A comment beyond belief?

[ianb321red]

Richard Dawkins Says Unborn Babies With Down Syndrome Should Be Aborted; Pro-Life Group Slams 'Sick and Twisted' Comments

Dawkins speaking during the "Rock Beyond Belief" festival and quite frankly I find his comments beyond belief....

Surely no vaguely moral atheist would go along with these comments?

The thing that actually makes it worse coming from his mouth is that he usually takes the moral highground versus those of "religion"...

Surely if atheism wants to be recognised as any kind of credible worldview they need to kick him in to touch and distance itself from these types of comments?

 

[tonybeer]

Atheism isn't a worldview. It deals with one topic only, whether a God exists. There is no Church of Atheism, with Dawkins as the leader. Atheists are rarely organised, in the way many religious people are. The vast majority are just people who don't believe the claims that religions make. They can be pro-choice or pro-life (just as Christians are).

I personally wouldn't say that aborting a Down's fetus is immoral, nor would I say that it would be immoral to carry it to term. I'm not sure that with these kinds of things there is a moral answer.

 

[Paradoxum]

I believe in morality, but I don't think Dawkins is massively wrong.

I don't think you can say that they 'should' be aborted, but I don't think there's anything wrong with aborting them. I don't think it's wrong to have an abortion for most reasons.

 

[Oafman]

I'm a vaguely moral atheist, and I feel obliged to point out that Dawkins did not say that DS foetuses 'should be aborted'. When asked by a pregnant woman what she should do, he said "abort it".

He did not say that DS foetuses should be routinely aborted, as the article appears to imply. He simply offered an opinion to one woman. He even clarified his position, tweeting: "If I were a woman with a DS fetus I personally would abort. So do most women in fact. If you wouldn't, good luck to you, it's your decision."

Insisting that pregnant women must abort DS foetuses would be deeply immoral. Offering advice to one undecided woman to do so is not at all immoral.

Dawkins is a bit of an attention harlot, but there's no real reason to pick on him for this.

 

[ianb321red]

Atheism isn't a worldview. It deals with one topic only, whether a God exists. There is no Church of Atheism, with Dawkins as the leader. Atheists are rarely organised, in the way many religious people are. The vast majority are just people who don't believe the claims that religions make. They can be pro-choice or pro-life (just as Christians are).

I personally wouldn't say that aborting a Down's fetus is immoral, nor would I say that it would be immoral to carry it to term. I'm not sure that with these kinds of things there is a moral answer.

Dawkins viewpoint is basically that if you haven't got anything worthwhile to contribute in life then you don't deserve to live.

This is/ was his assessment of people with Down's syndrome, but my comment would be why would this attitude apply just to people before they are born?

 

[ianb321red]

I'm a vaguely moral atheist, and I feel obliged to point out that Dawkins did not say that DS foetuses 'should be aborted'. When asked by a pregnant woman what she should do, he said "abort it".

Basically the same thing from an underlying attitude point of view

 

[tonybeer]

Dawkins viewpoint is basically that if you haven't got anything worthwhile to contribute in life then you don't deserve to live.

I don't speak for Richard Dawkins, but I don't think that is what he is saying at all. Most of us, myself included, don't really contribute much to humanity. I'm not a Darwin/Einstein/Feynmann sadly.

He is saying that you have a choice as to whether you carry on with a pregnancy, and that DS is a valid reason to terminate the pregnancy.

This is/ was his assessment of people with Down's syndrome, but my comment would be why would this attitude apply just to people before they are born?

The same reason that abortion is not considered murder, yet killing a baby is.
A fetus is entirely reliant on the mother to sustain life. It is the choice of the mother as to whether they are happy to continue with the pregnancy or not. It's all about equal rights. A fetus does not get extra rights that a human being does not (if my neighbour is reliant on me for life, it remains my decision as to whether I will provide this for them or not).

In an ideal world, people would only get pregnant when they wanted babies, and all diseases/conditions could be cured. This will hopefully be the case one day, but it will only come about by people studying science, and not the bible.

With your beliefs, I'd guess that fetuses have souls and therefore go to heaven, so abortion isn't a problem?? Or do they go to Hell? Or neither?

 

[Robban]

I believe in morality, but I don't think Dawkins is massively wrong.

I don't think you can say that they 'should' be aborted, but I don't think there's anything wrong with aborting them. I don't think it's wrong to have an abortion for most reasons.

