that there are more painful deaths than crucifixion (though, very few). But Christ's death on the cross was more than nails being driven through His hands or a crown of thorns pressed into his skull. When Jesus died on the cross the physical suffering is simply what we saw. His suffering included the full wrath of God that all mankind deserved being poured out on Him. The way that Christ's death accomplished salvation for men was that he took the wrath that God deserved and bore it Himself on the cross. Think of the anger that you yourself have at something such as human sex trafficking. Now imagine the wrath that an all-powerful and perfect God has against the sin of all humanity for everything evil thing we have done. All of that wrath was poured out on Christ on the cross. It was no light thing that Christ was about to do when He was praying in the garden before His crucifixion. He was about to 'become sin for us' before a perfectly just and righteous God.

Secondly Christ accomplished more than any other martyr in the history of mankind. Christ death on the cross accomplished salvation for eternity for an uncountable amount of people. Sure, people dying for human rights is a good thing. But what does it really win them? The freedom to speak out for 60-some years of their life? I don't wanna down-play the sacrifice that people have made for countless good causes throughout history. But do any of them even come close to what Christ accomplished? What does it matter if I can live a happy life for 60-some years? Even I spend eternity in Hell none of the rights I have that others died to give me will matter. Christ's sacrifice on the cross accomplished both the most wide-spread and valuable result ever: Eternal life for all who believe in Him.

 

[Foolish]

Hi mfaust

You said "The sacrifice he made was not so we could be sure heaven existed... "

That's not my point. My point is that when Jesus sacrificed himself he was certain that he would go to heaven, so it wasn't actually much of a sacrifice.

 

[Hentenza]

Thread moved from General Theology to Exploring Christianity.

 

[mfaust]

Hi mfaust

You said "The sacrifice he made was not so we could be sure heaven existed... "

That's not my point. My point is that when Jesus sacrificed himself he was certain that he would go to heaven, so it wasn't actually much of a sacrifice.

I get what you are saying, and my point is that it is completely inconsequential. Knowing whether or not heaven exists doesn't matter. What matters is the forgiveness of sins and being right with God. If heaven exists, I consider it a perk. Do I believe in heaven? Sure. Is that why I love God? Not one bit. Is the belief in heaven why Jesus died? Not at all. Even if noone goes to heaven and there is merely a new existence here on earth, he died so we can be made right before God. He died to wash away sin for all mankind. Going to heaven really has nothing to with it.

So his sacrifice was so great compared to anyone else because he was the only one who could do away with the sins of the world.

God bless you.