This isn't about trust that has been abused. It's about trust that has been placed by faith in a confusing book from which emerges conflicting, argumentative doctrine.
This is a gross over-generalization, I think. In fact, there is great unity - especially concerning the core doctrines of Scripture - among Christians.
We have nothing else. Nothing is what God gives us.
Are talking about what you feel here, or what is real? God
has given us the Bible. Dispute over the meaning of its contents doesn't negate this fact.
Speak for yourself. I'm feeling very dead inside. I never wanted to live.
Well, this is very...unfortunate. Can the rain of today forbid the sunshine of tomorrow? What you feel now doesn't necessarily have to be what you
always feel.
Being caught between a miserable life and God Railroad system of Mercy and Justice is just one Hell before another, so it's not very impressive.
Wow. That's a lot unhappiness you're harboring! You don't explain what you mean here, so I can't really comment on it.
Makes it look like our existence was crafted by someone sadistic or neglectful, or less imaginative than us.
Again, you don't explain what you mean, so I can't comment. I can say, though, that I haven't found God to be as you describe Him here. Quite the opposite, actually.
We think God ought to be judged based upon what happens to us while we live on Earth Well, yes, actually, because...
rather than on the joyful and unending life that follows this one.
...most people are not destined for joyful unending life, by God's design that we be flawed, therefore providing Him justification for judging us for the flaw that He built in.
I was, of course, speaking from a Christian's perspective.
I don't think God has made us with a fatal flaw. He has made us with the capacity to truly love Him, but this necessarily entails that we be free to choose
not to love Him, which is a choice that inevitably leads to sin. We exercise this capacity, however, not God. And we are held responsible for how we do so.
If a wood carver makes a wood-carving knife, he must make it capable of carving wood. But a knife capable of carving wood can also pierce human flesh. If someone takes the wood carver's knife and uses it to kill another person, is the wood carver guilty of murder? Of course not. His intent in making the knife was never that it be used to harm people, only to carve wood. In the same way, God has made us capable of loving Him, but the same capacity to love God also enables us to hate Him. And if we hate Him, we fall into sin. Does God
make us hate Him and thus to sin? No, we make that choice of our own accord. God, then, is no more at fault for our choice to hate Him than the wood carver is at fault when someone uses his carving knife to murder someone.
He doesn't promise to keep us from all troubles, but He does promise to walk with us through them. Which is so much like having a fair weather friend who pretends not to exist. Not very supportive.
I don't follow you here. How is God walking with us in the midst of our trouble like being a "fair weather friend"? Fair weather friends do not walk with you when the going gets tough. But, I have found God to be very supportive during troubled times. He hasn't been a fair-weather friend to me.
This is an argument you present to an atheist or an agnostic. That is not what I am. I absolutely believe that God exists, but I'm a dystheist, a maltheist...a misotheist. The implications of his instructions "Believe in me, and love me; or I'll make you suffer dearly for failing to do both" are clear and more terrifying than what your talking about.
Yes, the consequences are very dire for failing to give God His due.
I've given Him a chance, I've tried to learn how this basic message is not true, but God has not shown the way to resolve how His instructions match up with being good and loving and merciful in the truest sense (meaning without the threat of violence and suffering).
I'm puzzled. It seems to me that if God was unmerciful and evil, He would give no one any chance at all to be reconciled to Himself and would torment us in the fiery depths of hell without provocation. A really awful God would selfish, and petty, and capricious. He would delight in making us miserable. But this isn't how God is. Not at all! Instead, He takes on human form and fufills the demands of His own law on our behalf so that we might escape the punishment of our sin and live eternally with Him. God provides for His children; He answers their prayers and comforts them in difficult times; He teaches them His wisdom and blesses them with His truth; He forgives us when we don't deserve it and loves us when we are His enemies. I'm sorry, but I just don't see justification for hating God in any of this.
"Doing the right thing" brought Jesus to the torment and death of the cross. In an evil world corrupted by sin, this is often the consequence of following God's commands. Darkness has no tolerance for light. If obeying God caused such pain and suffering to Christ, why are we surprised when we his followers experience the same thing?
Why do I hear Christians say then that God is intolerant of darkness, so much so that the attrition rate of people consigned to Hell is appalling compared to those who are saved?
I'm not sure how your question connects to what I wrote. God is intolerant of darkness - and darkness is intolerant of His light. This seems to me to be the proper order of things...
So many people go to hell because
that is what they prefer. They would rather run the risk of there actually being a hell than yield themselves to their Creator.
Whose supposed to be the good guy in those circumstances? Intolerance going both ways; so what?
I don't understand you here. Are you saying you think God should capitulate to evil, that He should yield to darkness? Do you believe He would be a
better God by compromising with evil?
The Lord God Almighty can't rise above it, pitch in a little more to help us through the process of cleansing ourselves?
Actually, no one is capable of self-cleansing from sin. Only God can wash away the stain of our sin. And He has - through the shed blood of His Son, Jesus Christ, on the cross. God does all the cleansing of us; all we do is receive it. I don't know what you mean, then, when you say God should "pitch in a little more to help us through the process of cleansing ourselves." God doesn't just "pitch in," He does it all!