When a woman becomes pregnant, it is not like she lives the next 9 months hoping it will go away, she is expecting.

So is there a difference between killing it Before it is born and killing it after it is born.

Especially when the foster has been diagnozed with Down syndrome.

Just wondering, I,m not the sort who blow abortion clinics, btw.

Seeing as you the only female on this thread, as of yet.

 

[Paradoxum]

When a woman becomes pregnant, it is not like she lives the next 9 months hoping it will go away, she is expecting.

So is there a difference between killing it Before it is born and killing it after it is born.

Especially when the foster has been diagnozed with Down syndrome.

I don't know what this has to do with what I said though.

Just wondering, I,m not the sort who blow abortion clinics, btw.

Seeing as you the only female on this thread, as of yet.

Well that's good to hear.

 

[Robban]

I don't know what this has to do with what I said though.



Well that's good to hear.

Dear Paradoxum, please try to get with it,
you wrote, ".....don,t Think there is anything wrong with aborting them."

 

[ianb321red]

With your beliefs, I'd guess that fetuses have souls and therefore go to heaven, so abortion isn't a problem?? Or do they go to Hell? Or neither?

No one knows for sure, but I would classify fetuses as infants and that they would be saved on the basis that they've not developed a mature understanding of anything pertaining to the life they're living.

But of course it is a problem. Because by someone aborting the fetus for whatever reason you are still denying a potential Einstein or Darwin aren't you? And even if they're not pioneers in a particular field, just simply contributing to starting and raising a family for example is a worthwhile contribution to life in general as far as I'm concerned

 

[tonybeer]

So you could argue that from a Christian viewpoint it's better to abort a fetus, so that they go straight to heaven? I guess the same would go for murder, as you cannot kill the soul and a believing soul goes to heaven.


Yes you could be (though not in the case of a DS adult, who have a typical IQ of 50). However you could equally be creating a potential serial killer.

 

[Robban]

No one knows for sure, but I would classify fetuses as infants and that they would be saved on the basis that they've not developed a mature understanding of anything pertaining to the life they're living.

But of course it is a problem. Because by someone aborting the fetus for whatever reason you are still denying a potential Einstein or Darwin aren't you? And even if they're not pioneers in a particular field, just simply contributing to starting and raising a family for example is a worthwhile contribution to life in general as far as I'm concerned

Nothing new under the sun.

So unbelievable?

Origins Of The Pro-Choice Ideology Of "Life Not Worthy of Life" / Lebensunwertes Leben - YouTube

 

[tonybeer]

Reductio ad Hitlerum.

 

[Robban]

Reductio ad Hitlerum.

The only card you have in your hand?

Hardly a trump.

 

[Robban]

Reductio ad Hitlerum.

I did not make the video, if one sees past the Nazi element, what remains is the thinking behind and put into a book by Karl Binding and Alfred Hoche,

Which was most probably was not the origin, but probably goes way back.

 

[tonybeer]

The only card you have in your hand?

Hardly a trump.

No, but it saved typing.

I've already explained why I believe a woman should have control of her reproductive organs, and it has nothing to do with the video.

 

[Robban]

No, but it saved typing.

I've already explained why I believe a woman should have control of her reproductive organs, and it has nothing to do with the video.

It puzzles me too, that men should have so much to say about the matter.

We cannot become pregnant,

Something like the officer in a well pressed uniform, standing over a watery trench, and yelling to a bunch of recruits, "On the Count of Three you all jump into the trench."

One recruit yelled back, "No way, you jump first and we will follow."

But the issue I Think goes further, it is more about un desirables,


By just exterminating them, it is like taking the easy wayout.

I did a Quick check on Ndss website and read truth and myths of DS.

I may be odd, but I Think that the cure for sicknesses were created Before the sickness, we just have not found all the cures yet.

And if by denying those who are diagnozed DS the right to live, we never will.

 

[tonybeer]

To avoid the whole abortion part, would you choose to have children if you knew before you conceived (from say a genetic test) they would definitely have DS?

 

[Robban]

To avoid the whole abortion part, would you choose to have children if you knew before you conceived (from say a genetic test) they would definitely have DS?

A Child with DS would be a Child with special needs.

Starting a family all scenarios have to be considered,

Am I/we prepared to call it a day, the somewhat carefree unmarried Life and to put our energy into raising a family, DS or no DS.

If not, then maybe one should reconsider the whole Project.