Somewhere on this forum, a Seeker asked who is winning, God or Satan. It's not a very impressive victory if God loses 90% of people who want to be good people because He's failed to convince so many people, or failed to guide them to precisely the correct version of Christianity (out of how many sects, without even considering all the religions outside of Christianity on top of all that).
But this isn't what is happening. First of all, there is no competition between God and Satan. God knows who will choose to accept Him and He has not and will not lose a single one of them to the devil. Second, the testimony of many believers shows that God often goes to great lengths to save them. Muslims are sent dreams, cannibal tribes are sent missionaries, remotely located people are sent radio waves - and so on. God will move heaven and earth to make Himself known to those who seek Him with all their heart. Third, as far as convincing people is concerned, God has done all that is necessary to provide people with reason to believe in Him and to believe correctly. The presence of counterfeits just means one will have to actually make an effort to discern truth from falsehood.
Don't talk to me about free will, either, I already know that it's not Biblical, and Christians disagree on it anyway. Let's not waste time on that merry-go-round.
Well, I'm afraid I don't agree with your assertion that free will isn't biblical. I don't accept what you're saying about the absence of free will as a foregone conclusion, so I don't see talking about it as "a waste of time."
We are not puppets God moves about apart from our choosing to be moved. He expects us to act. Maybe He could provide some incentive, by not trying to claim credit for the good deeds that we do, and the hard work that we do against darkness? Inspired in His name, sure, but not a finger on the energy we personally burn off.
This is an odd view. The Bible tells us that God both commends us for our good works and will reward us for them. He doesn't ignore our efforts to expand His kingdom in our world. And we would have no success at all against the darkness were He not enabling us by His power to overcome it. Also, God sustains every life He creates. Whatever energy we might expend in challenging evil, then, is always ultimately made possible by God's sustaining power. I don't see, then, why God should not be credited for His integral and vital role in enabling the good we do.
My friend does not have the capacity to survive without clinging to others trying to survive drowning. God has not empowered Him
Well, this isn't what the Word of God says. Scripture declares that each believer
has been fully equipped by God to live righteously and stably as God's child. But this disparity between the truth of God's Word and the nature of our experience is at the heart of what it means to walk by faith. When one's experience seems to put the lie to God's claims, one must choose to trust God's claims, His truth, rather than what one is (or is not) experiencing. It is only as one does this that the reality of God's truth begins to be manifested in one's experience.
and yes, he waits for God to force Him into action, which even then He does not take. It doesn't matter how strong his faith is, God has all but thrown him to the wolves, necessitating a retreat to the shelter of family...it will be even more difficult for him to break free now.
Have you heard the story of the man stranded on the roof of his house during a flood? As the water rises, and the man calls out to God for help, a dingy passes by and the man in it offers to take the stranded man to safety. But, the stranded man refuses the offer, saying that God will help him. Several minutes pass by and then a large fishing boat approaches the stranded man. The driver offers to take the stranded man to safety but he is also refused. God, the stranded man explains, will help him. A short time later, with the water still rising, a helicopter hovers above the stranded man and a rescuer within offers to fly the man to safety. Again, the man refuses, saying that God would help him. Finally, the water engulfs the rooftop and the man drowns. As he is sinking into the water, the man wonders why God didn't help him.
God
does help His own. But sometimes his children act like the stranded man. And when they start to sink beneath the waves of life, they wonder where God has gone.
Someone mentioned mental illness. I know for a fact that he has debilitating disorders. He is like me, but more so. Self sufficiency is not sustainable for him, which means that he cannot excel in life for God's cause. He is always being turned more inward, more insular.
"God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." I had to put my full weight on this truth when I was struggling mightily with OCD and anxiety. And as I did, lo and behold, the truth of this verse began to be the truth of my experience. I had to trust it over what I felt and was experiencing, however. If I had simply said, "What I feel is real, not what the Bible says," I'd probably be mired in numbing drugs and endless, futile therapy like so many others I know.
It's not about just about constantly diminishing circumstances, it's about how he cannot be a strength, an oasis, a resource for others in need...
But God has been just these things for many. He certainly has been for me. We need only to walk as He has enabled and directed us to walk.
that is what he needs from others, with no respite for those others he relies on. This is a horrific thing to have to face about yourself, without being given the strength to break free of it.
And it is largely unnecessary, if the Word of God is to be believed.
[Christian Bale Tirade Voice]Oh, good for you![/Christian Bale Tirade Voice] I'm so glad God revealed himself so clearly. If I just approach the God who threatens violence and suffering while I live through misery nicely, he'll give me my wife back or give me a new one, He'll magically fix my brain, He'll make me feel normal among other fellow humans, or He'll make sure that that distinctive absence of His presence will seem like less of an empty nothingness this time around?
God has not persuaded me to renew trust in Him.
To be blunt, you don't sound even remotely willing for Him to do so. Sadly, you are the only one who is losing out by your anger toward, and mistrust of, God.
Your view of God has become profoundly skewed and warped. All you seem to be able to see is a caricature of God that justifies your anger toward Him. But this is what bitterness and anger do: they warp, and blind, and imprison the one who holds them. The truth is, whether you are willing to admit it or not, that God does love you and He can bring blessing and joy into your life. He has not withdrawn His goodness from you; you have rejected it in favor or your anger and bitterness. It doesn't sound like you're much enjoying the results. Maybe it's time to consider a different way.
Selah.
